Article: After A Rough Few Months Is It Time For Alex Cora To Be On The Hot Seat?

[drewski6]

25 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'm willing to buy into a conspiracy theory that the Red Sox organization has bought in too much on purely data-driven approaches at the expense of other areas of the game.   I'm even willing to agree that the Jim Rice incident was concerning.

Who are you, Jesse the Body?

[Bellhorn04]

Ron Roenicke is probably available.  Anyone remember what the fundamentals looked like in 2020? 😛 

[drewski6]

48 minutes ago, sk7326 said:

John Farrell managed a nearly identical team in 2017 and won 93 games and went out in the first round (whatever weight you want to give the chaotic postseason).  Alex Cora took that group (well that group plus JD Martinez) - won 108 games and went 11-3 against two fellow 100-win teams and the 2nd best team in the NL.  2018 was a good group on paper sans dout ... but the managerial change took it from a good team to a historically great single season wagon.  In 2019 it faded away for the same reason most seasons go to pot - pitcher injuries. 

I dont think Farrell has ever said one thing in his life that wasnt a cliche.

[drewski6]

38 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Hard to wait on a hot streak if the Sox are going to call up a bunch of young guys. This team is giving 2014 vibes (young guys added, but the team isn't there yet and it may take another year or two to really figure out). 

Hard disagree.  I maintain that if it wasnt for the Bregman injury, this team would have figured it out - and still may.  There is a lot of talent on this team.  There wasnt last year, but Bregman, Crochet and even Navraez were huge additions.

I do not agree on punting on next year or even tempering expectations for next year.  I also dont believe we should punt on this year.

[Jasonbay44]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

He was good in '21 as well. He's been given a pretty tough hand from Bloom and Breslow. Looking at the lineups he's had to run out, especially in the middle of the field, it's not surprising that they've been a middling team. If you give him an above average team, he can make in game moves to put them over the top. If you give him a .500 team, they are going to stay .500. 

I agree. The roster construction has been very poor and that’s on the front office. I don’t think firing Cora mid season is going to do anything. 

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Ron Roenicke is probably available.  Anyone remember what the fundamentals looked like in 2020? 😛 

Bogaerts and Raffy played zero defense that year. The rest of the team was ok. I'm sure Vaz ran around the bases like an idiot though. 

The biggest problem was that the pitching just was a mess from day one. They never had a complete rotation and tried to fake it for 60 games. 

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Hard disagree.  I maintain that if it wasnt for the Bregman injury, this team would have figured it out - and still may.  There is a lot of talent on this team.  There wasnt last year, but Bregman, Crochet and even Navraez were huge additions.

I do not agree on punting on next year or even tempering expectations for next year.  I also dont believe we should punt on this year.

If Bregman was healthy, call up Mayer to replace the struggling Hamilton at 2b and move Campbell to 1b. I think they are stuck with Story for the year. Squeeze Anthony in as the 4th OFer or make Rafaela/Duran platoon in CF. 

[drewski6]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

If Bregman was healthy, call up Mayer to replace the struggling Hamilton at 2b and move Campbell to 1b. I think they are stuck with Story for the year. Squeeze Anthony in as the 4th OFer or make Rafaela/Duran platoon in CF. 

What could have been....Cries into coffee....What could have been?!?!?

Maybe Bregman comes back beginning of August to a .500 team that is under 5 games out in WC and we make a deadline move for a pitcher?  It feeling much more bleak about this year than I was before Breg injury but Im not quite there on lost cause.

[drewski6]

10 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Bogaerts and Raffy played zero defense that year. The rest of the team was ok. I'm sure Vaz ran around the bases like an idiot though. 

The biggest problem was that the pitching just was a mess from day one. They never had a complete rotation and tried to fake it for 60 games. 

I dont even remember some of these names! Chris Mazza?

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

I dont even remember some of these names! Chris Mazza?

High socks, traded to TB with Springs (potentially future Sox closer per NESN in 2020) for an MiLB catcher.

[drewski6]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

High socks, traded to TB with Springs (potentially future Sox closer per NESN in 2020) for an MiLB catcher.

Now that is an extremely Chaim Bloomy move (low impact)

[sk7326]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

Hard disagree.  I maintain that if it wasnt for the Bregman injury, this team would have figured it out - and still may.  There is a lot of talent on this team.  There wasnt last year, but Bregman, Crochet and even Navraez were huge additions.

I do not agree on punting on next year or even tempering expectations for next year.  I also dont believe we should punt on this year.

I don't think the idea is to punt the season or anything like that.  But it is possible - particularly with the kids playing a bit more - that it is not a fully baked cake.  I can see that.  

