Old is new again - I remodeled the offseason blueprint as the trade deadline blueprint

[Brock Beauchamp]

I've spent a few hours revamping the offseason blueprint into something more usable for the trade deadline. I'm still working out the kinks, and possibly next year, I can launch a revamped dual-purpose blueprint page.

Give it a whirl, and if you have suggestions on how to improve it, please post those ideas here!

https://talksox.com/payroll-blueprint 

[moonslav59]

I'm not for trading any top prospects for a rental.

Romero, Bleis, Cespedes and Jordan might be the highest I go for everyday players and maybe Rule 5 guys Monegro and Mullins as pitchers I'd part with. This may not be enough to get what we need, and by the deadline, I might be arguing we should be sellers or mostly sellers.

I'm fine with clearing up some logjams, but again, not for a better player who is just a rental. Trading Duran or Abreu for a multi year player who plays 2B, 1B or is a sild SP'er might be an idea. I'd even add some prospects I mentioned above to grow the return, but I'm not sure I can come up with a fit with another contending team, of a rebuilding team willing to take on guys about to start making increasing arb money.

We aren't getting anything of value for Grissom or DHam. 

While I don't have much faith that Toro/Romy can continue over .800 the rest of the way, I'm not sure trading anything valuable for a 1Bman or DH is a good idea, or if they will do better than our current platoon.

Our 2B position is jinxed. I'm convinced.

Our 5th starter is a mess, and replacing him with a solid #2 would be a huge boost. Who might that be, that won't cost us KC or Arias + Jh Garcia?

This won't be easy. We fixed ourselves into a hole, I'm not sure any GM can get us out of.

[Maxbialystock]

Pretty good framework to start with.  I agree it's important to include the salaries, but I wish you hadn't told me Story is getting $22M, $2M more than I thought he was getting.  

[moonslav59]

10 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Pretty good framework to start with.  I agree it's important to include the salaries, but I wish you hadn't told me Story is getting $22M, $2M more than I thought he was getting.  

Max, it's even worse than that. He makes $25M in 2026 and 2027, then has a $5M buyout on '28, so it's essentially $55M/2 after 2025!

You can see why I suggested a trade. With Campbell in AAA, and Bregman still on the IL, a trade now is not as worthwhile than it was when it looked like the Bregman return was going to logjam SS/2B.

[Maxbialystock]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm not for trading any top prospects for a rental.

Romero, Bleis, Cespedes and Jordan might be the highest I go for everyday players and maybe Rule 5 guys Monegro and Mullins as pitchers I'd part with. This may not be enough to get what we need, and by the deadline, I might be arguing we should be sellers or mostly sellers.

I'm fine with clearing up some logjams, but again, not for a better player who is just a rental. Trading Duran or Abreu for a multi year player who plays 2B, 1B or is a sild SP'er might be an idea. I'd even add some prospects I mentioned above to grow the return, but I'm not sure I can come up with a fit with another contending team, of a rebuilding team willing to take on guys about to start making increasing arb money.

We aren't getting anything of value for Grissom or DHam. 

While I don't have much faith that Toro/Romy can continue over .800 the rest of the way, I'm not sure trading anything valuable for a 1Bman or DH is a good idea, or if they will do better than our current platoon.

Our 2B position is jinxed. I'm convinced.

Our 5th starter is a mess, and replacing him with a solid #2 would be a huge boost. Who might that be, that won't cost us KC or Arias + Jh Garcia?

This won't be easy. We fixed ourselves into a hole, I'm not sure any GM can get us out of.

Given your consistent optimism in the past, the above just doesn't jibe.

For example, when was our 5th starter ever not a mess or near-mess? The team ERA is ranked 20th, so our 5th starter has absolutely no right to be decent.  

Story at 2b base fixes that problem.  

I don't care about Toro:  1) because he's still better than Casas was when he was hurt; 2) if he crashes, fill in with Gonzalez.  Heck, if Campbell gets his swing back, move him to 1b.  

Right now I like the team we have, especially with Abreu back tonight and maybe Bregman before the ASG.  Of course we miss Raffy, but you make a great case for Ref/Yoshida filling in.  Those 8 of 10 wins were entirely because of the pitching, especially the rotation.  When was the last time we saw that?  2018? So, yeah, a good 2d starter would be great, but I think chancy.  

