The .500 Boston Red Sox

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

and he got the same thing in the Devers trade. just unbelievably poor return for such a successful, established hitter. 

I'm going to hold off on that return just yet. Hicks is probably garbage. I don't have much to say about Tibbs at the moment but Harrison has a lot of potential. 

[Duran Is The Man]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I'm going to hold off on that return just yet. Hicks is probably garbage. I don't have much to say about Tibbs at the moment but Harrison has a lot of potential. 

what did the Nationals get for a little over a year of Soto? and then what the Padres got from the Yankees for a year of Soto? all given up for a rental. Breslow give up a high-caliber player, signed for another 8 years, for literally nothing. either Breslow has no clue as to what he's doing, or John Henry McScrooge had some serious buyer's remorse on Raffy.

[FredLynn]

15 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

and he got the same thing in the Devers trade. just unbelievably poor return for such a successful, established hitter. 

Devers has become a liability  in the field. That means he is a DH. His contract is an overpay for a DH. Aside from his crap attitude its an overpay they got rid of. I say good riddance. We can do better with that money-if Henry will actually spend it.

Its actually a miracle we got anything at all besides getting rid of his contract in return for ditching the prima donna.

[notin]

14 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

They swapped Chris Sale (27M, 4.30 ERA, 2.1 fWAR '23) for Lucas Giolito (18M, 4.88 ERA, 0.9 fWAR '23).

They went cheap and it didn't work out. Should have spent more and brought in Sonny Gray and we'd be complaining less. 

They made moves that didn’t work out.  Thats going to happen.  
 

At least the Sale trade 1) wasn’t solely about money and 2) made an attempt to get back talent. 
 

We’ve seen free agents not work out before.  Thankfully Giolito has struggled on a very short contract.  Ditto Buehler.   Both deals end soon and the Sox move on.  Neither will force extreme measures like David Price’s contract did when it went south.  And the Sox aren’t packaging cheap talent to entice teams to gamble on Story or Yoshida, either. While some moves have failed, the Sale debacle was at lest the type of move you want to see, right?

[Bellhorn04]

40 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

They swapped Chris Sale (27M, 4.30 ERA, 2.1 fWAR '23) for Lucas Giolito (18M, 4.88 ERA, 0.9 fWAR '23).

They went cheap and it didn't work out. Should have spent more and brought in Sonny Gray and we'd be complaining less. 

Yes.  And in addition they paid $17 million of Sale's salary.  Some might say they paid $17 million for Grissom.  In either case the combined transactions cost $35 million or so for 2024. 

I can see reasons why they made the Sale trade, but it irks me when people talk about it like it was a virtual no-brainer. 

[mvp 78]

33 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

what did the Nationals get for a little over a year of Soto? and then what the Padres got from the Yankees for a year of Soto? all given up for a rental. Breslow give up a high-caliber player, signed for another 8 years, for literally nothing. either Breslow has no clue as to what he's doing, or John Henry McScrooge had some serious buyer's remorse on Raffy.

A lot of GM's now look at it similar to the BTV model and that some high dollar contracts are simply underwater because of their length. There were a lot of quotes going around about how a lot of FO types were impressed with what the Sox got back because of how Devers's contract isn't going to age well. It's the typical fight between a new way of thinking and a more traditional way of thinking which is what Posey is trying to balance in SF. 

[mvp 78]

23 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yes.  And in addition they paid $17 million of Sale's salary.  Some might say they paid $17 million for Grissom.  In either case the combined transactions cost $35 million or so for 2024. 

I can see reasons why they made the Sale trade, but it irks me when people talk about it like it was a virtual no-brainer. 

It wasn't a no-brainer. When you go back to the day he was traded, many of us said "this could look really bad if Sale goes out and shoves this year. Grissom doesn't really have a defensive position." 

[Maxbialystock]

On 6/24/2025 at 9:44 AM, mvp 78 said:

I agree with retooling. This team, even if could sneak into the third playoff spot, isn't going to go on some postseason run. It's not good enough. The starting pitching isn't there. The bullpen is going to be haggard by the time September rolls around. The offense has more holes than one of my dad's 40 year old suits. The defense would let the team down at too many crucial moments that there's little chance they could win many close games down the stretch. 

The problem with this team is roster construction. They need 3 starting pitchers, 4 relievers and to turn over a substantial portion of the offense. The bones of this team just aren't good enough. 

The Sox payroll, $192M, is ranked 13th in MLB, and $73M of that is on the IL.  So the Sox active payroll is $105M, ranked 19th.  In 2019 the Sox Payroll was the highest in MLB.   So I think it is unarguable that Breslow is being asked to do more with less.  

On the other hand, when badly missed Bregman returns (early July), the Sox lineup will be a very decent Bregman 3b, Story SS, Mayer 2b, Gonzalez 1b, Narvaez C, Anthony LF, Rafaela CF, Abreu RF, and Ref/Yoshida at DH.  That lineup will have good hitting and good defense if they can stay healthy.   I am assuming that rookies Mayer and especially Anthony will improve at the plate.   

