Taking the Cheap Way Hardly Ever Works

[Nick]

6 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Nick. Bregman is a pretty good defensive player and may be better or equal to Campbell at 2B. Maybe not.

Bregman has done worse in his last 4-5 seasons over his first 3-4 seasons, but he's been pretty steady of the last few years, with slight decline in the last 2 years..

OPS+: 117>113>134>122>118

fWAR: 2.1>5.4>4.5>4.1

3B DRS: 2> -4> 5> 6 (OAA: 0>4>1>6)

Moon, I am okay with us signing Bregman. I just wished we'd pick a player and see through the signing.

I just don't think we'll do it. It appears our MO is to haggle over the last $3/$4M and lose out.

You HAVE said the MOST IMPORTANT THING RECENTLY. That we are wasting one year of two year control of elite pitcher Crochet that we acquired by giving up pretty good prospects.  Let that sink in for everyone here.

Anyone that works for the Sox on this board, you are f***ing idiots.

 

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, Nick said:

Moon, I am okay with us signing Bregman. I just wished we'd pick a player and see through the signing.

I just don't think we'll do it. It appears our MO is to haggle over the last $3/$4M and lose out.

You HAVE said the MOST IMPORTANT THING RECENTLY. That we are wasting one year of two year control of elite pitcher Crochet that we acquired by giving up pretty good prospects.  Let that sink in for everyone here.

Anyone that works for the Sox on this board, you are f***ing idiots.

 

I'd be fine with Bregman as our 3Bman, only.

I do not think he is the right guy to "pick and see through on signing," but at this point, he's the best of the rest.

He'd make us better in 2 significant ways: RHB and 3B defense.

[Thunder]

4 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Good to see you, again, and congrats on UConn's bowl win.

Carlos Narvaez played 6 MLB games, last year and is ML ready. He's plus on D. He showed some HR power and OBP skills in the minors.

Seby Zavala has played parts of 5 seasons in MLB with over 185 games played and over 550 PAs.

I'd like to see a trade for someone like Sean Murphy, but what would we have to give up? (notin suggested Story.)

Thanks for the info. I must have missed the transaction that brought us Zavala

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, Thunder said:

Thanks for the info. I must have missed the transaction that brought us Zavala

No prob. It was not highly advertised.

I think Narvaez is #2 and Zavala #3, but it's just a guess.

 

[notin]

54 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

No prob. It was not highly advertised.

I think Narvaez is #2 and Zavala #3, but it's just a guess.

 

Narvaez is on the 40 man roster.  Zavala is not..,

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

Narvaez is on the 40 man roster.  Zavala is not..,

That's clue #1. LOL.

[jdc69]

Where would Devers play if not 3rd base? I suggested earlier him to DH and Yoshida to LF but Yoshida seems to be a bad fielder himself.  Trading Casas (LHB) for a need like pitching, catching, RHB seems like a good idea, putting Devers on 1st. Our offense was pretty effective without him.

Not signing O'Neill and Anthony also being LHB, makes it even more of a good idea. Pete Alonso came to mind as an off-season acquisition. Hes a RHB and Devers needs home run protection at the plate, though not exactly Big Papi, Manny combo.

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, jdc69 said:

Where would Devers play if not 3rd base? I suggested earlier him to DH and Yoshida to LF but Yoshida seems to be a bad fielder himself.  Trading Casas (LHB) for a need like pitching, catching, RHB seems like a good idea, putting Devers on 1st. Our offense was pretty effective without him.

Not signing O'Neill and Anthony also being LHB, makes it even more of a good idea. Pete Alonso came to mind as an off-season acquisition. Hes a RHB and Devers needs home run protection at the plate, though not exactly Big Papi, Manny combo.

The main problem with Devers' defense is his arm. I think he would be fine at 1B. Since Casas sucks on D, my guess is Devers might be better or equal.

Devers and Casas can share the 1B and DH slots in the line-up. They would not need many days off, as they could "rest" at DH.

Okay, that causes an issue with out $18M DH, but we'd improve our 3B D and maybe our 1B D and add a RHB at 3B. We fix 2-3 problems by adding a good RHB 3Bman.

I don't want Yoshida in LF, but if that is what we have to do, I'd rather have bad LF D than really bad 3B D. Maybe once Yoshi gets healthy, we can trade him and take a salary hit.