As you and others have pointed out, no less than 6,428 AL teams are in the hunt for the wild card.  Fine with me.  Since 2021, the Sox really haven't been.   On top of that, this team has grown on me.  I even like he defense, the rookies, and the possibility, only that, that the pitching has turned around.   

You're to blame for my presumed giddiness.  You laid down a lineup I like, especially Yoshida/Ref at DH.  

 

[Maxbialystock]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

Max, it's even worse than that. He makes $25M in 2026 and 2027, then has a $5M buyout on '28, so it's essentially $55M/2 after 2025!

You can see why I suggested a trade. With Campbell in AAA, and Bregman still on the IL, a trade now is not as worthwhile than it was when it looked like the Bregman return was going to logjam SS/2B.

Both great points.  I let his defense, which I like, blind me to the fact that he was signed for his bat.  The best we can say about Story is that he's not Breslow's fault.  Nor is Yoshida.  Breslow is better than Bloom, plus he seems to have more money to work with.  

[moonslav59]

16 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Given your consistent optimism in the past, the above just doesn't jibe.

For example, when was our 5th starter ever not a mess or near-mess? The team ERA is ranked 20th, so our 5th starter has absolutely no right to be decent.  

Story at 2b base fixes that problem.  

I don't care about Toro:  1) because he's still better than Casas was when he was hurt; 2) if he crashes, fill in with Gonzalez.  Heck, if Campbell gets his swing back, move him to 1b.  

Right now I like the team we have, especially with Abreu back tonight and maybe Bregman before the ASG.  Of course we miss Raffy, but you make a great case for Ref/Yoshida filling in.  Those 8 of 10 wins were entirely because of the pitching, especially the rotation.  When was the last time we saw that?  2018? So, yeah, a good 2d starter would be great, but I think chancy.  

As you and others have pointed out, no less than 6,428 AL teams are in the hunt for the wild card.  Fine with me.  Since 2021, the Sox really haven't been.   On top of that, this team has grown on me.  I even like he defense, the rookies, and the possibility, only that, that the pitching has turned around.   

You're to blame for my presumed giddiness.  You laid down a lineup I like, especially Yoshida/Ref at DH.  

 

Again, I don't get giddy over 7-11 games stretches.

I said our 5th starter is a mess, but I also said we need a solid #2. It's just that our current # is not a "mess." I just think I'd feel much better calling Bello & Dobbins my 3-4's and Gio my 5th.

I am optimistic, but excuse me if I'm not giddy over Gio, either. Hell, I'm not convinced Dobbins & Bello are for real, just yet. I have no reason to think they will crash and burn, but just look at the Houck example, last season and to start this season. The possibility is still out there, even for an optimist.

I don't think Toro is better than Casas, either. Ok, better than a teenie tiny, hand-selected sample size for both of them, but I'm not buying. I'm not dissing Toro or Romy. I love what they have done, but even an optimist has to doubt this continuing. I'd bet my house on Casas having a better OPS from 2026 onwards than Romy or Toro. He's a better hitter. I don't even see a debate on this. Again, I'm fine with you thinking this, but we differ on recency sample size values as predictors of what will be going forward.

Story to 2B does fix the issue, but Bregman may not be back until August, so we have a .475 DHam at 2B and a AAAA Eaton there, now. The return of Abreu is great news, but he doesn't play 2B or 1B, and I'm not for moving Rafaela to 2B, either. He will likely replace .074 Anthony, but again, I'm not projecting Anthony to hit .074, if he keeps playing FT.

I'm optimistic about our chances to make the playoffs. I think the rest of the AL sucks or is mediocre with as many or more issues as we have. My point is our odds got worse with the Devers trade- not better. I've never said our hopes were extinguished. 

You seem to be implying our odds are the same, because our pitching is doing great. Well, they are not doing great because Devers is gone. Our offense is struggling, even as we eek out win after win. I'm not a pessimist to worry how long that can and will continue.

Here's a bright angle for you and may help reaffirm my optimism in your eyes:

Record in one run games:

6-17 before June 11.

