Red Sox (Bello) vs Giants (Roupp): 6/21/25, 4:05pm

[dannycater]

9 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

The Deversless lineup still has talent and hope.

My position is it got worse and wasn't great before.

I like our pitching and D, but don't want to put undo pressure on them to be at their very best, a;most nightly.

I think we have some secondary prospects that are blocked and good enough to get us help with the line-up and maybe another decent SP'er, if one has not stepped up in the next 5 weeks.

It got dramatically worse in that Devers is a reliable RBI bat...his last game was quite similar when he beat the Yanks...one big blow cost the Sox on Saturday...It will go down as another tragicially stupid trade by the Henry soccer gang.

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, dannycater said:

It got dramatically worse in that Devers is a reliable RBI bat...his last game was quite similar when he beat the Yanks...one big blow cost the Sox on Saturday...It will go down as another tragicially stupid trade by the Henry soccer gang.

Let's not get carried away - he didn't 'beat the Yanks'.  

[dannycater]

16 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Let's not get carried away - he didn't 'beat the Yanks'.  

LOL, the game was 2-0...you really going to post that his HR was meaningless based on Sox throwing a shutout?...you homer in low-scoring games, all makes a difference, having the cushion makes a difference. Stupid post (the post, not you, to be clear).

[notin]

48 minutes ago, dannycater said:

It got dramatically worse in that Devers is a reliable RBI bat...his last game was quite similar when he beat the Yanks...one big blow cost the Sox on Saturday...It will go down as another tragicially stupid trade by the Henry soccer gang.

It looks more like Devers forcing the issue.   This wasn’t for stupid reasons like dealing Betts was…
 

 

[dannycater]

14 minutes ago, notin said:

It looks more like Devers forcing the issue.   This wasn’t for stupid reasons like dealing Betts was…
 

 

hey notin, long time...love your posts over the years...I think what I laugh at is "forcing the issue." I can see actions and attitude that can cause that..except here's the thing--he was under contract for how many years? Who has control, the team or the player? To me, he can pout and hit 30 jacks and drive in 100 RBI and have a high OBP/OPS...who gives a s*** about his "effect" on clubhouse..it's not like the team is .700, and oh yeah, at DH he was destroying ball and Sox have been on a pretty good run...

[Bellhorn04]

44 minutes ago, dannycater said:

LOL, the game was 2-0...you really going to post that his HR was meaningless based on Sox throwing a shutout?...you homer in low-scoring games, all makes a difference, having the cushion makes a difference. Stupid post (the post, not you, to be clear).

I didn't say it was meaningless.

But saying he 'beat the Yanks', that's over the top.

[dannycater]

Poor Manny he disrupted the 2004 and 2007 clubhouses...and it killed them both years...NOT

[dannycater]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

I didn't say it was meaningless.

But saying he 'beat the Yanks', that's over the top.

over the top, sure, but I can dissect a baseball game and you can say it's a defensive play, a strikeout, a pitching performance, an error, there are like 7,000 things that affect a team winning and losing...hitting a HR is instant offense and in low scoring games in today's MLB of exit velocity and upper cuts, it's a big thing. So over the top, sure.

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, dannycater said:

hey notin, long time...love your posts over the years...I think what I laugh at is "forcing the issue." I can see actions and attitude that can cause that..except here's the thing--he was under contract for how many years? Who has control, the team or the player? To me, he can pout and hit 30 jacks and drive in 100 RBI and have a high OBP/OPS...who gives a s*** about his "effect" on clubhouse..it's not like the team is .700, and oh yeah, at DH he was destroying ball and Sox have been on a pretty good run...

I care about the effect on the clubhouse.

Do you think there's no such thing as negative clubhouse effects?

 

[dannycater]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

I care about the effect on the clubhouse.

Do you think there's no such thing as negative clubhouse effects?

 

Okay, let's look at it another way...in the history of MLB, do you know how many clubhouses had personalites, players who hated each other--the 1970s Oakland A's led the league in drama...who cares..it's talent and what you do on the field that counts...worrying about poor Devers "affecting" young guys is silly. They are not impressionable kids, they are adults who have lives, make money, get contracts to support their families for years to come...worrying about "dissension" is as overrated as anything in sports...