[Old Red]

41 minutes ago, sk7326 said:

I don't think the idea is to punt the season or anything like that.  But it is possible - particularly with the kids playing a bit more - that it is not a fully baked cake.  I can see that.  

It’s been more like ST lineups lately with guys moving around, and playing out of position, and I don’t see it being any different, or better anytime soon.

[TedYazPapiMookie]

4 hours ago, sk7326 said:

John Farrell managed a nearly identical team in 2017 and won 93 games and went out in the first round (whatever weight you want to give the chaotic postseason).  Alex Cora took that group (well that group plus JD Martinez) - won 108 games and went 11-3 against two fellow 100-win teams and the 2nd best team in the NL.  2018 was a good group on paper sans dout ... but the managerial change took it from a good team to a historically great single season wagon.  In 2019 it faded away for the same reason most seasons go to pot - pitcher injuries. 

If it's alright with you I'd like to add a few things you left off.

1 - 2017 Cora concocted a cheating scheme that ended the post season for the Red Sox.  That's not on Farrell, Cora is to blame.  He cheated and impacted up to 90 games and then brought the cheating to Boston in 2018.

2 - While some lucky hunches worked throughout the season, not making him a good manager just a lucky manager but for every lucky good thing there was a dozen bonehead moves.  How many games did Cora pinch run for JD with him on first with two outs in the 6th or 7th inning and a small lead and then watch Cora's star reliever Robles (Latin bias managing the bullpen) blow the lead and Boston had to come back with some scrub batting for JD in the bottom of the 8th or 9th?  Those loses could have been avoided.

3 - The managerial change HURT the team.  At least 12 more games could have been won without Cora's many, many mistakes like I mentioned in the previous point.  That's how good the talent was that Cora inherited.  He completely destroyed Sale's chance for his first Cy Young after Farrell saw him just barely fall short in 2017 when Corey Kluber had the most phenomenal post all-star game run.  Sitting Sale like he did cost the team many wins.

4 - 2019 was DESTROYED by Cora because as you pointed out there were many, many pitching jnjuries caused by Cora's decision to invite the starting staff to show up 2 weeks late for Spring Training.  They opened in Japan and a West Coast trip without a proper preparation for the season.  Eovaldi went down and Sale and Price struggled due to not having a proper prep time in Spring Training.  All those mistakes are on Cora and Cora ALONE.  Worst manager in the MLB for years.

Now give me a list of how he won games because normally coaches can easily lose games with mistakes but the wins most often happen when player perform at an elevated level due to an excellent skill set that is acquired by a GM.

[mvp 78]

36 minutes ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

2 - While some lucky hunches worked throughout the season, not making him a good manager just a lucky manager but for every lucky good thing there was a dozen bonehead moves. 

3 - The managerial change HURT the team.  At least 12 more games could have been won without Cora's many, many mistakes like I mentioned in the previous point. 

His mistakes in 2018 were just bad luck, the inverse of his good luck from point #2. 

[jdc69]

4 hours ago, Old Red said:

Being fundamentally bad is not the biggest reason the 500 has been a 500, or below team for 4 years in a row now, but it certainly hasn’t helped.

I think for this team, it's a big reason. I'm not anti-analytics but it sounds like they think that just because it worked for them in the past, anything before it, like fundamentals, small ball, gut feelings etc. was a hundred years of mistaken thinking. 

[sk7326]

53 minutes ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

If it's alright with you I'd like to add a few things you left off.

1 - 2017 Cora concocted a cheating scheme that ended the post season for the Red Sox.  That's not on Farrell, Cora is to blame.  He cheated and impacted up to 90 games and then brought the cheating to Boston in 2018.

2 - While some lucky hunches worked throughout the season, not making him a good manager just a lucky manager but for every lucky good thing there was a dozen bonehead moves.  How many games did Cora pinch run for JD with him on first with two outs in the 6th or 7th inning and a small lead and then watch Cora's star reliever Robles (Latin bias managing the bullpen) blow the lead and Boston had to come back with some scrub batting for JD in the bottom of the 8th or 9th?  Those loses could have been avoided.

3 - The managerial change HURT the team.  At least 12 more games could have been won without Cora's many, many mistakes like I mentioned in the previous point.  That's how good the talent was that Cora inherited.  He completely destroyed Sale's chance for his first Cy Young after Farrell saw him just barely fall short in 2017 when Corey Kluber had the most phenomenal post all-star game run.  Sitting Sale like he did cost the team many wins.

4 - 2019 was DESTROYED by Cora because as you pointed out there were many, many pitching jnjuries caused by Cora's decision to invite the starting staff to show up 2 weeks late for Spring Training.  They opened in Japan and a West Coast trip without a proper preparation for the season.  Eovaldi went down and Sale and Price struggled due to not having a proper prep time in Spring Training.  All those mistakes are on Cora and Cora ALONE.  Worst manager in the MLB for years.