3-0 June 11 and after

(We've also gone 4-0 in 2 run wins since June 10th)

 

Last 8 games:

20 runs scored/ 17 runs allowed and a 7-1 record!

[moonslav59]

18 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Both great points.  I let his defense, which I like, blind me to the fact that he was signed for his bat.  The best we can say about Story is that he's not Breslow's fault.  Nor is Yoshida.  Breslow is better than Bloom, plus he seems to have more money to work with.  

I think he was signed for his glove and hopes that he could hit his career road OPS w COL, which was like .740, I think.

They preferred that over Bogey's .780 road OPS and bad defense.

[moonslav59]

How about the Houston Astros model of pitching staff building?

They lead the AL in Pitching fWAR and are missing:

Lance McCullers, Cristian Javier, Luis Garcia, Arrighetti, Blanco & JP France & Wesneski. That's 5 of their best 6 or 7 Sp'ers and 7 out of maybe their top 10 or 11 SP'ers!

[Maxbialystock]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Again, I don't get giddy over 7-11 games stretches.

I said our 5th starter is a mess, but I also said we need a solid #2. It's just that our current # is not a "mess." I just think I'd feel much better calling Bello & Dobbins my 3-4's and Gio my 5th.

I am optimistic, but excuse me if I'm not giddy over Gio, either. Hell, I'm not convinced Dobbins & Bello are for real, just yet. I have no reason to think they will crash and burn, but just look at the Houck example, last season and to start this season. The possibility is still out there, even for an optimist.

I don't think Toro is better than Casas, either. Ok, better than a teenie tiny, hand-selected sample size for both of them, but I'm not buying. I'm not dissing Toro or Romy. I love what they have done, but even an optimist has to doubt this continuing. I'd bet my house on Casas having a better OPS from 2026 onwards than Romy or Toro. He's a better hitter. I don't even see a debate on this. Again, I'm fine with you thinking this, but we differ on recency sample size values as predictors of what will be going forward.

Story to 2B does fix the issue, but Bregman may not be back until August, so we have a .475 DHam at 2B and a AAAA Eaton there, now. The return of Abreu is great news, but he doesn't play 2B or 1B, and I'm not for moving Rafaela to 2B, either. He will likely replace .074 Anthony, but again, I'm not projecting Anthony to hit .074, if he keeps playing FT.

I'm optimistic about our chances to make the playoffs. I think the rest of the AL sucks or is mediocre with as many or more issues as we have. My point is our odds got worse with the Devers trade- not better. I've never said our hopes were extinguished. 

You seem to be implying our odds are the same, because our pitching is doing great. Well, they are not doing great because Devers is gone. Our offense is struggling, even as we eek out win after win. I'm not a pessimist to worry how long that can and will continue.

Here's a bright angle for you and may help reaffirm my optimism in your eyes:

Record in one run games:

6-17 before June 11.

3-0 June 11 and after

(We've also gone 4-0 in 2 run wins since June 10th)

 

Last 8 games:

20 runs scored/ 17 runs allowed and a 7-1 record!

I think Casas is injury prone.  Of course he's better than Toro or whoever, but last season he played just 63 games because he foolishly swung a baseball bat and this season 29 games because he unwisely ran to 1b.  

Agree Bregman is key.  He was checked yesterday, but we don't know the results.  If it means August, I agree that's a big problem. 

We agree on postseason chances,

Agree the 8 wins in the last 10 games, primarily because of great pitching, is very small sample.  But these were starts, not relief appearances, that won those games.  When was the last time that happened for the Sox (I'm repeating myself)?  I agree nothing is guaranteed with the pitching, but at least there is some hope.  I didn't say the pitching was great because Devers left, I said it was great and we won games even without Devers hitting--also after he left.   Do I need to add that Bregman and Abreu also missed all 10 games?  

So I'm hopeful the hitting will get better, maybe not good as when Raffy batted 2d and Bregman 3d.  To me  the question marks are;  1) how soon does Bregman return? 2)  How do Mayer and Anthony do? 3) When does Yoshida return to DH along with Ref?  

 

[Maxbialystock]

47 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

How about the Houston Astros model of pitching staff building?

