Sox to call up Roman Anthony

[notin]

1 hour ago, Duran Is The Man said:

yeah...they should have given it to Cal last year. and i like Judge. just wish he played for another team.

Did Cal really deserve MVP last year?  Why?

Judge has 9.8 bWAR. Raleigh had 7.4

Judge had 10.1 fWAR, Raleigh had 9.1.

Judge is a future HOF Yankee still posting insane numbers.  I hate that.   But that doesn’t mean he isn’t the best hitter baseball has seen this since Pujols…

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

Did Cal really deserve MVP last year?  Why?

Judge has 9.8 bWAR. Raleigh had 7.4

Judge had 10.1 fWAR, Raleigh had 9.1.

Judge is a future HOF Yankee still posting insane numbers.  I hate that.   But that doesn’t mean he isn’t the best hitter baseball has seen this since Pujols…

If it's just going to a guy with the most WAR, just hand out a WAR award. 😎

[Behindenemylines]

That extension that Anthony signed last year is looking better and better for the Sox.

[Duran Is The Man]

7 hours ago, notin said:

Did Cal really deserve MVP last year?  Why?

Judge has 9.8 bWAR. Raleigh had 7.4

Judge had 10.1 fWAR, Raleigh had 9.1.

Judge is a future HOF Yankee still posting insane numbers.  I hate that.   But that doesn’t mean he isn’t the best hitter baseball has seen this since Pujols…

what MVP said. if Judge had put up those numbers with the Mariners and Raleigh had played his historic season with Yankees, you know Cal would have won. Judge is phenomenal, i know that, but no catcher in MLB history has done what Cal did.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

10 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

what MVP said. if Judge had put up those numbers with the Mariners and Raleigh had played his historic season with Yankees, you know Cal would have won. Judge is phenomenal, i know that, but no catcher in MLB history has done what Cal did.

If I didn't know their names and you asked me who's more valuable between two great hitters -- an outfielder who maybe gets to make one play an inning on a wild card team, or a catcher involved in every single pitch for a club that comes in first place -- it's not even close.

[notin]

14 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

what MVP said. if Judge had put up those numbers with the Mariners and Raleigh had played his historic season with Yankees, you know Cal would have won. Judge is phenomenal, i know that, but no catcher in MLB history has done what Cal did.

Your answer is just a hypothetical.  Whether or not you like WAR, it is real data.  
 

If it was all about pinstripes, I suspect Derek Jeter might have an award or two among his 8 top ten MVP finishes.

But the real issue last year was Raleigh had a clear career year and one of, if not the best offensive seasons in history for a catcher, while Judge gave us more of the same.  The problem for Raleigh is, while it was still just another Typical Judge Season, Typical Judge is rapidly establishing himself as being among the best of all time regardless of position.

I wouldn’t have been surprised if Raleigh won, but a Judge win was perfectly justifiable based on numbers, and not laundry…

[notin]

21 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

If it's just going to a guy with the most WAR, just hand out a WAR award. 😎

As opposed to the HR Award?

If you’re going to challenge WAR as a reasonable basis for an MVP award, propose a alternative method as opposed to just trying to rationalize unfavorable past results as nothing more than conspiracy theories…

[notin]

3 hours ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

If I didn't know their names and you asked me who's more valuable between two great hitters -- an outfielder who maybe gets to make one play an inning on a wild card team, or a catcher involved in every single pitch for a club that comes in first place -- it's not even close.

Seriously?

So Judge should have the wild card finish held against him despite his team winning more games?

You do realize this justification can be paraphrased to “it should go to the player who was more involved in the worse team taking advantage of the weaker division”. When phrased that way, is Raleigh such the clear choice?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

31 minutes ago, notin said:

Seriously?

So Judge should have the wild card finish held against him despite his team winning more games?

You do realize this justification can be paraphrased to “it should go to the player who was more involved in the worse team taking advantage of the weaker division”. When phrased that way, is Raleigh such the clear choice?

I knew I could count on a numbers person to jump all over that post. Here, let's delete "wild card" and "first place" and call them two great teams!

Now... again... on a great team: a catcher who hits 60 home runs -- and all the other things he does to make them great -- is way more valuable than an outfielder who hits 60 home runs.

Seriously.

[notin]

2 hours ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

I knew I could count on a numbers person to jump all over that post. Here, let's delete "wild card" and "first place" and call them two great teams!

Now... again... on a great team: a catcher who hits 60 home runs -- and all the other things he does to make them great -- is way more valuable than an outfielder who hits 60 home runs.

Seriously.

And that is a fair point, assuming he is a good catcher.  And Raleigh is good.  Not elite but very good. 
 