[mvp 78]

19 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I care about the effect on the clubhouse.

Do you think there's no such thing as negative clubhouse effects?

 

We haven’t heard any stories about there being a real negative impact on the clubhouse. If there was, we would have heard more anecdotes than “he was upset at Campbell” which nobody else knew about, so he apparently kept it to himself and maybe just told the FO. 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, dannycater said:

It got dramatically worse in that Devers is a reliable RBI bat...his last game was quite similar when he beat the Yanks...one big blow cost the Sox on Saturday...It will go down as another tragicially stupid trade by the Henry soccer gang.

I'm fine with people being optimistic or throwing more blame on Devers than Brez and the FO, but trying to minimize his influence on our offense or overhyping his "slump" since Bregman got hurt is unnecessary at best and revisionist history at worst.

Besides, that so-called slump saw him hit .739 (still above the league OPS) over just a small 21 game sample size.

We don't need to knock down what Devers did for our offense to have hope we can still compete. We need tor recognize it and do something about it. Pretending it is not a factor and criticizing the very thing Devers was great at is just what Brez & Co wants fans to feel and do.

We lost our best bat over the last 7-8 years. There is no sugarcoating that fact. I'm fine with thinking maybe the kids and some vets can and will step it up: just don't downsize what Devers meant to our offense. 

[dannycater]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

I'm fine with people being optimistic or throwing more blame on Devers than Brez and the FO, but trying to minimize his influence on our offense or overhyping his "slump" since Bregman got hurt is unnecessary at best and revisionist history at worst.

Besides, that so-called slump saw him hit .739 (still above the league OPS) over just a small 21 game sample size.

We don't need to knock down what Devers did for our offense to have hope we can still compete. We need tor recognize it and do something about it. Pretending it is not a factor and criticizing the very thing Devers was great at is just what Brez & Co wants fans to feel and do.

We lost our best bat over the last 7-8 years. There is no sugarcoating that fact. I'm fine with thinking maybe the kids and some vets can and will step it up: just don't downsize what Devers meant to our offense. 

moon, this is one of the best posts I've ever seen...ever...

[moonslav59]

16 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

We haven’t heard any stories about there being a real negative impact on the clubhouse. If there was, we would have heard more anecdotes than “he was upset at Campbell” which nobody else knew about, so he apparently kept it to himself and maybe just told the FO. 

I'm not hearing many glowing accounts of how he impacted other teammates play. Not hearing many "We will miss him," either.

After Manny was shown the door, we did hear some grumblings, but I'm not sure how long it took for them to come out.

It does nobody any good to talk badly about Devers, now. I get how hearing nothing is not evidence he was a bad influence on our younger players, but I sure hear a lot about what great influences guys like Bregman are from players' mouths.

How can watching your star player dogging it not be a bad influence in the clubhouse?

How can reading how your star player is upset being "asked to play e very position," when everyone knows he was only asked to play 1B- something very common for ex-3Bmen NOT be a negative influence on the clubhouse- spoken or unspoken?

[notin]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm not hearing many glowing accounts of how he impacted other teammates play. Not hearing many "We will miss him," either.

After Manny was shown the door, we did hear some grumblings, but I'm not sure how long it took for them to come out.

It does nobody any good to talk badly about Devers, now. I get how hearing nothing is not evidence he was a bad influence on our younger players, but I sure hear a lot about what great influences guys like Bregman are from players' mouths.

How can watching your star player dogging it not be a bad influence in the clubhouse?

How can reading how your star player is upset being "asked to play e very position," when everyone knows he was only asked to play 1B- something very common for ex-3Bmen NOT be a negative influence on the clubhouse- spoken or unspoken?

The most irksome part is he decuded to leap into Victim Mode rather than help cover for an injured teammate.  I can’t look at that at anything but remarkably selfish…

[moonslav59]

26 minutes ago, notin said:

The most irksome part is he decuded to leap into Victim Mode rather than help cover for an injured teammate.  I can’t look at that at anything but remarkably selfish…

He not only failed to step up as a good teammate would do, but he stepped downwards.

