Time for AC to GO

[dannycater]

51 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Those big contracts say nothing about learning English.  Plus with all that dough Raffy and Ohtani can afford interpreters. 

I've lived in Germany, Italy, South Korea, and Saudi Arabia.  I did OK in German and was not bad in French (high school and college), but failed utterly with Italian, Korean, and Arabic.  

What experience do you have with foreign languages in foreign lands?  

 

None, I have never been out of the country...However, I know many a person who live in LA County who won't learn a word of English and they've been here forever. Look I get the other side, but I'm actually talking more about both Ohtani and Devers--you are making your living because of American fans paying your salaries and you are being covered by English-speaking mainstream announcers/broadcasters..I'm not saying you don't continue using an interpreter for interviews overall, I'm saying make an attempt to learn and who knows you say something funny in English and guess what now more people are loving that charm. Tiant used broken English but was a always a hysterically funny interview at times because he tried. What's the harm of taking a class and learning the English language a bit. Taylor Swift goes to concerts across the World and goes out of her way to learn words, phrases in other languages to show appreciation for their fanship.

[Maxbialystock]

6 minutes ago, dannycater said:

None, I have never been out of the country...However, I know many a person who live in LA County who won't learn a word of English and they've been here forever. Look I get the other side, but I'm actually talking more about both Ohtani and Devers--you are making your living because of American fans paying your salaries and you are being covered by English-speaking mainstream announcers/broadcasters..I'm not saying you don't continue using an interpreter for interviews overall, I'm saying make an attempt to learn and who knows you say something funny in English and guess what now more people are loving that charm. Tiant used broken English but was a always a hysterically funny interview at times because he tried. What's the harm of taking a class and learning the English language a bit. Taylor Swift goes to concerts across the World and goes out of her way to learn words, phrases in other languages to show appreciation for their fanship.

I like your posts too much to disagree further.  I'm going to learn Japanese or get an interpreter to write a letter to Ohtani to tell him to get off his freaking ass.  I can skip Spanish.  Raffy is now the Giants responsibility.  

[Maxbialystock]

Let me see now.  The Sox are up 6 -0 and Cora should get all the credit because he made up the batting order and sent Giolito to the mound.

This game does not, however, compensate for all those lousy lineups Cora put together, to say nothing of the zillions of wrong pitchers he sent in plus his consummate failure to leave starters on the mound for at least 120 pitches.  

[dannycater]

I learned French in high school, I still know some of the basic stuff, and a few French Canadians along the way that I've met I think were impressed a bit that I did know phrases, and understood even when they were talking French to a friend in person. 

[dannycater]

Sox still have 6 innings to blow it. 

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Old Red said:

Bad names? I know you did say he was insubordinate.

No, I did not. Please stop this.

I said Cora might be viewed that way, if he was told to ask/tell Devers to play 3B, but refused to do what his bass said, but I did not know if he was told to do so, or not.

If he was told to and did not, it's text book insubordination.

I'm not sure Devers was ever asked or told to play 1B, other than through the media. If he was never told to do it, it's not insubordination. My position is we don't know. I have said that if they told Devers to and he refused, then it would be insubordination, but as always, you hear what you want to hear or twist what I say into something not true. It's what you do, even after being corrected.

I do think he should have volunteered to do whatever is best for the team, like he openly did in SF, and maybe he did in private with the Sox. We don't know jack, so I'm not calling him any names, except a "great hitter."

 

[moonslav59]

18 minutes ago, dannycater said:

I learned French in high school, I still know some of the basic stuff, and a few French Canadians along the way that I've met I think were impressed a bit that I did know phrases, and understood even when they were talking French to a friend in person. 

I took beginning French 3 times in my life. I had to drop it in college, after one semester, because I know I was going to fail. I took beginning Latin for the second semester to meet my graduation criteria.

You keep brining up examples of people who did it, and maybe it wasn't easy for some of them, but I do know it is extremely difficult for some adults to learn a new language, myself included, and I had incentive to learn it, too.

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Old Red said:

I would never confuse you with someone else even in my weakened state of mind.

You are currently confused, too.

