Time for AC to GO

[Old Red]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I highly doubt that Breslow would have even considered 'ordering' Cora to 'order' Devers to play 1B, because I think it's more of a co-operative relationship than that.  I can certainly buy that Cora thought it might be better to ease Devers into the idea, and Breslow decided it was time to try the direct approach. 

What I'd really like to know is if anyone thinks the best idea would have been for Cora to go hard-ass about it, to tell Devers that unless he put on a first baseman's mitt on he was riding the pine?    

The whole crux of the matter, which I’ve thought from Day 1 is that Cora did not like the idea of Raffy at 1B, which according to Shaugnessy Cora told Shaugnessy exactly that. Now if Cora thought it would have been a good idea to put Raffy at 1B I could see going half hard ass on Raffy, but not to the point of threatening with the pine. 

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox are certainly not blameless in this, but I think when one of your best and highest paid players is resistant to authority it's going to be a big problem, period.  It was a problem with Manny, they got through it for years and won 2 rings with him, but in 2008 enough became enough and they traded him.  

In 2003, infamously, the Sox put Manny on waivers.  At the 2005 trade deadline it was reported that the Sox were offering Manny in trade.  I was actually at the game on July 31, 2005 when Manny emerged from the dugout in the bottom of the 8th to a big ovation, having not been traded, and produced a game-winning pinch-hit RBI single.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

26 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The Sox are certainly not blameless in this, but I think when one of your best and highest paid players is resistant to authority it's going to be a big problem, period.  It was a problem with Manny, they got through it for years and won 2 rings with him, but in 2008 enough became enough and they traded him.  

In 2003, infamously, the Sox put Manny on waivers.  At the 2005 trade deadline it was reported that the Sox were offering Manny in trade.  I was actually at the game on July 31, 2005 when Manny emerged from the dugout in the bottom of the 8th to a big ovation, having not been traded, and produced a game-winning pinch-hit RBI single.

Manny was actually traded, along with minor league pitcher Jon Lester, for ARod in December '03, but the deal was blocked by the Players' Association when Alex tried to take a paycut, presumably so the Sox could invest the savings on other upgrades.

We're all glad that one fell through.

[Old Red]

30 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The Sox are certainly not blameless in this, but I think when one of your best and highest paid players is resistant to authority it's going to be a big problem, period.  It was a problem with Manny, they got through it for years and won 2 rings with him, but in 2008 enough became enough and they traded him.  

In 2003, infamously, the Sox put Manny on waivers.  At the 2005 trade deadline it was reported that the Sox were offering Manny in trade.  I was actually at the game on July 31, 2005 when Manny emerged from the dugout in the bottom of the 8th to a big ovation, having not been traded, and produced a game-winning pinch-hit RBI single.

I agree to a point, but the authority piece is where I have the big hang up. Brez wanted Raffy at 1B, but Cora did not, so to say it was a big problem could be stretching things. Cora did not see Raffy at 1B as being what’s best for the team, and to me that was strictly a baseball decision. As I’ve said before that if Cora had wanted Raffy at 1B I would completely agree with you, but it appears he didn’t, and maybe Cora told Raffy that,and that’s why Raffy went at Brez like he did. Just a thought.

[Bellhorn04]

15 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I agree to a point, but the authority piece is where I have the big hang up. Brez wanted Raffy at 1B, but Cora did not, so to say it was a big problem could be stretching things. Cora did not see Raffy at 1B as being what’s best for the team, and to me that was strictly a baseball decision. As I’ve said before that if Cora had wanted Raffy at 1B I would completely agree with you, but it appears he didn’t, and maybe Cora told Raffy that,and that’s why Raffy went at Brez like he did. Just a thought.

When I say it was a big problem I'm looking through the hindsight filter of Raffy being traded.  However it went down, the team clearly thought Raffy had become a big problem.

[Old Red]

15 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

When I say it was a big problem I'm looking through the hindsight filter of Raffy being traded.  However it went down, the team clearly thought Raffy had become a big problem.

Brez no doubt saw Raffy as a problem especially when Raffy told him to do his job, and JH no doubt saw this as a chance to get out from beneath that Raffy contract.

[notin]

49 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I agree to a point, but the authority piece is where I have the big hang up. Brez wanted Raffy at 1B, but Cora did not, so to say it was a big problem could be stretching things. Cora did not see Raffy at 1B as being what’s best for the team, and to me that was strictly a baseball decision. As I’ve said before that if Cora had wanted Raffy at 1B I would completely agree with you, but it appears he didn’t, and maybe Cora told Raffy that,and that’s why Raffy went at Brez like he did. Just a thought.

I see you’re still putting words in Cora’s mouth, largely because it fits your theory.  Of course, Cora might not actually agree with it.  

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The Sox are certainly not blameless in this, but I think when one of your best and highest paid players is resistant to authority it's going to be a big problem, period.  It was a problem with Manny, they got through it for years and won 2 rings with him, but in 2008 enough became enough and they traded him.  

In 2003, infamously, the Sox put Manny on waivers.  At the 2005 trade deadline it was reported that the Sox were offering Manny in trade.  I was actually at the game on July 31, 2005 when Manny emerged from the dugout in the bottom of the 8th to a big ovation, having not been traded, and produced a game-winning pinch-hit RBI single.