[jdc69]

3 hours ago, dannycater said:

Okay, let's look at it another way...in the history of MLB, do you know how many clubhouses had personalites, players who hated each other--the 1970s Oakland A's led the league in drama...who cares..it's talent and what you do on the field that counts...worrying about poor Devers "affecting" young guys is silly. They are not impressionable kids, they are adults who have lives, make money, get contracts to support their families for years to come...worrying about "dissension" is as overrated as anything in sports...

I would think the players care more about stability, especially to start the season, than the attitude of any one player. What the FO did at the beginning of the season when signing Bregman was stupidly and easily-avoidably disruptive and I can imagine, creates an atmosphere of mistrust.

[Maxbialystock]

3 hours ago, dannycater said:

It got dramatically worse in that Devers is a reliable RBI bat...his last game was quite similar when he beat the Yanks...one big blow cost the Sox on Saturday...It will go down as another tragicially stupid trade by the Henry soccer gang.

Cannot disagree about Raffy's dinger yesterday--it won the game for the Giants.  Did it escape your notice that he did nothing to prevent the Sox from winning, 7-5, the night before?  Have you also forgotten that the Sox are currently without Bregman and Devers, their two best hitters, and are 3-2 on a dreaded WEST COAST TRIP? Without Raffy and Bregman, the Sox have scored 9 runs in 2 games against the 3d best pitching staff in MLB.  

Henry owes us nothing.  He ended the curse and then won 3 more WS titles, which makes him the best owner in Sox history and one of the best in MLB.  He did get po'd at DD when the 2019 team bombed despite the highest payroll in MLB.  Worse, fixing the 2019 team was going to cost a lot more than the 2019 payroll.  

Once Bregman was announced as the Sox 3d baseman, Raffy's departure was inevitable.  

[illinoisredsox]

1 hour ago, dannycater said:

Okay, let's look at it another way...in the history of MLB, do you know how many clubhouses had personalites, players who hated each other--the 1970s Oakland A's led the league in drama...who cares..it's talent and what you do on the field that counts...worrying about poor Devers "affecting" young guys is silly. They are not impressionable kids, they are adults who have lives, make money, get contracts to support their families for years to come...worrying about "dissension" is as overrated as anything in sports...

Those A's teams may not have liked each other, but they were united in their hatred of Charlie Finley.

[moonslav59]

8 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Once Bregman was announced as the Sox 3d baseman, Raffy's departure was inevitable.  

You never said this until he was traded.

Had Devers gladly moved to DH and asked to play 1B, when Casas went down injured, I think he'd still be here.

Maybe, he'd eventually be traded, as they viewed $31M AAV as too much for a DH/1Bman, but I seriously doubt the plan was to trade Devers. They'd have done that, last winter, before all the drama brought down his return value.

[Maxbialystock]

35 minutes ago, jdc69 said:

I would think the players care more about stability, especially to start the season, than the attitude of any one player. What the FO did at the beginning of the season when signing Bregman was stupidly and easily avoidably disruptive and I can imagine, creates an atmosphere of mistrust.

MLB players have little stability.  They get traded all the time, and a player rarely stays with one team.  A lot of players have to change positions just to get a shot at The Show.  

While I agree Breslow was heavy-handed about Bregman supplanting Raffy at 3b, I don't see an amicable way of doing that.  Raffy had played 3b for 8 years and had been promised he could stay there.  So of course he was mad.  Cora did a good job of convincing him to embrace DH, where Raffy flourished, but that also meant that Yoshida, who can only be DH, was getting $18.6 M to stay away from Boston.  In effect, the Sox were paying $48.6M for one position, DH.  

Incidentally, where are the woebegone, completely unhappy and unappreciated Sox--missing their two best hitters, Bregman and Devers-- in the standings?  Plus they are current 3-2 on a dreaded WEST COAST TRIP.  Without Bregman and Devers, they have scored 9 runs in 2 games against the 3d best pitching staff in MLB.  

That may not last, but I like this team as is.  Bregman replaces Hamilton in maybe 10 days.  Story and Rafaela both have OPS's in the .800's in June.  I like Mayer and Anthony.  Also Narvarez, Duran, and Abreu.  Most of all, I like that the pitching staff seems to be getting better.  

 

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, illinoisredsox said:

Those A's teams may not have liked each other, but they were united in their hatred of Charlie Finley.