They lead the AL in Pitching fWAR and are missing:

Lance McCullers, Cristian Javier, Luis Garcia, Arrighetti, Blanco & JP France & Wesneski. That's 5 of their best 6 or 7 Sp'ers and 7 out of maybe their top 10 or 11 SP'ers!

Astounding.  

[moonslav59]

8 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

I think Casas is injury prone.  Of course he's better than Toro or whoever, but last season he played just 63 games because he foolishly swung a baseball bat and this season 29 games because he unwisely ran to 1b.  

Agree Bregman is key.  He was checked yesterday, but we don't know the results.  If it means August, I agree that's a big problem. 

We agree on postseason chances,

Agree the 8 wins in the last 10 games, primarily because of great pitching, is very small sample.  But these were starts, not relief appearances, that won those games.  When was the last time that happened for the Sox (I'm repeating myself)?  I agree nothing is guaranteed with the pitching, but at least there is some hope.  I didn't say the pitching was great because Devers left, I said it was great and we won games even without Devers hitting--also after he left.   Do I need to add that Bregman and Abreu also missed all 10 games?  

So I'm hopeful the hitting will get better, maybe not good as when Raffy batted 2d and Bregman 3d.  To me  the question marks are;  1) how soon does Bregman return? 2)  How do Mayer and Anthony do? 3) When does Yoshida return to DH along with Ref?  

 

I have no faith in Casas staying healthy: I just wish he still was healthy and think we'd be better, now, if he was.

Do we bat Bregman 2nd?

[Nick]

14 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

Given your consistent optimism in the past, the above just doesn't jibe.

For example, when was our 5th starter ever not a mess or near-mess? The team ERA is ranked 20th, so our 5th starter has absolutely no right to be decent.  

Story at 2b base fixes that problem.  

I don't care about Toro:  1) because he's still better than Casas was when he was hurt; 2) if he crashes, fill in with Gonzalez.  Heck, if Campbell gets his swing back, move him to 1b.  

Right now I like the team we have, especially with Abreu back tonight and maybe Bregman before the ASG.  Of course we miss Raffy, but you make a great case for Ref/Yoshida filling in.  Those 8 of 10 wins were entirely because of the pitching, especially the rotation.  When was the last time we saw that?  2018? So, yeah, a good 2d starter would be great, but I think chancy.  

As you and others have pointed out, no less than 6,428 AL teams are in the hunt for the wild card.  Fine with me.  Since 2021, the Sox really haven't been.   On top of that, this team has grown on me.  I even like he defense, the rookies, and the possibility, only that, that the pitching has turned around.   

You're to blame for my presumed giddiness.  You laid down a lineup I like, especially Yoshida/Ref at DH.  

 

I enjoy following this team with the additions of Crochet, Chapman, Bregman along with our newbies Anthony, Mayer and Narvaez. 

I like Breslow more than Cora. Isn't Breslow a John Henry clone with baseball knowledge?

[Nick]

Your BUDGET is based on cash payroll basis yet you throw out there $240M budget which in reality is measured on luxury tax payroll basis.

Mixing your financials partly cash and partly accrual? Confusing.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Who's a bigger factor in the second half: Houck or Sandoval?

I vote Harrison...

[notin]

Like to see a first base upgrade.  Josh Naylor might be the best of the available candidates, beating out Rhys Hopkins, Josh Bell and 4’5” Andrew Vaughn…

[notin]

1 hour ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Who's a bigger factor in the second half: Houck or Sandoval?

I vote Harrison...

Sandy Alcantara…

[notin]

4 hours ago, Nick said:

I enjoy following this team with the additions of Crochet, Chapman, Bregman along with our newbies Anthony, Mayer and Narvaez. 

I like Breslow more than Cora. Isn't Breslow a John Henry clone with baseball knowledge?

Do you mean you like Breslow more than you like Cora?  Or that you like Breslow more than Cora does?

Or both? Not like they’re mutually exclusive…

[moonslav59]

Since JH has serious people skills, too, I don't think he can even recognize that as a problem with Brez. We all probably think of Cora as a "player's manager," and feel he may be too cozy with players, but I keep wondering why he apparently never talked to Devers about playing 1B. A mester of people skills would/could have tried.