And Raleigh’s season was historic, and in many other seasons, he is a clear MVP.  The problem is, Judge lead all of MLB in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS (obviously), and  OPS+ plus a few other advanced metrics.  Plus he lead the AL in runs, total bases and walks.  Not to mention, he’s a very good defensive outfielder himself.

While no one has made one yet, at least not one I buy, there might be an argument for Raleigh being the clear choice over Judge.  Most of the ones posted here (not yours) fall somewhere between hypothetical conjecture and conspiracy theories. But there are clear arguments for Judge over Raleigh, and ones even I can spot.  
 

I’d have understood if Raleigh had won.  I’d have preferred it.  But it’s painfully obvious to me that a Judge win here was perfectly justified based on his season alone and not his uniform…

[Duran Is The Man]

2 hours ago, notin said:

Your answer is just a hypothetical.  Whether or not you like WAR, it is real data.  
 

If it was all about pinstripes, I suspect Derek Jeter might have an award or two among his 8 top ten MVP finishes.

But the real issue last year was Raleigh had a clear career year and one of, if not the best offensive seasons in history for a catcher, while Judge gave us more of the same.  The problem for Raleigh is, while it was still just another Typical Judge Season, Typical Judge is rapidly establishing himself as being among the best of all time regardless of position.

I wouldn’t have been surprised if Raleigh won, but a Judge win was perfectly justifiable based on numbers, and not laundry…

if it's based on WAR, we should definitely go back and give Ted Williams frozen head the FOUR MVP awards stolen from him and given to Yankee players.

[moonslav59]

Judge had an OBP and SLG% nearly 100 points better than Raleigh.

It's not even close.

Raleigh was 4th in OPS and wRC+, which is amazing for a catcher, but he was just too far behind Judge in just about every category.

Judge had over double the IBBs. He had a BA 84 points higher. He even beat Raleigh in XBHs by 1, despite having 7 less HRs.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

14 minutes ago, notin said:

And that is a fair point, assuming he is a good catcher.  And Raleigh is good.  Not elite but very good. 
 
And Raleigh’s season was historic, and in many other seasons, he is a clear MVP.  The problem is, Judge lead all of MLB in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS (obviously), and  OPS+ plus a few other advanced metrics.  Plus he lead the AL in runs, total bases and walks.  Not to mention, he’s a very good defensive outfielder himself.

While no one has made one yet, at least not one I buy, there might be an argument for Raleigh being the clear choice over Judge.  Most of the ones posted here (not yours) fall somewhere between hypothetical and conspiracy theories. But there are clear arguments for Judge over Raleigh, and ones even I can spot.  
 

I’d have understood if Raleigh had one.  I’d have preferred it.  But it’s painfully obvious to me that a Judge win here was perfectly justified based on his season and not his uniform…

They both had historic seasons, and even Cora said Judge was clearly the MVP. 

My point was that if I didn't know their names, for two guys with similar offense (not just HRs and RBIs, but Raleigh was 2nd in runs and walks, 4th in OPS), that I'd subjectively give an edge to the catcher. 

Before WAR even existed good catchers on winning teams often got their share of MVP votes by expert observers. My first year as a fan was 1968 when pennant winner Detroit's Denny McLain was the unanimous AL MVP. His catcher Bill Freehan finished 2nd, presumably for helping McLain win 31 games.

In retrospect, Yaz led the league that season with 10.5 WAR and finished 9th in the voting... but he wasn't even the Red Sox MVP, as Hawk Harrelson had big hits all year and finished 3rd.

When I played D3 our centerfielder was drafted because scouts liked his arm and his wheels - two tools you can't teach. But our catcher was voted team MVP. He hit about .250.

 

[moonslav59]

Let's get back to Roman Anthony.

What is this kid's ceiling?

IMO, we might not see much power, this year, but he may lead the league in BA, hits and possibly 2Bs.

[notin]

28 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

if it's based on WAR, we should definitely go back and give Ted Williams frozen head the FOUR MVP awards stolen from him and given to Yankees.

There are plenty of arguments for that.  Also maybe MLB should go back and adjust his batting average for all the years he played where sac flies DID count as at bats.

But again - what’s the clear basis for the conclusion that Raleigh should have won the award and Judge only got it because he was a Yankee?  Are you really saying Judge’s absolute monster season was unworthy and definitively inferior to Raleigh’s?

5Gold likes to highlight that Raleigh was a catcher and is therefore inherently more valuable.  I can agree there is something to it, although it’s not really quantifiable and doesn’t definitively put Raleigh ahead of Judge.  Also it makes me wonder if that means 5Gold is willing to forcibly take Pedroia’s 2008 MVP and hand it over to Joe Mauer…

 

 

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

They both had historic seasons, and even Cora said Judge was clearly the MVP. 