[dannycater]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

I took beginning French 3 times in my life. I had to drop it in college, after one semester, because I know I was going to fail. I took beginning Latin for the second semester to meet my graduation criteria.

You keep brining up examples of people who did it, and maybe it wasn't easy for some of them, but I do know it is extremely difficult for some adults to learn a new language, myself included, and I had incentive to learn it, too.

all good, I think one aspect of having an interpreter all the time is you feel like as a fan a disconnect..Or at least I never could quite get what Raffy was really saying..maybe that part is..Lost in Translation.

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Old Red said:

You did say Raffy was being insubordinate before.  I  had already answered you on this before also. I gave the same response, and you gave the same response back. If its Wrong to side with Cora, and Raffy on this than so be it, but I’ve taken the same stance since day 1. Like I said I’m not a Cora guy, but Cora knows more about baseball than Brez IMO.

You still don't get it.

I know what side you on. I'm fine with it.

My point was about it being okay or not for a manager to refuse to do what his boss asked him to do.

Again, we don't know if he was asked or not, so don't go now claiming I'm calling Cora insubordinate, like you said I did with Devers.

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, dannycater said:

all good, I think one aspect of having an interpreter all the time is you feel like as a fan a disconnect..Or at least I never could quite get what Raffy was really saying..maybe that part is..Lost in Translation.

It's something you live with.

One time, I was out walking dog in the streets of Mexico City, and a kid came up and asked if my dog bites, as she reached out to pet him. I said, "Si, si," thinking she asked if it was okay to pet him, You should have seen her arm T-Rex in a flash.

I wish I learned Spanish better than I did. I know I tried. I know I was motivated. I just couldn't do it, for the life of me. Now, I teach English and see some people have the same issues I had with Spanish.

[Old Red]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

You still don't get it.

I know what side you on. I'm fine with it.

My point was about it being okay or not for a manager to refuse to do what his boss asked him to do.

Again, we don't know if he was asked or not, so don't go now claiming I'm calling Cora insubordinate, like you said I did with Devers.

I’ve already answered this. In this case yes. Brez, you, and all the others who thought putting Raffy at 1B was a good idea I think it was a bad idea , and so apparently so did Cora. A different time in a different situation I might give a different answer, but it would never be a blanket yes, or no.

[Old Red]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

No, I did not. Please stop this.

I said Cora might be viewed that way, if he was told to ask/tell Devers to play 3B, but refused to do what his bass said, but I did not know if he was told to do so, or not.

If he was told to and did not, it's text book insubordination.

I'm not sure Devers was ever asked or told to play 1B, other than through the media. If he was never told to do it, it's not insubordination. My position is we don't know. I have said that if they told Devers to and he refused, then it would be insubordination, but as always, you hear what you want to hear or twist what I say into something not true. It's what you do, even after being corrected.

I do think he should have volunteered to do whatever is best for the team, like he openly did in SF, and maybe he did in private with the Sox. We don't know jack, so I'm not calling him any names, except a "great hitter."

 

#1 I wasn’t even talking about today’s discussion, and we had the insubordination discussion days ago when I said Raffy hadn’t been insubordinate, because Cora never even talked about moving to 1B with Raffy. I also know what insubordinate means, and for the final time Raffy was doing what was best for the team being the DH.

[moonslav59]

19 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I’ve already answered this. In this case yes. Brez, you, and all the others who thought putting Raffy at 1B was a good idea I think it was a bad idea , and so apparently so did Cora. A different time in a different situation I might give a different answer, but it would never be a blanket yes, or no.

My god! You keep missing the question, despite me telling you over and over.

Being a good or bad choice is a fine question, but not the one I asked, like 3 times, now.

Take it away from this issue.

Is it okay or not for a manager to not do what his boss tells him to do? (Not that Cora did this.) You have not answered this question- only the question I'm not asking you is being answered over and over.

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, Old Red said:

#1 I wasn’t even talking about today’s discussion, and we had the insubordination discussion days ago when I said Raffy hadn’t been insubordinate, because Cora never even talked about moving to 1B with Raffy. I also know what insubordinate means, and for the final time Raffy was doing what was best for the team being the DH.