I can see how that sort of makes signing Bregman cost Bregman's contract plus what we have to pay off Yoshi's deal, assuming he'd be our DH, kif not traded, even after we add Anthony, Campbell and Mayer to the line-up. Without trading Yoshida...

1. Duran CF 

2. Bregman 3B

3. Casas DH/1B

4. Devers 1B/DH

5. Campbell 2B

6. Abreu> then> Anthony RF

7.  Story SS

8.  Yoshida LF v R/Refsnyder LF vs L

9. Wong-Narvaez C

Utility: Rafaela & DHam (Romy/Grissom)

Not ideal, but an improvement, IMO.

[Hitch]

10 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

The main problem with Devers' defense is his arm. I think he would be fine at 1B. Since Casas sucks on D, my guess is Devers might be better or equal.

Devers and Casas can share the 1B and DH slots in the line-up. They would not need many days off, as they could "rest" at DH.

Okay, that causes an issue with out $18M DH, but we'd improve our 3B D and maybe our 1B D and add a RHB at 3B. We fix 2-3 problems by adding a good RHB 3Bman.

I don't want Yoshida in LF, but if that is what we have to do, I'd rather have bad LF D than really bad 3B D. Maybe once Yoshi gets healthy, we can trade him and take a salary hit.

I can see how that sort of makes signing Bregman cost Bregman's contract plus what we have to pay off Yoshi's deal, assuming he'd be our DH, kif not traded, even after we add Anthony, Campbell and Mayer to the line-up. Without trading Yoshida...

1. Duran CF 

2. Bregman 3B

3. Casas DH/1B

4. Devers 1B/DH

5. Campbell 2B

6. Abreu> then> Anthony RF

7.  Story SS

8.  Yoshida LF v R/Refsnyder LF vs L

9. Wong-Narvaez C

Utility: Rafaela & DHam (Romy/Grissom)

Not ideal, but an improvement, IMO.

The problem with this is, that barring a plague outbreak, Cora is never ever playing Yoshi in the field. And even when it seemed the opportune time to play him as the DH last year, he often didn't get played then either. 

So if we're signing Bregman (and surely as a 3rd baseman not 2nd), it would mean trading one of Casas or Yoshi, with one being eminently more tradeable than the other. 

[notin]

27 minutes ago, Hitch said:

The problem with this is, that barring a plague outbreak, Cora is never ever playing Yoshi in the field. And even when it seemed the opportune time to play him as the DH last year, he often didn't get played then either. 

So if we're signing Bregman (and surely as a 3rd baseman not 2nd), it would mean trading one of Casas or Yoshi, with one being eminently more tradeable than the other. 

The problem with signing Bregman is that Breslow can see him as a third baseman until the end of time, but Cora puts the lineup together.  So if Cora want him at 2b, he’s playing 2b…

[Hitch]

54 minutes ago, notin said:

The problem with signing Bregman is that Breslow can see him as a third baseman until the end of time, but Cora puts the lineup together.  So if Cora want him at 2b, he’s playing 2b…

I would imagine they'll be on the same page from the outset. If that page is 2nd baseman it'll be deeply annoying.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Bregman might be this year's Jordan Montgomery for Sox fans - a guy we talk and talk about mainly just because he hasn't signed with someone else yet, then find out there was really very little interest in them. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, Hitch said:

I would imagine they'll be on the same page from the outset. If that page is 2nd baseman it'll be deeply annoying.

Reportedly they’re not on the same page and maybe that’s why Bregman hasn’t been signed…

[FredLynn]

16 hours ago, Nick said:

Despite being $31M under the cap, I believe you won't see another big ticket signing this winter.

Perhaps we'll add another bullpen arm on the cheap but our pitching staff is set. It's better than the one we had last year.

Let's evaluate FA Bregman signing. 

Bres appears to be in no rush to move Devers off 3B. This almost is a duplicate of pussyfooting around NOT asking Xander to get his ass off ss for the good of the team. We want better defense but we seem to be very weak on the corners. 

It would be asinine to sign a player on the decline (Bregman) and ask him to play a position he's never played before. Just keep in mind that year ago Bres thought so highly of Atlanta's Vaughn Grissom that we PAID the Braves to take Sale off of our hands in exchange for Vaughn. Please let that sink in. I still believe Bres has not totally given up on Grissom, chalking up last year to injuries. 