I'm still a Cora fan. I'm still liking Brez. Some serious mistakes were made, and the biggest ones: the Sale trade and handling of Devers all have so much convoluted contexts attached, I'm not so sure they are fireable offenses. (I can't personally bash Brez for the Sale trade when I thought it made sense, at the time. In hindsight, he deserves severe bashing, I guess.)

When you look at our farm, our list of young controllable players and the improved and deeper pitching staff, I think Brez should get some of the credit, and Cora has done well managing all the injuries and side issues going on. While the Buehler signing jumps out as a failure on the budget, the Story & Yoshida deals are not on Brez. (The Devers deal was not either.)

I think we are on the right track, despite the Devers hiccup... okay, call it a throw-up burp, but overall we are on the upwards trend.

Our farm appears to have addressed the lack of promising pitchers issue. Even when the 3 top prospects graduate (and don't forget Dobbins and Narvaez,) our farm will still be in or near the top 15 farms in MLB.

Our every day player score card is both deep and talented. Other than Story and Yoshida, again not on Brez, it is surprisingly very inexpensive. Our pitching has many more shorter contracts, and that was and still is by design. The amount of longer term pitching failures is reason enough to avoid longer deals for anyone, except someone like Crochet and yes, we nailed him down up to the year his peak prime ends. We also have some young and entering prime pitchers with various levels of promise and or proven success, even if not consistently.

27-30: Whitlock, Houck, Crawford, Sandoval, Criswell & Weissert

25-26: Bello, Dobbins, Slaten, Wink, Fitts

Plus a very long list of farm arms with serious promise or upside.

 

[jad]

I'm baffled about the support for Breslow, who has gotten rid of RS two best players with nothing in return.  He HAS saved JH a boatload of money.

but he is th most inarticulate pretentious fool I've heard in a long time and in professional sports, the competition is fierce.   He cannot construct a coherent sentence and seems especially proud of tht fact.  Even if he had people skills, which he does not, there is no way he could express them.

 

[moonslav59]

3 minutes ago, jad said:

I'm baffled about the support for Breslow, who has gotten rid of RS two best players with nothing in return.  He HAS saved JH a boatload of money.

Maybe, at least mention...

Crochet > Sale (and he was extended and paid more than Sale got.)

Bregman > Devers (and he got a higher AAV than Devers got.)

Yes, he traded our two best players by career stats, only, but he replaced them with better players and paid both handsomely.

Crochet, Bregman, Buehler, Chapman, Gio, Hendriks and others did not save JH a penny. Our budget has gone up under Brez,

I'm not defending his style and communication skills. I think we all agree on those areas he is lacking in.

I think he has taken a huge step in rebuilding the team and the farm, particularly with the much needed major focus on pitching: adding quality MLB pitchers, adding quality and quantity of farm pitching and changing the farm priorities toward acquiring, paying and developing young arms. While this still needs to be proven, his attempts at improving it cannot be denied. Social dufus or not.

[Larry Cook]

2 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I think he has taken a huge step in rebuilding the team and the farm, particularly with the much needed major focus on pitching: adding quality MLB pitchers, adding quality and quantity of farm pitching and changing the farm priorities toward acquiring, paying and developing young arms.

There are 3 sides to every story! And in the case of the Red Sox, those 3 sides are Henry, bres-slow and Cora!!  
 

1.) Henry wants a program that wins and has a yearly sustainable winning foundation within economic constraints!!!!  and I believe this is the instruction he passed along to bres-slow!! 
2.) bres-slow understands the direction issued by Henry, but also understands that while the team must be built on pitching, defense and timely hitting; chemistry is super key to wins and you cannot win with locker room cancers!!  This red Sox team has been described by journalists all year as not being cohesive and up until now, that has been accurate. The important thing is bres-slow is cutting out the cancer and building a real team again !!!!
3.) Cora wants to win now, even though he had a new three year deal, he got caught up in a chance to win now! Unfortunately, injuries and miscommunication by the front office left him on an island!!  I believe he has since bought back into the organization’s vision, and has checked his ego at the door and is finally able to bring the locker room together as a cohesive unit!!  
 

there are more changes to be made, this roster is lacking two quality starters, but the Red Sox are starting to feel like a team again and not a collection of players!!  
we got a ton of first and second year players and that means ups and downs for the rest of the year, but I think bres-slow has a vision for executing Henry’s plan!!!! Is bres-slow perfect?? No, not by a long shot! Bringing up Campbell, especially after a a tough training camp and all the errors early in the season, must have upset the pitchers and the locker room, but bres-slow has fixed it and would have fixed it earlier if not for bregman’s injury! 