My point was that if I didn't know their names, for two guys with similar offense (not just HRs and RBIs, but Raleigh was 2nd in runs and walks, 4th in OPS), that I'd subjectively give an edge to the catcher. 

Before WAR even existed good catchers on winning teams often got their share of MVP votes by expert observers. My first year as a fan was 1968 when pennant winner Detroit's Denny McLain was the unanimous AL MVP. His catcher Bill Freehan finished 2nd, presumably for helping McLain win 31 games.

In retrospect, Yaz led the league that season with 10.5 WAR and finished 9th in the voting... but he wasn't even the Red Sox MVP, as Hawk Harrelson had big hits all year and finished 3rd.

When I played D3 our centerfielder was drafted because scouts liked his arm and his wheels - two tools you can't teach. But our catcher was voted team MVP. He hit about .250.

 

I get the catcher argument and respect it, but I'm not so sure Raleigh did a great job as a catcher. He's a good one, but the M's vaunted rotation kinda underperformed, last year.

[Old Red]

14 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Let's get back to Roman Anthony.

What is this kid's ceiling?

IMO, we might not see much power, this year, but he may lead the league in BA, hits and possibly 2Bs.

Ceiling? Maybe Fred Lynne’s caddie.🤔

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

15 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Let's get back to Roman Anthony.

What is this kid's ceiling?

IMO, we might not see much power, this year, but he may lead the league in BA, hits and possibly 2Bs.

The key to Anthony's batting success -- not on base percentage -- is going to be to find really good protection from whoever hits directly after him, most likely 2nd in the order. 

Because if Anthony starts maiming defensive players, like when he almost killed Sal Stewart Thursday, then he's not going to see many good pitches to hit.

A good #2 batter, say a .300 hitter or .500 slugger, can make the difference between Roman leading the league in hard-hit balls vs. just hard-hit rate.

[moonslav59]

6 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Ceiling? Maybe Fred Lynne’s caddie.🤔

Roman may never have a season equal to Lynn's '75 or '79 seasons, but the injuries really affected Fred's career numbers. Lynn only had over 550 PAs six times, and 5 of them were with Boston (1975-1979.) This was a phenomenal 5 year stretch:

.308 22  90 was the average (.381 OBP/.523 SLG/.904 OPS)

Projected to 162 gms: .308 25 104

Can Anthony hit .904 over his best 5 year stretch? I'd say it's possible.

Can he have a longer and more productive full career? I'd say yes.

Lynn's career line:

.283/.360/.484/.845 (4 GGs)

Per 162 games (650 PAs)

.283  25  91

[moonslav59]

7 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

The key to Anthony's batting success -- not on base percentage -- is going to be to find really good protection from whoever hits directly after him, most likely 2nd in the order. 

Because if Anthony starts maiming defensive players, like when he almost killed Sal Stewart Thursday, then he's not going to see many good pitches to hit.

A good #2 batter, say a .300 hitter or .500 slugger, can make the difference between Roman leading the league in hard-hit balls vs. just hard-hit rate.

This is important, but not many pitchers have great success walking the leadoff hitter.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

36 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

This is important, but not many pitchers have great success walking the leadoff hitter.

In any inning -- because a leadoff walk is almost guaranteed to score every time.

When my cousin pitched and fell behind the first batter, it became a major stressor. All he could think about is Don't walk the leadoff man!

If he did, it got to the point where my cousin would point at the guy when he reached 1st and just wave him around... so everyone could start fresh.

[moonslav59]

I hate to set expectations too high for young players, but for Roman, it seems justifiable.

Mayer is much harder to project.

KC is in reset mode.

Narvaez has already shown he's good on defense, and I think he has a good eye at the plate, and so should be able to stay over .700.

Early looks like a seasoned vet, already.

Tolle has a lot of upside potential.

This is a pretty nice list.

In 2024, we graduated Abreu, Rafaela & Slaten.

'22-'23: Duran, Bello, Crawford, Casas, Kelly & Wong

[notin]

1 hour ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

They both had historic seasons, and even Cora said Judge was clearly the MVP. 

My point was that if I didn't know their names, for two guys with similar offense (not just HRs and RBIs, but Raleigh was 2nd in runs and walks, 4th in OPS), that I'd subjectively give an edge to the catcher. 

Before WAR even existed good catchers on winning teams often got their share of MVP votes by expert observers. My first year as a fan was 1968 when pennant winner Detroit's Denny McLain was the unanimous AL MVP. His catcher Bill Freehan finished 2nd, presumably for helping McLain win 31 games.

In retrospect, Yaz led the league that season with 10.5 WAR and finished 9th in the voting... but he wasn't even the Red Sox MVP, as Hawk Harrelson had big hits all year and finished 3rd.