This has nothing to do with my question, and I actually feel and said the same thing: It's not insubordination, if he was never told to play 1B. We don't know if he was asked/told or not.

The point being made on this discussion is that it doesn't matter if Devers, Cora, you and the world think he's better at DH and not 1B. It's about should a player and manager do what their boss tells them to do, if they indeed were told to do whatever it is.

Now, if your argument is that it was right for Nazi soldiers not to follow orders and not kill who they were told to kill, that's one thing, but you are not making a case for this being that type of situation that demands insubordination, if indeed either one of them was told to do play 1B or tell another to play 1B. (Again, we don't know.)

We know you think Devers at 3B was your position for years, then you flipped to DH only and not 1B. It looks like Cora agreed. Nobody is disputing this or asking you your position on this. It's a different question.

I'm not sure I can ever word it in a way you can understand the simple question being asked, so don't bother trying to answer it.

 

[Old Red]

20 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

My god! You keep missing the question, despite me telling you over and over.

Being a good or bad choice is a fine question, but not the one I asked, like 3 times, now.

Take it away from this issue.

Is it okay or not for a manager to not do what his boss tells him to do? (Not that Cora did this.) You have not answered this question- only the question I'm not asking you is being answered over and over.

I keep answering the question, and you keep over analyzing. Why?  I already said it would never be a blanket yes, or no answer to me, and it would depend on the situation. 

[moonslav59]

9 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I keep answering the question, and you keep over analyzing. Why?  I already said it would never be a blanket yes, or no answer to me, and it would depend on the situation. 

No, you never answered the actual question, and we know the situation presented in this case.

[Old Red]

18 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This has nothing to do with my question, and I actually feel and said the same thing: It's not insubordination, if he was never told to play 1B. We don't know if he was asked/told or not.

The point being made on this discussion is that it doesn't matter if Devers, Cora, you and the world think he's better at DH and not 1B. It's about should a player and manager do what their boss tells them to do, if they indeed were told to do whatever it is.

Now, if your argument is that it was right for Nazi soldiers not to follow orders and not kill who they were told to kill, that's one thing, but you are not making a case for this being that type of situation that demands insubordination, if indeed either one of them was told to do play 1B or tell another to play 1B. (Again, we don't know.)

We know you think Devers at 3B was your position for years, then you flipped to DH only and not 1B. It looks like Cora agreed. Nobody is disputing this or asking you your position on this. It's a different question.

I'm not sure I can ever word it in a way you can understand the simple question being asked, so don't bother trying to answer it.

 

For all intents, and purposes JH is really Cora’s boss, so let’s start there. Nazi soldiers?🤭🙈. I said in the beginning that when Raffy signed his contract he was promised by the RED SOX he would be the Red Sox 3B for the foreseeable future, and that’s what Raffy went on. In the very beginning Cora said he wasn’t surprised by Raffy’s reaction, and neither was I when Raffy was told he had to move off 3B. It shouldn’t have surprised anyone else either, but it sure did. I didn’t think the Red Sox would move Raffy off 3B this soon, but Brez changed that. I had no problem with Raffy moving to DH, but only with the way it was handled. I also thought any idea of moving Raffy to 1B was a bad move any time I heard it not only this year, but past years as well, which was often on here. Like I said if you go by JH is really Cora’s boss it changes every thing.

[Old Red]

6 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

No, you never answered the actual question, and we know the situation presented in this case.

It’s my answer, and I’m sticking to it.🤓

[moonslav59]

Yup, and the answer to 2+2 = A.

[notin]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

I’ve already answered this. In this case yes. Brez, you, and all the others who thought putting Raffy at 1B was a good idea I think it was a bad idea , and so apparently so did Cora. A different time in a different situation I might give a different answer, but it would never be a blanket yes, or no.

No one really knows what Cora thought of the idea.  All we know is he was afraid/unwilling to bring it up with Devers.  Cora did, however, say he planned to have that discussion with Devers in the future, strongly suggesting he was not really all that opposed to the idea…

[Hugh2]

3 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I took beginning French 3 times in my life. I had to drop it in college, after one semester, because I know I was going to fail. I took beginning Latin for the second semester to meet my graduation criteria.