Those Yankee dugouts and clubhouses had some serious issues, at times, too. The Reggie Jackson-Billy Martin feud was on public display,

It's not all about just clubhouse feuds. Reggie was pissed, because Billy yanked him in the middle of an inning. Reggie was not complaining about being forced to play where he did not want to play. He was bitching because he was being told not to play (for part of a game.)

Big difference.

Yes, Reggie dogged it, at times, and that was not a "good example" to set. Oh, and by the way, the Yanks let Reggie walk just 2 years removed from two .900+ OPS seasons and right before he hit .907 and led the league in HRs for his new team, the following season (1982.)

I hate that we traded Devers. I hoped he was a Red Sox forevers not a Giant forevers. I'm not upset we traded him. I will be, if we sit back and do nothing to even try to replace what we just lost.

[moonslav59]

The Bregman signing was absolutely the right thing to do. We needed a big RH'd bat for years. We needed to make a major step at improving our defense, and our corner IF slots have been the very worst on D for several years running.

No doubt, we should have handled the situation better. We had our manager saying Bregman would  be a great 2Bman. We had our 3Bman clinging to the idea he was a plus defender at 3B and was promised by the old regime he "was the 3Bman." While I don't blame management for thinking and expecting a player to do what is best for the team, they have to anticipate that all players may not agree with your view on what is best, and once the saw pushback, they should have handled it better. Maybe Devers was so set in his ways, that nothing would have worked, but the reports are that Cora never even asked him to play 1B. That exposes some serious dysfunction at best or insubordination by Cora and or Devers at worst.

I've aways felt Devers could become a better defender at 1B than Casas, who sucks at D. Getting Bregman should have made his move to 1B or a DH/1B share with Casas the plan. At worst, they should have told Devers we want him to be the DH, but that 1B is on the table, and he should start practicing 1B, even before Casas got hurt. This is not hindsight babbling on my part. I've been saying this for years.

Brez, Cora and the FO dropped the ball, no doubt, but that does not take Devers off the hook. It was clear he was being belligerent and was not willing to do what was best for the team. Those Oakland and Yankee players involved in feuds were the opposite, IMO. They would give anything to win and do anything to make their team better, even with their massive egos.

[Maxbialystock]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

You never said this until he was traded.

Had Devers gladly moved to DH and asked to play 1B, when Casas went down injured, I think he'd still be here.

Maybe, he'd eventually be traded, as they viewed $31M AAV as too much for a DH/1Bman, but I seriously doubt the plan was to trade Devers. They'd have done that, last winter, before all the drama brought down his return value.

You're right.  Before the trade I loved Raffy at DH.  If Raffy had embraced 1b as he did DH, I would have been fine with that too.  Raffy was our guy.

I also read that Raffy was mad because he'd been lied to and told that, even with Bregman on the team, Raffy would keep 3b where he had played for 8 years.  Bregman would play 2b

Looking back, I now think  the well was poisoned the day Bregman was announced as the new third baseman.  Raffy was going to have to change positions not once but twice.   He said yes to the first and no to the second, partly because moving to 1b would be tricky, partly because he was one of the two best hitters on the team and had been for some time, and partly because he'd been lied to.  And maybe the language barrier played into that.  

I'm not anti-Raffy so much as I'm "let's make the best of this."  Breslow was heavy-handed with Raffy, but I sure like Narvaez, Crochet, Bergman, and Chapman.  Campbell, Mayer, and now Anthony have all been brought up.     Despite the absence of both Devers and Bregman, the Sox are hitting enough to win games.  They scored 9 runs in the last 2 games against the 3d best pitching staff.   When Bregman returns--he just started baseball activities--I like the lineup you proposed.  

The pitching is better.  

I've a Sox fan grateful that JH changed the Sox from perennial (in my case, 1949-2003) also-rans to winning 4 WS, the most of any MLB team since he arrived in 2002.  Those 4 WS teams included the best season in Sox history--just 7 years ago.  So of course I'm going to defend any CBO John Henry hires--at least until they get fired.  I think Breslow is the 5th CBO and Cora is the 6th manager.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

4 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

You're right.  Before the trade I loved Raffy at DH.  If Raffy had embraced 1b as he did DH, I would have been fine with that too.  Raffy was our guy.