Manny left in 2008 because he was 36 and wanted one more juicy pay package.   The manny being manny stuff was just an extra reason to say goodbye.  

[Bellhorn04]

22 hours ago, Old Red said:

I’ve been away, because I had a cancerous tumor removed from my neck in Portland. It certainly isn’t because the Red Sox are losing.

I hope that takes care of the issue for you and it's all good going forward.

[Bellhorn04]

11 minutes ago, notin said:

I see you’re still putting words in Cora’s mouth, largely because it fits your theory.  Of course, Cora might not actually agree with it.  

We're all just playing the guessing game here...

[Maxbialystock]

6 minutes ago, notin said:

I see you’re still putting words in Cora’s mouth, largely because it fits your theory.  Of course, Cora might not actually agree with it.  

I'm convinced Cora loved having Raffy as his full time DH because his hitting was excellent, he never missed a game, and he never made an error fielding. 

But I also think Breslow had a good reason for wanting Raffy to play 1b.  And guess who makes the deals/trades?  

I also think Raffy dug in his heels because he was promised he could stay at 3b.  So far he has just DH'd for the Giants, and it's very unlikely he will regain 3b.  

This looks to me like a pretty good deal for the Giants, some short term pain for the Sox, but also in the end the right move.  Bregman needs to stay off the IL and Mayer and Anthony need to develop as reliable MLB lefty bats.  Meanwhile, the money saved--and then some--can be spent on pitching.  

[Old Red]

8 minutes ago, notin said:

I see you’re still putting words in Cora’s mouth, largely because it fits your theory.  Of course, Cora might not actually agree with it.  

What words did I put in Cora’s mouth?Cora has said that he didn’t talk to Raffy about playing 1B, and wasn’t going to. That’s a fact. According to Shaugnessy Cora told him that the reason he didn’t talk to Raffy about playing 1B was, because he didn’t think Raffy would be good at 1B. That’s also a fact. what facts do you have to contradict either one. Don’t you you think Cora would have wanted Raffy at 1B if he thought that was what’s best for the team. The fact that he didn’t even approach Raffy about it should say everything unless you want to look in a completely different direction.

[Old Red]

6 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We're all just playing the guessing game here...

True, and I’m fully aware that Cora could be doing nothing more than playing good cop out front, but behind the scenes could be saying, and doing things completely different.

[Old Red]

11 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I hope that takes care of the issue for you and it's all good going forward.

Thanks Bell.

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, Old Red said:

True, and I’m fully aware that Cora could be doing nothing more than playing good cop out front, but behind the scenes could be saying, and doing things completely different.

It's really hard for Cora or Breslow or any of them to just flat out tell us what they really think, because if they say the wrong thing we'll hang them for it!  Twilight of his career, bridge year, full throttle...

Cora made that statement about the 'third base promise' coming from Bloom, and he has taken plenty of flak for saying that.

I don't blame these guys for being very careful what they say... 

[dannycater]

Just now, Maxbialystock said:

I'm convinced Cora loved having Raffy as his full time DH because his hitting was excellent, he never missed a game, and he never made an error fielding. 

But I also think Breslow had a good reason for wanting Raffy to play 1b.  And guess who makes the deals/trades?  

I also think Raffy dug in his heels because he was promised he could stay at 3b.  So far he has just DH'd for the Giants, and it's very unlikely he will regain 3b.  

This looks to me like a pretty good deal for the Giants, some short term pain for the Sox, but also in the end the right move.  Bregman needs to stay off the IL and Mayer and Anthony need to develop as reliable MLB lefty bats.  Meanwhile, the money saved--and then some--can be spent on pitching.  

No, this is not short term pain and it's still not the right move. Go back to the start of your post--It wasn't just Cora loving Raffy full-time DH it was Raffy himself he made a great adjustment and settled in after a rough start to the season as a full-time DH. He was perfectly placed, and like you said no fielding errors. Look, you got this guy who is making a fortune and is the marquee hitter on the team. There is zero reason for Breslow to push anything or even Cora if it were the case. Raffy I think was taking some groundballs anyway to stay fresh but if he wasn't good enough to play 3rd, then the Sox felt he was perfect at DH--then Breslow caused all of this...to not even get back quality players in the trade made it even worse than Betts trade as at least you got Verdugo (head case or not) and I guess Wong (who was super last year and crap this year). You can all feel what you feel about clubhouse cancer, effect whatever--Raffy wasn't killing the clubhouse, he was killing the baseball for Sox which is what the 300 mil purchased. Raffy may not have been a first-class individual but he was doing his job. And the Sox traded him at without a doubt the dumbest time ever and worse right after the highs of beating the Yankees. Incredibly daft timing and certainly nothing to brag about or be happy about from the Sox small market approach to winning.

[mvp 78]

3 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The Sox are certainly not blameless in this, but I think when one of your best and highest paid players is resistant to authority it's going to be a big problem, period.  It was a problem with Manny, they got through it for years and won 2 rings with him, but in 2008 enough became enough and they traded him.  

In 2003, infamously, the Sox put Manny on waivers.  At the 2005 trade deadline it was reported that the Sox were offering Manny in trade.  I was actually at the game on July 31, 2005 when Manny emerged from the dugout in the bottom of the 8th to a big ovation, having not been traded, and produced a game-winning pinch-hit RBI single.

Sox should have kept Devers for 6 more seasons too.