I feel better about the “compete” of this team than I did back in March and I still think, we can make the playoffs this year!!!

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Larry Cook said:

There are 3 sides to every story! And in the case of the Red Sox, those 3 sides are Henry, bres-slow and Cora!!  
 

1.) Henry wants a program that wins and has a yearly sustainable winning foundation within economic constraints!!!!  and I believe this is the instruction he passed along to bres-slow!! 
2.) bres-slow understands the direction issued by Henry, but also understands that while the team must be built on pitching, defense and timely hitting; chemistry is super key to wins and you cannot win with locker room cancers!!  This red Sox team has been described by journalists all year as not being cohesive and up until now, that has been accurate. The important thing is bres-slow is cutting out the cancer and building a real team again !!!!
3.) Cora wants to win now, even though he had a new three year deal, he got caught up in a chance to win now! Unfortunately, injuries and miscommunication by the front office left him on an island!!  I believe he has since bought back into the organization’s vision, and has checked his ego at the door and is finally able to bring the locker room together as a cohesive unit!!  
 

there are more changes to be made, this roster is lacking two quality starters, but the Red Sox are starting to feel like a team again and not a collection of players!!  
we got a ton of first and second year players and that means ups and downs for the rest of the year, but I think bres-slow has a vision for executing Henry’s plan!!!! Is bres-slow perfect?? No, not by a long shot! Bringing up Campbell, especially after a a tough training camp and all the errors early in the season, must have upset the pitchers and the locker room, but bres-slow has fixed it and would have fixed it earlier if not for bregman’s injury! 

I feel better about the “compete” of this team than I did back in March and I still think, we can make the playoffs this year!!!

Well said. I like the way you broke it down.

[jad]

Except that there was no 'locker-room cancer'; this was a myth perpetuated by Breslow to make the 'deal' more palatable to fans, and as shown on this very board, it worked perfectly.

[Bellhorn04]

2 hours ago, jad said:

Except that there was no 'locker-room cancer'; this was a myth perpetuated by Breslow to make the 'deal' more palatable to fans, and as shown on this very board, it worked perfectly.

How do you know this about the locker room?

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

How do you know this about the locker room?

Forget the locker room, how about doggin' the basepaths?

There is evidence of that.

[mvp 78]

14 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

How do you know this about the locker room?

If there was a problem in the locker room, there'd be quotes. They would have found dirt and trashed him on the way out the door. They didn't find anything and made up the most useless stuff they could find that amounted to nothing.

"He was mad at Kristian!"

"Did Kristian or anyone in the clubhouse know about it?"

"No."

"🧐"

[Bellhorn04]

16 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

If there was a problem in the locker room, there'd be quotes. They would have found dirt and trashed him on the way out the door. They didn't find anything and made up the most useless stuff they could find that amounted to nothing.

"He was mad at Kristian!"

"Did Kristian or anyone in the clubhouse know about it?"

"No."

"🧐"

We all come at it from our own biased perspective.  I'm biased against Devers because I think he was in the wrong for making such a huge issue out of changing positions.  And then we had the not running hard to first base thing, which we never got any satisfactory explanation for.  

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We all come at it from our own biased perspective.  I'm biased against Devers because I think he was in the wrong for making such a huge issue out of changing positions.  And then we had the not running hard to first base thing, which we never got any satisfactory explanation for.  

He was wrong for it, but it doesn't mean there was an issue in the clubhouse because of it. 

Cora said that it wasn't a hustling issue. Cora said that he had a groin problem he had been working through. I don't know why that isn't a good enough explanation. I've seen enough highlights of MLBers not running out plays at first that the Devers play barely registered to me. 

[Hitch]

On 6/21/2025 at 5:28 PM, notin said:

Sandy Alcantara…

What do you think it might take to get him? Unless we go on another mini run I don't see it being at all viable for us anyway, but I can't get a handle on what it would take, and if we'd be wiling to go there.