The bigger issue is we may have someone that can fill 2B better than anyone on our 40 man roster, Kristian Campbell. Hell, he's already better than Bregman. Surely plays better defense.

I doubt that we'll trade Casas when his value is at lowest. But he's still under team control for 4 more years. Let him play out this year and increase his trade value. Ultimately he probably has to go because of Devers. I doubt we pay Devers $30M just to DH. 

Unless of course we decided to roll the dice in 2025 and we trade for Vladimir (who is in his last year before free agency) for Casas, Abreu and handful of prospects.

Adding Vladimir would be a calculated risk maybe worth taking if we're going for it. As of today, that maybe the only ONE move we can make to get us to the World Series.

Solid starting pitching to go with a formidable offense with Vladimir, Devers, Duran, Story, Yoshida along with Anthony and Campbell.

Quit nickel and diming us John. Do you ever dream big anymore? Or do you want your legacy, and this will be your only legacy, to be the cheap ass that owned the Red Sox?

 

We aren't getting Vlad. Too expensive for our cheapskate owner. We aren't getting Santander either. Likely even Bregman is too expensive. We are "interested in" all these guys, but it ends there. Henry is pathetic, but the fan base that goes to the games to support these antics are even worse.

[notin]

10 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

We aren't getting Vlad. Too expensive for our cheapskate owner. We aren't getting Santander either. Likely even Bregman is too expensive. We are "interested in" all these guys, but it ends there. Henry is pathetic, but the fan base that goes to the games to support these antics are even worse.

Yeah it’s appalling that these fans refuse to put aside their entertainment needs because the unrealistic expectations of others are not being met.  f***ing selfish…

[FredLynn]

2 minutes ago, notin said:

Yeah it’s appalling that these fans refuse to put aside their entertainment needs because the unrealistic expectations of others are not being met.  f***ing selfish…

Our "entertainment needs" are not being met be last place finishes year after year and putting a bunch of losers on the field who really aren't good enough for the playoffs in the years they don't finish last. 

This is NOT a small market team. Henry is playing it like it is, but its not a small market team. NO ONE should accept the garbage teams he has put on the field for years. The only language he will understand is an empty ballpark. Lets hope that the fans stay HOME.

[Duran Is The Man]

fourth in revenue and eleventh in payroll. hmmmm.....

[notin]

9 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Our "entertainment needs" are not being met be last place finishes year after year and putting a bunch of losers on the field who really aren't good enough for the playoffs in the years they don't finish last. 

This is NOT a small market team. Henry is playing it like it is, but its not a small market team. NO ONE should accept the garbage teams he has put on the field for years. The only language he will understand is an empty ballpark. Lets hope that the fans stay HOME.

No.  YOUR entertainment needs are not being met.  The people actually paying money to go to games don’t seem to mind as much.  That’s why they’re there…

[FredLynn]

8 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

fourth in revenue and eleventh in payroll. hmmmm.....

Yes-but the "entertainment value"!!!

 

And I believe still below the LT despite going "full throttle". Ownership isn't fooling anyone with half a brain. They talk the talk but never walk the walk, at least not recently.

[FredLynn]

1 minute ago, notin said:

No.  YOUR entertainment needs are not being met.  The people actually paying money to go to games don’t seem to mind as much.  That’s why they’re there…

And those people are even more disgusting than Henry, as a wrote earlier. Those who attend games accept mediocrity or worse. I am proud not to be one of them.

[notin]

1 minute ago, FredLynn said:

And those people are even more disgusting than Henry, as a wrote earlier. Those who attend games accept mediocrity or worse. I am proud not to be one of them.

No one asked you to be among them.  But not everything baseball fan is a fan for the same reason.  And expecting others to curtail their viewing practices to meet your needs is flat out wrong.

 

Its something I expect from that Diehard Star Wars Nerd crowd my profession is loaded with who tell me I’m wrong for liking A Solo Story because “it wasn’t part of the original saga and just something Hollywood made for money.”  Ok.  I still found it entertaining.  And I’m not wrong for liking it…

[notin]

3 hours ago, Hitch said:

The problem with this is, that barring a plague outbreak, Cora is never ever playing Yoshi in the field. And even when it seemed the opportune time to play him as the DH last year, he often didn't get played then either. 