Now give me a list of how he won games because normally coaches can easily lose games with mistakes but the wins most often happen when player perform at an elevated level due to an excellent skill set that is acquired by a GM.

Almost all of these points are deeply deeply hilarious.

1. The best team of my lifetime, the 1998 Yankees - won 114 games.  The 2001 Mariners won 116 games.  The current existing Los Angeles Dodgers, the wagon of wagons peaked at 111 games and never won more than 106.  So - the 2018 Boston Red Sox winning 108 games is really really impressive.  If you think the 2018 Red Sox had 120 wins in them save for some manager - I need to refer you to the Federal Wallet Inspector.

2. The idea that Cora was singularly responsible for Sale, Price and Eovaldi's injuries - injury histories that never stopped after wards - is wild when you consider that superpower could have been used for good.

The idea that Cora was foisted on Dombrowski simply doesn't make sense.  Cora was one of the top names of that managerial cycle, and a particularly auspicious fit for Boston given his familiarity with the market.  That combined with his wide range of experience and media savvy made him a very sensible hire.  For the most part, Cora has maximized the rosters he has had.  It doesn't mean he is infallible.  

Honestly, the current problem with the Red Sox is really the ole "play better" adjustment.  

 

[TedYazPapiMookie]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

His mistakes in 2018 were just bad luck, the inverse of his good luck from point #2. 

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call pulling JD too early in the game as bad luck.  That's called bad managing.

[TedYazPapiMookie]

35 minutes ago, sk7326 said:

Almost all of these points are deeply deeply hilarious.

1. The best team of my lifetime, the 1998 Yankees - won 114 games.  The 2001 Mariners won 116 games.  The current existing Los Angeles Dodgers, the wagon of wagons peaked at 111 games and never won more than 106.  So - the 2018 Boston Red Sox winning 108 games is really really impressive.  If you think the 2018 Red Sox had 120 wins in them save for some manager - I need to refer you to the Federal Wallet Inspector.

2. The idea that Cora was singularly responsible for Sale, Price and Eovaldi's injuries - injury histories that never stopped after wards - is wild when you consider that superpower could have been used for good.

The idea that Cora was foisted on Dombrowski simply doesn't make sense.  Cora was one of the top names of that managerial cycle, and a particularly auspicious fit for Boston given his familiarity with the market.  That combined with his wide range of experience and media savvy made him a very sensible hire.  For the most part, Cora has maximized the rosters he has had.  It doesn't mean he is infallible.  

Honestly, the current problem with the Red Sox is really the ole "play better" adjustment.  

 

I'm sorry for your lack of comprehension about pitching.  Ask others about what it would mean to lose out on 2 weeks of prep work right before a 162 games season begins.  I think you will be surprised what experts say about the damage that can be done to arms by making that massive mistake.

You completely fabricated Cora's reputation because he was a bad player and he graduated to a bench coach with responsibility for the mood in the dugout and creating cheating schemes.  That's not prep for a managerial job.  NO EXPERIENCE IS NO EXPERIENCE.  He proved it ever since that he was not qualified even if you like him.  

Cora NEVER maximized anything other than cheating.  His daily moves kill the ball club and have EVERY year he's been in charge.  Bad line-ups, bad pitching staff handling and bad in game strategy.  He's a buffoon when it comes to managing.  Like I've said before, his gift of gag is his strength as a bench coach and a manager doing post-game interviews.  The game itself escapes him.  Pulling JD, giving away a game a series by playing the scubs way too much, trying to coach pitching as a former bad infielder.  Not the track record of a winner but it is a track record of a well-connected former bench jockey who has pull with the right people.  Worst manager in baseball on top of being a cheat.  There is NOTHING to admire about Cora as a man or a manager.  He cheated the game of baseball and the players who have been a part of the industry over the last 140 years.  That's unforgiveable and it should have landed him on the banned list for life along with the other cheaters.

[mvp 78]

10 minutes ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call pulling JD too early in the game as bad luck.  That's called bad managing.

I think it's a stretch to complain that he sat Sale in 2018 to give him rest and then also complain that Cora injured him the following season. It was clear to most people that were watching at the time that Sale wasn't completely healthy at the end of 2018 (Sept was his highest ERA and OPS, he did not exactly pitch like vintage Sale in the playoffs).

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

There is NOTHING to admire about Cora as a man or a manager. 

He seems like a good dad and people around the game like him. 

[TedYazPapiMookie]

5 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

If Bregman was healthy, call up Mayer to replace the struggling Hamilton at 2b and move Campbell to 1b. I think they are stuck with Story for the year. Squeeze Anthony in as the 4th OFer or make Rafaela/Duran platoon in CF. 