I also read that Raffy was mad because he'd been lied to and told that, even with Bregman on the team, Raffy would keep 3b where he had played for 8 years.  Bregman would play 2b

Looking back, I now think  the well was poisoned the day Bregman was announced as the new third baseman.

Let's not forget that the first 2 problems in the whole sequence of problems were:

1) Devers's defensive play at 3B had some of the worst ratings in MLB over a period of years.

2) In spite of 1) Devers believed he was a good defensive player and saw no reason why he should change position. 

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

3 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm not hearing many glowing accounts of how he impacted other teammates play. Not hearing many "We will miss him," either.

After Manny was shown the door, we did hear some grumblings, but I'm not sure how long it took for them to come out.

It does nobody any good to talk badly about Devers, now. I get how hearing nothing is not evidence he was a bad influence on our younger players, but I sure hear a lot about what great influences guys like Bregman are from players' mouths.

How can watching your star player dogging it not be a bad influence in the clubhouse?

How can reading how your star player is upset being "asked to play e very position," when everyone knows he was only asked to play 1B- something very common for ex-3Bmen NOT be a negative influence on the clubhouse- spoken or unspoken?

When it comes to Devers, I have only 2 words--'Good Riddance.'

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

49 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Let's not forget that the first 2 problems in the whole sequence of problems were:

1) Devers's defensive play at 3B had some of the worst ratings in MLB over a period of years.

2) In spite of 1) Devers believed he was a good defensive player and saw no reason why he should change position. 

Devers only saw the name on the back of his jersey, not the name on the front.

[dannycater]

3 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

MLB players have little stability.  They get traded all the time, and a player rarely stays with one team.  A lot of players have to change positions just to get a shot at The Show.  

While I agree Breslow was heavy-handed about Bregman supplanting Raffy at 3b, I don't see an amicable way of doing that.  Raffy had played 3b for 8 years and had been promised he could stay there.  So of course he was mad.  Cora did a good job of convincing him to embrace DH, where Raffy flourished, but that also meant that Yoshida, who can only be DH, was getting $18.6 M to stay away from Boston.  In effect, the Sox were paying $48.6M for one position, DH.  

Incidentally, where are the woebegone, completely unhappy and unappreciated Sox--missing their two best hitters, Bregman and Devers-- in the standings?  Plus they are current 3-2 on a dreaded WEST COAST TRIP.  Without Bregman and Devers, they have scored 9 runs in 2 games against the 3d best pitching staff in MLB.  

That may not last, but I like this team as is.  Bregman replaces Hamilton in maybe 10 days.  Story and Rafaela both have OPS's in the .800's in June.  I like Mayer and Anthony.  Also Narvarez, Duran, and Abreu.  Most of all, I like that the pitching staff seems to be getting better.  

 

I made a joke of Devers traded to open up the DH spot...I'm stunned you like that option. It's dumbing down your lineup. 18.6 mil is on Henry...that he is a Castillo failure means he needs to stay away from Boston, needs to basically go away. Not embraced to open up a lineup spot...god, people are literally so rose-colored glasses in here to the point where the party line is apparently gospel. Carry on.

[dannycater]

Story's contract is perfectly fine with a lot of you I guess...he's a gamer...whatever

[dannycater]

3 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

Cannot disagree about Raffy's dinger yesterday--it won the game for the Giants.  Did it escape your notice that he did nothing to prevent the Sox from winning, 7-5, the night before?  Have you also forgotten that the Sox are currently without Bregman and Devers, their two best hitters, and are 3-2 on a dreaded WEST COAST TRIP? Without Raffy and Bregman, the Sox have scored 9 runs in 2 games against the 3d best pitching staff in MLB.  

Henry owes us nothing.  He ended the curse and then won 3 more WS titles, which makes him the best owner in Sox history and one of the best in MLB.  He did get po'd at DD when the 2019 team bombed despite the highest payroll in MLB.  Worse, fixing the 2019 team was going to cost a lot more than the 2019 payroll.  

Once Bregman was announced as the Sox 3d baseman, Raffy's departure was inevitable.  

you're right, Henry owes us nothing, Kraft owes us nothing...hey I got a great idea, let's just give up on any criticism based on championships won already...nothing matters anymore...not the 2020s in SoxLand that's for sure...B's are heading this route too....GM are the geniuses and winning doesn't matter.