The big problem is the pitching.  Right now Crochet and Bello (yes, Bello) are the only reliable starters although Giolito has gone 18 innings in his last 3 starts while giving up 5 ER.  Buehler looks awful, and Dobbins and others are on the IL.  The bullpen has turned back into pumpkins.  

Given all of the above and despite some bad moves, I like what Breslow is doing.   He just needs more time and money on the pitching.    I also like those 3 rookies--Campbell, Mayer, and Anthony--courtesy of the CB regime.  I think he also gets credit for Bello and Abreu.   

 

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

But he has to be judged on total results, and those are not good.

That is a big part of the equation, and the "total" is not in, yet,

[Maxbialystock]

18 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Agreed. We can't expect to get better than 40-40 with no Devers.

All teams have injuries and hopes tied to returning IL players.

I'd rather we be sellers than stand pat, at the deadline, but I'm also dead set against trading top young players and prospects for a 2 month rental or two.

Sounds familiar? YUP!

Sox payroll is currently $192M, ranked 13th in MLB.  It was the highest in MLB during DD's time in Boston.

Of that $192M, $73M is on the IL, plus other payees are also not on the active roster.  The active roster payroll is $105M, 19th in MLB.  

You could be right about Devers and 40-40, but that's only because the pitching stinks.  When it's good, the Sox can be very good.   

Who do you plan on selling?  Bello?  Bregman?  Crochet?  Anthony?  Mayer?  Campbell?  Narvaez?  Rafaela?  Abreu?  

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

That is a big part of the equation, and the "total" is not in, yet,

No it isn't, but 1.5 seasons are in at 1 game under .500, and the prognosis for the rest of 2025 isn't looking good right now.

[moonslav59]

7 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Sox payroll is currently $192M, ranked 13th in MLB.  It was the highest in MLB during DD's time in Boston.

Of that $192M, $73M is on the IL, plus other payees are also not on the active roster.  The active roster payroll is $105M, 19th in MLB.  

You could be right about Devers and 40-40, but that's only because the pitching stinks.  When it's good, the Sox can be very good.   

Who do you plan on selling?  Bello?  Bregman?  Crochet?  Anthony?  Mayer?  Campbell?  Narvaez?  Rafaela?  Abreu?  

I'm not sure I want us to be buyers, due to over-pricing that is worse than off season trades. My idea of deadline buying is the Beeks for Nate and Aldo Ramirez for Schwarber type deals, if at all, and assuming we are still in the race. If our rotation is still in shambles at the deadline, I'm selling, everything not tied down plus Duran.

Maybe we do a little of both, but I do not want to pay big for 2 month rentals.

 

[moonslav59]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

No it isn't, but 1.5 seasons are in at 1 game under .500, and the prognosis for the rest of 2025 isn't looking good right now.

I totally get why people are pissed. I am, too.

I get why Brez is getting the blame, and he is at fault for the bad moves, most notably Sale, Buehler and Devers, but I'm not going to sit here and say I loved almost everything he's done, including way more good deals than bad, farm building and a much greater focus on pitching, then say fire him, because the deals I liked are not working.

I know, I know, you guys are probably thinking, "Fire Moonslav, too!"

I don't think he's made more bad moves than good, and the bad moves he made all had legitimate reasons for doing so.

Here's a novel idea: let's blame the players.

 

[dgalehouse]

Essentially, the Sox are still trying to get back to where they were before the asinine decision to fire Dombrowski. But giving up on the season at this point is not something any fan should do. All of the opposing teams have big problems themselves. There is always a chance. 

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

Essentially, the Sox are still trying to get back to where they were before the asinine decision to fire Dombrowski. But giving up on the season at this point is not something any fan should do. All of the opposing teams have big problems themselves. There is always a chance. 

Unfortunately the Sox are in the same position they've been every year since 2022 with the trade deadline looming - it's not clear which direction to go in.  And the results of the last 3 trade deadlines all stunk.

[notin]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Unfortunately the Sox are in the same position they've been every year since 2022 with the trade deadline looming - it's not clear which direction to go in.  And the results of the last 3 trade deadlines all stunk.

Again, the direction for this year is already chosen.  They’ve already started selling.  
 

Sure they might make some Rhys Hoskins/Josh Bell/Josh Naylor rental acquisition .  But they likely move Duran and possibly Chapman, Wilson and maybe even Hicks if he’s healthy. 

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, notin said:

Again, the direction for this year is already chosen.  They’ve already started selling.  

OK, that's your take on the Devers trade, which I understand.  But it's not what we getting from the media reports, and in theory they could make a couple of moves that would give them a realistic shot at the playoffs.  I'm not saying that's what'll happen.  I would expect the Sox front office is undecided and are watching the game results just like us. 