When I played D3 our centerfielder was drafted because scouts liked his arm and his wheels - two tools you can't teach. But our catcher was voted team MVP. He hit about .250.

 

And in some years, maybe catchers got too much credit.  Pudge Rodriguez over Pedro.  Pudge had a great year with a Gold Glove and a .931 OPS.  But interestingly, in the NL that year, Mike Leiberthal won a Gold Glove and had a .931 OPS, and didn’t get a single MVP vote.

Of course what’s being overlooked is Raleigh wasn’t a catcher; he was a C/DH starting 38 games - nearly a quarter of the season - in which he didn’t take the field at all. He was actually not a great DH, however, as his OPS was .788 in those games, although he did hit 11 of his 60 HRs.  (His 49 home runs as a catcher does still stand as a season record for the position.)  

I think there are pro-Raleigh arguments over Judge.  But what I contest is that Raleigh was the clear obvious choice and Judge only won because he was a Yankee.  I even contest it was a tie, but Judge was chosen because he was a Yankee with his uniform being the tiebreaker.  My point is Judge’s numbers alone do make a solid argument for his choice.

By the way, you’re continually making arguments about how catchers with lesser number DO get recognized for MVP awards and that actually takes away from your point about Raleigh being more deserving based on his position.   If you’re going to make the pro-catcher argument, perhaps it rests on the defensive metrics used for WAR cannot totally encompass the contributions of a catcher and therefore that position can get shortchanged.  I could support that. The only real counter is perhaps they also mask more deficiencies, but then even I’m getting more hypothetical than I prefer…

 

[mvp 78]

4 hours ago, notin said:

Your answer is just a hypothetical.  Whether or not you like WAR, it is real data.  

WAR is a hypothetical.

[notin]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

WAR is a hypothetical.

WAR is based on the numbers of real accomplishments.  You can question its accuracy and validity, which is fair criticism, but its foundation comes from games played in the field.  
 

Saying “if Raleigh had that season as a Yankee, he would have won MVP” is 100% pure conjecture.  It’s not even an opinion; it’s an unverifiable theory…

[Duran Is The Man]

7 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I hate to set expectations too high for young players, but for Roman, it seems justifiable.

Mayer is much harder to project.

KC is in reset mode.

Narvaez has already shown he's good on defense, and I think he has a good eye at the plate, and so should be able to stay over .700.

Early looks like a seasoned vet, already.

Tolle has a lot of upside potential.

This is a pretty nice list.

In 2024, we graduated Abreu, Rafaela & Slaten.

'22-'23: Duran, Bello, Crawford, Casas, Kelly & Wong

a lot of reasons to be hopeful for the next several years for sure. though, i'm not sure about the farm. the recent graduation and trading of several top prospects leaves us with one player in the Top 250 -Franklin Arias. 

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

WAR is based on the numbers of real accomplishments.  You can question its accuracy and validity, which is fair criticism, but its foundation comes from games played in the field.  
 

Saying “if Raleigh had that season as a Yankee, he would have won MVP” is 100% pure conjecture.  It’s not even an opinion; it’s an unverifiable theory…

To me, WAR isn’t the end all be all. Cal had a monster season and played great defense at a hard position. Judge had a monster offensive season but is mediocre defensively. Due to the defense, I give my vote to Cal.

[Duran Is The Man]

13 minutes ago, notin said:

WAR is based on the numbers of real accomplishments.  You can question its accuracy and validity, which is fair criticism, but its foundation comes from games played in the field.  
 

Saying “if Raleigh had that season as a Yankee, he would have won MVP” is 100% pure conjecture.  It’s not even an opinion; it’s an unverifiable theory…

nobody says it's anything other than an opinion, conjecture, unverifiable theory, but you know it's true. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

To me, WAR isn’t the end all be all. Cal had a monster season and played great defense at a hard position. Judge had a monster offensive season but is mediocre defensively. Due to the defense, I give my vote to Cal.

That’s fair.  But it’s also a tone shift, by which I mean you moved the goal posts.  I mean, I’d probably have voted for Raleigh, too.  But this was never about who we would have voted for.

I was countering the point someone made that Raleigh clearly deserved MVP and Judge only won due to Yankee bias.  I disagree and can clearly see Judge winning based solely on the monster season he had.

No one ever said  WAR was the end-all-be-all, but it stands head and shoulders over that boring old criticism of WAR accompanied by nothing.  No stat is the end-all-be-all.  But WAR is one of the better ones.…

[notin]

1 hour ago, Duran Is The Man said:

nobody says it's anything other than an opinion, conjecture, unverifiable theory, but you know it's true. 

I actually doubt it is.  But I do believe if Raleigh played for the Yankees, he probably hits 70 HRs in that cereal bowl, and that changes everything…