Time for AC to GO

[notin]

20 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Maybe we vastly overrated the 2025 team.

More likely, it was another year when we needed a lot more things to go right than wrong, and once again it just didn't happen.

More likely, Cora is vastly overvalued. 
 

Hes the common link in a long chain of mediocrity.  Even his supporters defend him with “but he can win if you give him a roster anyone can win with,” as if meeting expectations is some sort of super power.

He’s been around almost as long as Francona, with nowhere near the track record.  Heck his predecessor was fired for being more successful (and Cora may have had a hand in that as well)…

[Bellhorn04]

11 minutes ago, notin said:

More likely, Cora is vastly overvalued. 
 

Hes the common link in a long chain of mediocrity.  Even his supporters defend him with “but he can win if you give him a roster anyone can win with,” as if meeting expectations is some sort of super power.

He’s been around almost as long as Francona, with nowhere near the track record.  Heck his predecessor was fired for being more successful (and Cora may have had a hand in that as well)…

Who put the 2022-2025 rosters together?  Who traded Betts for nothing and signed Story and Yoshida and traded Sale for Grissom and signed Kluber and Giolito and Buehler?  Who develops our pitchers?  Who coaches our hitters?

 

 

[mvp 78]

8 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Who put the 2022-2025 rosters together?  Who traded Betts for nothing and signed Story and Yoshida and traded Sale for Grissom and signed Kluber and Giolito and Buehler?  Who develops our pitchers?  Who coaches our hitters?

What is Cora expected to do with a 25 year old CFer that can play defense? You can keep coaching these guys, but it comes down to what happens the second they get into the org. If they don't have the basics of flyball tracking by the time they are in MLB, what are we even doing here? I can't be mad at Cora if these guys don't know the basics. They should have learned that by now! 

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

42 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah but we can also list a pile of reasons that the record is not necessarily his fault, things like trading Betts for nothing, signing Story and Yoshida for big money, lousy pitcher signings and so on.

For sure, the chaos that has been the sox front office has certainly contributed.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

25 minutes ago, notin said:

More likely, Cora is vastly overvalued. 
 

Hes the common link in a long chain of mediocrity.  Even his supporters defend him with “but he can win if you give him a roster anyone can win with,” as if meeting expectations is some sort of super power.

He’s been around almost as long as Francona, with nowhere near the track record.  Heck his predecessor was fired for being more successful (and Cora may have had a hand in that as well)…

Bingo!

[Bellhorn04]

Just to engage in some total speculation because why not, maybe it's something like Bregman wanting to play for the Sox because of Cora that helps keep Cora around.

Somebody produced a poll here recently that had Cora high on the list of managers players would like to play for.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

On 6/26/2025 at 8:44 AM, Jasonbay44 said:

While this is true, the front office has put together .500 rosters or worse for him to manage; especially in the rotation. 

It's just that simple.  

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

19 hours ago, cp176 said:

I’m not sure how I feel about a number of things relating to this team from Cora to Duran etc.  With respect to Cora, I only can make a personal judgement by what I see on the field.  He looks at best mediocre to me at what he does.  Duran has always been a favorite of mine but If he isn’t making contact with the baseball and getting on base, he is just not as valuable as he could be.  I don’t need everybody to try to hit the ball out of the park.  I find myself getting excited when some of our guys hit a foul ball these days and that includes Duran.

How exactly is it a  manager issue when one of the most important players on the team has stopped being able to put the bat on the ball? This lineup is terrible, not sure how anyone expects a manager to overcome this.   

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Who put the 2022-2025 rosters together?  Who traded Betts for nothing and signed Story and Yoshida and traded Sale for Grissom and signed Kluber and Giolito and Buehler?  Who develops our pitchers?  Who coaches our hitters?

 

 

Who did it before Cora?  
 

Cora has been around through 4 CBOs.  At what point do we stop blaming everyone else around him and look at him?  Or are you trying to argue that everyone else everywhere in the organization are the incompetent ones and Cora is just the victim here? 
 

And can we stop blaming the downfall of the organization on the Sale trade, as if no other team has made trades that didn’t work out?  Wouldn’t the Yankees have been much better off holding on to Fitts and Weissert over the nothing they got from Verdugo?

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, notin said:

And can we stop blaming the downfall of the organization on the Sale trade, as if no other team has made trades that didn’t work out?

Exaggerate much?  The Sale trade is just one item on a fairly lengthy list.

The downfall started around the same time they decided that Betts was expendable.  

[notin]

48 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Just to engage in some total speculation because why not, maybe it's something like Bregman wanting to play for the Sox because of Cora that helps keep Cora around.

Somebody produced a poll here recently that had Cora high on the list of managers players would like to play for.

Let’s not completely overlook Bregman’s highest AAV in team history contract that allowed him to control his own free agency.  It’s a fairly nice enticement.