You keep brining up examples of people who did it, and maybe it wasn't easy for some of them, but I do know it is extremely difficult for some adults to learn a new language, myself included, and I had incentive to learn it, too.

When I went into the military I had to take a test called the DLAB which measures your ability to learn a new language; most adults fail it.

the older you get, the harder it becomes.  Learning a new language isn’t for everyone when you get to adulthood.  Honesty, I don’t blame people for not having the patience too.  Honestly given the current climate in this country I probably wouldn’t want to either if I was in their shoes; if I was, I’d make my money and be out.

ive traveled many places, and what i have found is the vast majority of the worlds countries are very multi lingual.  We are the exception here in America, at least when it comes to the developed world. 
 

i personally don’t understand why people think it’s a big deal.  Dudes weren’t born here, they’re working here. Maybe if they plan on trying to stay learning the language would make more sense but some of these guys move back home in the offseason and when their careers are over, this is a job for them.

[Maxbialystock]

4 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

No, I did not. Please stop this.

I said Cora might be viewed that way, if he was told to ask/tell Devers to play 3B, but refused to do what his bass said, but I did not know if he was told to do so, or not.

If he was told to and did not, it's text book insubordination.

I'm not sure Devers was ever asked or told to play 1B, other than through the media. If he was never told to do it, it's not insubordination. My position is we don't know. I have said that if they told Devers to and he refused, then it would be insubordination, but as always, you hear what you want to hear or twist what I say into something not true. It's what you do, even after being corrected.

I do think he should have volunteered to do whatever is best for the team, like he openly did in SF, and maybe he did in private with the Sox. We don't know jack, so I'm not calling him any names, except a "great hitter."

 

SF is a fresh start with a team and city who seem to have embraced him.  So of course he wants to be grateful and do anything to get wins.  But my guess is that right now they really just need his bat--just like the Sox.  

I tend to defend Raffy because he was a terrific DH this season when the Sox needed him to be and because he was lied to about staying at 3b.  

I defend Cora because he persuaded Raffy to embrace DH and didn't ask him to play 1b.

And I defend Breslow for acquiring Bregman (and Narvaez, Chapman, and Crochet).   I think he wronged Raffy, but I think the last thing a CBO needs to be is a buddy to the players.  Also, as you pointed out, once 1b opened up, moving Devers to 1b made financial sense because Yoshida can only DH this season.  

His job is to hire, fire, negotiate contracts, be responsive to JH and any others over him, and to communicate effectively with his manager.  All those jobs are daunting, so it makes sense to let the manager talk to the players.  

[moonslav59]

53 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

When I went into the military I had to take a test called the DLAB which measures your ability to learn a new language; most adults fail it.

the older you get, the harder it becomes.  Learning a new language isn’t for everyone when you get to adulthood.  Honesty, I don’t blame people for not having the patience too.  Honestly given the current climate in this country I probably wouldn’t want to either if I was in their shoes; if I was, I’d make my money and be out.

ive traveled many places, and what i have found is the vast majority of the worlds countries are very multi lingual.  We are the exception here in America, at least when it comes to the developed world. 
 

i personally don’t understand why people think it’s a big deal.  Dudes weren’t born here, they’re working here. Maybe if they plan on trying to stay learning the language would make more sense but some of these guys move back home in the offseason and when their careers are over, this is a job for them.

There is scientific reasons why adults have a much harder time than children. Maybe because Devers is a "man-child" it should have been easier. LOL!

My sister married a gut from Hong Kong and lived there for 22 years. She learned about 4 words.

[notin]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

There is scientific reasons why adults have a much harder time than children. Maybe because Devers is a "man-child" it should have been easier. LOL!

My sister married a gut from Hong Kong and lived there for 22 years. She learned about 4 words.

“Get out, you b@st@rd!!”

 

Those 4?

[Maxbialystock]

5 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

It's something you live with.

One time, I was out walking dog in the streets of Mexico City, and a kid came up and asked if my dog bites, as she reached out to pet him. I said, "Si, si," thinking she asked if it was okay to pet him, You should have seen her arm T-Rex in a flash.