Hamilton belongs in AAA.  Campbell belongs at 2B since we owe Story $70Million, Anthony needs to play 1B for 2025 and taking time from either Duran or Rafaela will hurt the team incredibly.  Duran on offense and Rafaela on defense.  Mayer needs to raise his game on defense and has to go through the hitting adjustments that Campbell is trying to make right now.  There will be a book on Mayer just like there is now one on Campbell and both young players need to learn how to adapt as their book gets built and implemented by other pitching staffs.  Anthony will need to go through the same process just like every rookie does.  Once Bregman gets back, they will need to decide Story's future.

[TedYazPapiMookie]

10 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I think it's a stretch to complain that he sat Sale in 2018 to give him rest and then also complain that Cora injured him the following season. It was clear to most people that were watching at the time that Sale wasn't completely healthy at the end of 2018 (Sept was his highest ERA and OPS, he did not exactly pitch like vintage Sale in the playoffs).

Sale lost his mojo by sitting for nearly two months.  What never made sense was shutting him down to try to proactively avoid his typical dead arm from previous seasons.  Taking that much time off is like restarting from spring training.  That's why Sept looked like it did for Sale.  No mojo from knowing he had the Cy Young in the bag and Cora told him to sit because he thought he was smart and could avoid the dead arm interruption by resting him. 

Cora is a big rest guy.  It gives the scrubs time to play when it comes to the hitters, and it kills the momentum of the starters who don't like "resting" like Cora did as a player.  They lose their edge.  Once a five man rotation is created you don't want unexpected rests, you only want resting when the PITCHER says he needs it.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, if Cora was a diversity play, it's certainly one they're going all in on, considering this is his third CBO and he got a nice healthy extension and a fat raise.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

2 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, if Cora was a diversity play, it's certainly one they're going all in on, considering this is his third CBO and he got a nice healthy extension and a fat raise.

Maybe cora has incriminating photos of john henry in a compromising position.

[sk7326]

2 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

 

You completely fabricated Cora's reputation because he was a bad player and he graduated to a bench coach with responsibility for the mood in the dugout and creating cheating schemes.  That's not prep for a managerial job.  NO EXPERIENCE IS NO EXPERIENCE.  He proved it ever since that he was not qualified even if you like him.  

 

If we know we are talking about first time managers (and by definition gotta start somewhere), if you hired somebody with his resume that you didn't have some weird (possibly bad faith) personal animus for - you'd barely blink.  

[dgalehouse]

Since winning it all in 2018, the Sox have basically been a .500 team, with a few bright spots , a few lows and a lot of mediocrity. It's not all Cora's fault, but some of it has to be. This is now year seven. At what point do you think a change is needed ?  

[illinoisredsox]

27 minutes ago, dgalehouse said:

Since winning it all in 2018, the Sox have basically been a .500 team, with a few bright spots , a few lows and a lot of mediocrity. It's not all Cora's fault, but some of it has to be. This is now year seven. At what point do you think a change is needed ?  

The real question is how committed is the team to winning, and by team, I mean Henry and Kennedy as well as Breslow and Cora.

I mean look back at 2003; Grady Little won 188 games in 2 seasons but royally screwed up Game 7 of the ALCS and was (rightly) fired for it.  That was accountability from the top.  
 

The last several seasons would not have been permitted during the 15 or so years from 2003-18.  Something changed at the top in 2019 and definitely by 2020.  So long as the stands were full, the top guys didn’t care.  And in watching the past few years, the stands have remained full, except now they are filled with visiting fans whose money spends the same as Red Sox rooters.

All of which says it may be time for a managerial change, but I’m not sure it’ll do much good.

 

 

[jdc69]

3 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

  Cora NEVER maximized anything other than cheating.  His daily moves kill the ball club and have EVERY year he's been in charge.  Bad line-ups, bad pitching staff handling and bad in game strategy.  He's a buffoon when it comes to managing.  Like I've said before, his gift of gag is his strength as a bench coach and a manager doing post-game interviews.  The game itself escapes him.  Pulling JD, giving away a game a series by playing the scubs way too much, trying to coach pitching as a former bad infielder.  Not the track record of a winner but it is a track record of a well-connected former bench jockey who has pull with the right people.  Worst manager in baseball on top of being a cheat.  There is NOTHING to admire about Cora as a man or a manager.  He cheated the game of baseball and the players who have been a part of the industry over the last 140 years.  That's unforgiveable and it should have landed him on the banned list for life along with the other cheaters.

Got to admit, for Cora to be not only let in mlb but actually a manager is strange considering how they treated Pete Rose.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

https://chowderandchampions.com/red-sox-manager-has-2-months-to-save-his-job-before-trade-deadline-01jwccb2q8b5