 

Since 2018, the Sox are barely over .500 under Cora (and that didn’t count 2020, as he was not here).  That includes his 2019 season, in which the team won 24 fewer games than the year before (second largest difference in team history).  If the roster was a great one in 2018, what made it a .500-ish roster in 2019?

What exactly does Cora bring to the table that gives his fanbase such dedication?

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, notin said:

Since 2018, the Sox are barely over .500 under Cora (and that didn’t count 2020, as he was not here).  That includes his 2019 season, in which the team won 24 fewer games than the year before (second largest difference in team history).  If the roster was a great one in 2018, what made it a .500-ish roster in 2019?

Well, you could start with most of the rotation falling apart due to injury and our runs allowed increasing by 181, I suppose. 

You know this stuff, you just don't like Cora.

[notin]

1 minute ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Exaggerate much?  The Sale trade is just one item on a fairly lengthy list.

The downfall started around the same time they decided that Betts was expendable.  

The downfall started in 2019, when they lost 24 more games that the season previous.  Betts and Sale were both on that team.

 

And don’t accuse me of exaggerating when you brought the Sale trade up in the first place.  Sale was on the roster from 2019-2023, and how much did he help during that 5 season stretch?

[Bellhorn04]

8 minutes ago, notin said:

And don’t accuse me of exaggerating when you brought the Sale trade up in the first place.  Sale was on the roster from 2019-2023, and how much did he help during that 5 season stretch?

Please.  You said "can we stop blaming the downfall of the organization on the Sale trade", and now you're mad because I called that exaggeration.  I can't help it if the mention of that trade always gets you worked up.

 

[notin]

5 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, you could start with most of the rotation falling apart due to injury and our runs allowed increasing by 181, I suppose. 

You know this stuff, you just don't like Cora.

Sale, Price, ERod and Porcello combined for 655 IP in 2018.  That same 4 combined for 631 IP in 2019.   Thats not some huge difference. 6 IP per pitcher.  One start.
 

They had Eovaldi for a full year in 2019, and he barely pitched.  Still he gave them more innings than he did in 2018 since he was only there for 2 months.  I didn’t count him because it was fever going to be fair…

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, notin said:

Sale, Price, ERod and Porcello combined for 655 IP in 2018.  That same 4 combined for 631 IP in 2019.   Thats not some huge difference. 6 IP per pitcher.  One start.
 

They had Eovaldi for a full year in 2019, and he barely pitched.  Still he gave them more innings than he did in 2018 since he was only there for 2 months.  I didn’t count him because it was fever going to be fair…

We gave up 181 more runs in 2019 than in 2018.  The pitching was light years worse.  If you want to blame that on Cora, that's certainly your prerogative.

[notin]

7 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Please.  You said "can we stop blaming the downfall of the organization on the Sale trade", and now you're mad because I called that exaggeration.  I can't help it if the mention of that trade always gets you worked up.

 

You’re right. All you did was mention it.   After all, it was on a laundry list of things you pointed out that worked against Cora.  But you also, by saying maybe this roster isn’t as good as we thought, introduced the dangerous notion that “whatever goes wrong, it isn’t Cora.” (And I limited you to introducing the idea.  Don’t run with that.)  

So I will again ask a simple question - what does Cora bring to the table? 

[notin]

5 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We gave up 181 more runs in 2019 than in 2018.  The pitching was light years worse.  If you want to blame that on Cora, that's certainly your prerogative.

Just like you blaming it on injured pitchers who threw only 24 fewer IP, I suppose…

[Bellhorn04]

2 hours ago, notin said:

You’re right. All you did was mention it.   After all, it was on a laundry list of things you pointed out that worked against Cora.  But you also, by saying maybe this roster isn’t as good as we thought, introduced the dangerous notion that “whatever goes wrong, it isn’t Cora.” (And I limited you to introducing the idea.  Don’t run with that.)  

So I will again ask a simple question - what does Cora bring to the table? 

You know as well as I do that it's impossible to quantify the value of a manager.  What does Bruce Bochy bring?  Well, 4 rings.  A bunch of crappy seasons too.

The real question here is why does Cora still have his job?  Why have Henry, Kennedy et al decided to retain him, why did they sign him to an extension, why the reports that he's probably going to end up in the front office?

"He must have compromising pictures of Henry" is of course the fallback joke.  When this was used a while ago, another poster, I think it was Randy Red Sox, came back with a great line:

"Any picture of Henry is compromising". 

 

 

[Old Red]

10 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

To me, the biggest issue I've seen with Cora was his inability to even ask Devers to play 1B.

If he was told to do it, but didn't, it makes it worse.

Many of us don't even think it should have been a gentle question asked, but a demand.

That's pretty major, but I don't have any other issues with the way he manages the team.

To me Cora not asking Devers to play 1B was not an issue at all. Cora didn’t think Raffy  would be a good 1B, and if Cora didn’t think Raffy would be a good 1B he didn’t even ask, and he definitely wouldn’t demand it like you, and others thought he should. Pretty major it was, but opposite than how you meant it. Shaugnessy actually talked to Cora on this, and Shaugnessy said he even argued with Cora about Raffy, but Cora gave a big NO on the idea of Raffy to 1B for the reasons I gave above just as I assumed all along.