I wish I learned Spanish better than I did. I know I tried. I know I was motivated. I just couldn't do it, for the life of me. Now, I teach English and see some people have the same issues I had with Spanish.

I'm one of six siblings.  By far our smartest is my sister who was a phi betta kapa in math before she went to med school (UVA) and residency (NYC) and became a doctor.  She lived in Germany for 4 years as a kid (ages 5-8 and 9-10).  She took German in college.  She passed a German language exam as a requirement for her medical degree.  When she went back to Germany with her husband (an Army guy), she could not speak German.   Her husband knew a lot less than she, but he was fearless.  So whenever they want to a store where no one spoke English, he did the talking, sort of.  She would then tell him what the storekeeper had said, and he would say or ask something further.   

Given our population, I should have learned Spanish, but did not.   One son's not bad at it. One daughter is fluent and was in the Peace Corps in Bolivia.  Another son is fairly fluent in German aber das ist alles.  

I think we Americans are spoiled because people from so many other countries have learned English.  It's closest to a universal language.  

 

[moonslav59]

29 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

I'm one of six siblings.  By far our smartest is my sister who was a phi betta kapa in math before she went to med school (UVA) and residency (NYC) and became a doctor.  She lived in Germany for 4 years as a kid (ages 5-8 and 9-10).  She took German in college.  She passed a German language exam as a requirement for her medical degree.  When she went back to Germany with her husband (an Army guy), she could not speak German.   Her husband knew a lot less than she, but he was fearless.  So whenever they want to a store where no one spoke English, he did the talking, sort of.  She would then tell him what the storekeeper had said, and he would say or ask something further.   

Given our population, I should have learned Spanish, but did not.   One son's not bad at it. One daughter is fluent and was in the Peace Corps in Bolivia.  Another son is fairly fluent in German aber das ist alles.  

I think we Americans are spoiled because people from so many other countries have learned English.  It's closest to a universal language.  

 

Wow, I'm one of 6, too. (5 sisters!)

My eldest sister was the valedictorian and our school and went on to Yale. My next sister went to Yale, too. I had some big heels to follow.

My mom was from Germany and dreamed in 3 languages. None of us kids learned a language.

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, Maxbialystock said:

I'm one of six siblings.  By far our smartest is my sister who was a phi betta kapa in math before she went to med school (UVA) and residency (NYC) and became a doctor.  She lived in Germany for 4 years as a kid (ages 5-8 and 9-10).  She took German in college.  She passed a German language exam as a requirement for her medical degree.  When she went back to Germany with her husband (an Army guy), she could not speak German.   Her husband knew a lot less than she, but he was fearless.  So whenever they want to a store where no one spoke English, he did the talking, sort of.  She would then tell him what the storekeeper had said, and he would say or ask something further.   

Given our population, I should have learned Spanish, but did not.   One son's not bad at it. One daughter is fluent and was in the Peace Corps in Bolivia.  Another son is fairly fluent in German aber das ist alles.  

I think we Americans are spoiled because people from so many other countries have learned English.  It's closest to a universal language.  

 

once, when in Europe, i had friend from The Netherlands tell me that everyone has to learn English because those that speak English won't learn anything else. not untrue.

[Bellhorn04]

19 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I didn't call it insubordination.

Thanks for actually answering my question and saying you are fine with a manager not doing what his boss wants him to do, just because you agree with the position the manager took.

Interesting parallel here - you have always supported Grady leaving Pedro in in 2003, because you thought Pedro was our best shot, even though it was reported that when Theo met with Grady before the game Theo told him Pedro had to be pulled at 105 pitches regardless.

[Bellhorn04]

I highly doubt that Breslow would have even considered 'ordering' Cora to 'order' Devers to play 1B, because I think it's more of a co-operative relationship than that.  I can certainly buy that Cora thought it might be better to ease Devers into the idea, and Breslow decided it was time to try the direct approach. 

What I'd really like to know is if anyone thinks the best idea would have been for Cora to go hard-ass about it, to tell Devers that unless he put on a first baseman's mitt on he was riding the pine?