[Bellhorn04]

35 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

Essentially, the Sox are still trying to get back to where they were before the asinine decision to fire Dombrowski. But giving up on the season at this point is not something any fan should do. All of the opposing teams have big problems themselves. There is always a chance. 

Denny, my belief is that anyone who is in here posting is not a giver-upper.  Someone who has truly given up has lost interest in even following the team, and they're not posting on a Sox message board.

We're Sox obsessives, they're a big part of our life on this planet, and that's why we're here.

This place has a lot of cathartic value for me.  I vent some frustration and get it out of my system.  

And as soon as the first pitch of today's game I'll be following along like always.

[mvp 78]

49 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Sox payroll is currently $192M, ranked 13th in MLB.  It was the highest in MLB during DD's time in Boston.

Of that $192M, $73M is on the IL, plus other payees are also not on the active roster.  The active roster payroll is $105M, 19th in MLB.  

You could be right about Devers and 40-40, but that's only because the pitching stinks.  When it's good, the Sox can be very good.   

Who do you plan on selling?  Bello?  Bregman?  Crochet?  Anthony?  Mayer?  Campbell?  Narvaez?  Rafaela?  Abreu?  

The problem with the "active roster" argument:

1. He signed an injured Sandoval at 9M

2. He traded Devers and his 12M was part of the current season performance

3. Bregman's 25M will be back on the active roster at the end of next week

4. Masa' 18M was able to DH just fine in ST, but they decided to send him to AAA because of his throwing

5. He traded for Hicks's 12M and has him playing in AAA even though he was healthy enough for SF

[Bellhorn04]

Now, on the other hand, we do have our fair share of armchair CBOs here, and we are already hearing plenty of talk about who we should sell off.  So it goes.

[mvp 78]

38 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I know, I know, you guys are probably thinking, "Fire Moonslav, too!"

We've put you on irrevocable waivers every season, but you've never been claimed. You're just going to have to stick around with us. 

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Now, on the other hand, we do have our fair share of armchair CBOs here, and we are already hearing plenty of talk about who we should sell off.  So it goes.

Breslow has said they are buyers. If they are still selling guys, it's so that they can continue to compete this season. He believes they will win more games without Devers than they did with him. 

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

Breslow has said they are buyers. If they are still selling guys, it's so that they can continue to compete this season. He believes they will win more games without Devers than they did with him. 

The only way they can win more without Devers is by making some adds.

 

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

The only way they can win more without Devers is by making some adds.

 

Add players while giving up the pieces that don't fit. Duran isn't working here, but he'll fit elsewhere. He still has a lot of trade value. If they were to dump Wilson AND Chapman, I think the team would be going in the wrong direction if they were trying to reach the playoffs. If they are trying to build for the future, it wouldn't be the worst idea. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, Duran Is The Man said:

what did the Nationals get for a little over a year of Soto? and then what the Padres got from the Yankees for a year of Soto? all given up for a rental. Breslow give up a high-caliber player, signed for another 8 years, for literally nothing. either Breslow has no clue as to what he's doing, or John Henry McScrooge had some serious buyer's remorse on Raffy.

The Nationals traded Soto with 2.3 years remaining, not 1.3 years. That extra year made the return for Washington MASSIVE.

Devers was traded with more control, but also with some $280mill in guaranteed deals, which can be a pro and a con…

[notin]

11 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

The problem with the "active roster" argument:

1. He signed an injured Sandoval at 9M

2. He traded Devers and his 12M was part of the current season performance

3. Bregman's 25M will be back on the active roster at the end of next week

4. Masa' 18M was able to DH just fine in ST, but they decided to send him to AAA because of his throwing

5. He traded for Hicks's 12M and has him playing in AAA even though he was healthy enough for SF

You’ve combined Hicks and Harrison into one pitcher.

Harrison is in Worcester, true.  But he doesn’t make $12.5mill; he makes the league minimum.  
 

Hicks does make $12.5mill, but he’s on the Injured List with some sort of toe injury…

[mvp 78]

2 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

what did the Nationals get for a little over a year of Soto? and then what the Padres got from the Yankees for a year of Soto? all given up for a rental. Breslow give up a high-caliber player, signed for another 8 years, for literally nothing. either Breslow has no clue as to what he's doing, or John Henry McScrooge had some serious buyer's remorse on Raffy.

The reason the Sox didn't get a massive haul is because the massive amount of dollars attached to the contract. 

[mvp 78]

18 minutes ago, notin said:

You’ve combined Hicks and Harrison into one pitcher.

Harrison is in Worcester, true.  But he doesn’t make $12.5mill; he makes the league minimum.  
 

Hicks does make $12.5mill, but he’s on the Injured List with some sort of toe injury…

 

[mvp 78]

 

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

23 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

He'll turn 38 before the 2026 season, which is younger than Jansen was, when we did not extend him.

If he keeps this up, I'm all for bringing him back for 1 more season. I'd have been fine with bringing Jansen back for 1 more, too.

chapman is also one of the guys that would bring the best return on the trader front. Just sign him again in the off season if you like him.