[Duran Is The Man]

2 hours ago, notin said:

More likely, Cora is vastly overvalued. 
 

Hes the common link in a long chain of mediocrity.  Even his supporters defend him with “but he can win if you give him a roster anyone can win with,” as if meeting expectations is some sort of super power.

He’s been around almost as long as Francona, with nowhere near the track record.  Heck his predecessor was fired for being more successful (and Cora may have had a hand in that as well)…

 

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Who put the 2022-2025 rosters together?  Who traded Betts for nothing and signed Story and Yoshida and traded Sale for Grissom and signed Kluber and Giolito and Buehler?  Who develops our pitchers?  Who coaches our hitters?

 

 

I believe both of these to be true. but i pin most of the blame on Henry for his "new direction".

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We gave up 181 more runs in 2019 than in 2018.  The pitching was light years worse.  If you want to blame that on Cora, that's certainly your prerogative.

and why was it worse? same guys.

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

and why was it worse? same guys.

Lots of teams have WS hangovers. It doesn't mean you blow up the core. 

[notin]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

You know as well as I do that it's impossible to quantify the value of a manager.  What does Bruce Bochy bring?  Well, 4 rings.  A bunch of crappy seasons too.

The real question here is why does Cora still have his job?  Why have Henry, Kennedy et al decided to retain him, why did they sign him to an extension, why the reports that he's probably going to end up in the front office?

"He must have compromising pictures of Henry" is of course the fallback joke.  When this was used a while ago, another poster, I think it was Randy Red Sox, came back with a great line:

"All pictures of Henry are compromising". 

 

 

If his value is not quantifiable, why is he so important?

Is it because he won a ring after inheriting a two-time defending AL East champion? And then proceeded to maintain .500 baseball for 6 years?

Is his value in Henry still liking him?  The same John Henry who didn’t want to keep Mookie?

You’re expressing plenty of dedication to a man who has guided the Sox to a 453-439 record since 2018.  It’s easy to list off bad moves and blame injuries - and I agree those things dont help.  But they’re not unique to Boston, either.

And stop copping out with “you just don’t like Cora.”  I don’t think he is a good MLB manager.  That’s hardly a condemnation.  I don’t think I’d be a good one either, and I certainly don’t hate myself for it.

So why the dedication?

[notin]

46 minutes ago, Old Red said:

To me Cora not asking Devers to play 1B was not an issue at all. Cora didn’t think Raffy  would be a good 1B, and if Cora didn’t think Raffy would be a good 1B he didn’t even ask, and he definitely wouldn’t demand it like you, and others thought he should. Pretty major it was, but opposite than how you meant it. Shaugnessy actually talked to Cora on this, and Shaugnessy said he even argued with Cora about Raffy, but Cora gave a big NO on the idea of Raffy to 1B for the reasons I gave above just as I assumed all along.

You might be putting words in Cora’s mouth.  Did he avoid asking Devers because he didn’t think Devers could play first?  Or because he didn’t want to ask Devers to make another change after the first time went so awkwardly?

[notin]

35 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

 

I believe both of these to be true. but i pin most of the blame on Henry for his "new direction".

And that’s a fair point, but why go in a new direction under old management?  They’ve replaced people above Cora multiple times; they only replaced Cora when he got suspended…

[mvp 78]

8 minutes ago, notin said:

You might be putting words in Cora’s mouth.  Did he avoid asking Devers because he didn’t think Devers could play first?  Or because he didn’t want to ask Devers to make another change after the first time went so awkwardly?

Why did he avoid asking Devers about DH while both of them were in Fort Myers prior to ST starting? Bregman had already been signed at that point. Both of them were together at JetBlue. 

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

What if your aunt had balls?

We can "what if" all day. The bottom line is that he's been a .500 manager outside of two seasons.

How is this a what if?

Everyone here has been highly critical of the teams built by or GMs since 2019, and then we act like the manager mismanaged a team that should have been winning.

[notin]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Why did he avoid asking Devers about DH while both of them were in Fort Myers prior to ST starting? Bregman had already been signed at that point. Both of them were together at JetBlue. 

Right.

In fact, Cora never said he didn’t think Devers could play 1b, which he really shouldn’t say anyway, especially after moving him off third for defensive reasons.  Cora did say he preferred Devers at DH, but that’s not necessarily the same thing.  And Cora also said he planned on having ongoing discussions with Devers about 1b.  To me, he was just avoiding another awkward conversation.  Which is not good, because it’s part of his job to have those awkward conversations…

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Yaz Fan Since 67 said:

How exactly is it a  manager issue when one of the most important players on the team has stopped being able to put the bat on the ball? This lineup is terrible, not sure how anyone expects a manager to overcome this.   

The famous, "He should sit down and tell the player to be more selective at the plate." comes to my mind as the types of suggestions I've heard in the past.