So if we're signing Bregman (and surely as a 3rd baseman not 2nd), it would mean trading one of Casas or Yoshi, with one being eminently more tradeable than the other. 

Yoshida did play one inning in LF last year.  Was that because Cora suspected a plague outbreak was imminent?  And his first thought was “This is it!! It’s back!! Time for evasive action! Get Yoshida in the outfield NOW!!!” 
 

Maybe Cora got Yoshida out there in time and curtailed the plague. Maybe it was a false alarm.  We may never know.  But we are all still safe…

[FredLynn]

39 minutes ago, notin said:

No one asked you to be among them.  But not everything baseball fan is a fan for the same reason.  And expecting others to curtail their viewing practices to meet your needs is flat out wrong.

 

Its something I expect from that Diehard Star Wars Nerd crowd my profession is loaded with who tell me I’m wrong for liking A Solo Story because “it wasn’t part of the original saga and just something Hollywood made for money.”  Ok.  I still found it entertaining.  And I’m not wrong for liking it…

I am not TELLING anyone what to do. You misunderstand me. I am ENCOURAGING everyone to do the right thing and STAY HOME. Do not support a billionairre cheapskate owner who thinks its fine to put a mediocre (or worse) product on the field. 

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, FredLynn said:

I am not TELLING anyone what to do. You misunderstand me. I am ENCOURAGING everyone to do the right thing and STAY HOME. Do not support a billionairre cheapskate owner who thinks its fine to put a mediocre (or worse) product on the field. 

It's been noted that a lot more of the people at Fenway now are fans of other teams.  So even staying home might not necessarily have any impact.

[FredLynn]

8 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

It's been noted that a lot more of the people at Fenway now are fans of other teams.  So even staying home might not necessarily have any impact.

Red Sox fans are some of the most ardent and loyal fans on the planet. I doubt a significant number of people at the park are fans of other teams. As ardent die hard fans we always want what is best for the team. Usually thats hoping they win as much as possible. Sometimes its hoping they lose to improve their draft position. And ardent fans want a winner on the field-ideally a WS winner, but at the very least a team that competes for a playoff spot nearly every year. That has not happened recently, and its the fault of ownership and management. We have limited ways to demonstrate our displeasure, and one way is to BOYCOTT the park. 

[notin]

15 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Red Sox fans are some of the most ardent and loyal fans on the planet. I doubt a significant number of people at the park are fans of other teams. As ardent die hard fans we always want what is best for the team. Usually thats hoping they win as much as possible. Sometimes its hoping they lose to improve their draft position. And ardent fans want a winner on the field-ideally a WS winner, but at the very least a team that competes for a playoff spot nearly every year. That has not happened recently, and its the fault of ownership and management. We have limited ways to demonstrate our displeasure, and one way is to BOYCOTT the park. 

I’d question anyone who claimed to be an ardent fan who always knows what the team wants, and then says they rooted for the team “to lose to improve their draft position.”  Draft position?  In the MLB draft?

 

Also - this is MLB. Mediocrity quite often does compete for playoff spots…

[notin]

27 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

I am not TELLING anyone what to do. You misunderstand me. I am ENCOURAGING everyone to do the right thing and STAY HOME. Do not support a billionairre cheapskate owner who thinks its fine to put a mediocre (or worse) product on the field. 

So are you trying to discourage me from going to Cubs’ games?

[FredLynn]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

I’d question anyone who claimed to be an ardent fan who always knows what the team wants, and then says they rooted for the team “to lose to improve their draft position.”  Draft position?  In the MLB draft?

 

Also - this is MLB. Mediocrity quite often does compete for playoff spots…

That would make us LESS THAN mediocre. We should be playing meaningful baseball nearly every September, but we haven't been. I'd question anyone claiming to be an ardent fan who is satisfied with the dung heap Henry is putting out there for the last several years. I know I am not part of those who sit and smile drooling at the bums that have made up our team for the last several years.

[FredLynn]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

So are you trying to discourage me from going to Cubs’ games?

I don't care one bit about the Cubs or any other team than the Red Sox......and in a negative way about the Yankees. Attend all the Cubs games you like. Stay home from the Red Sox games. Let Henry know this is not acceptable.

[notin]

1 minute ago, FredLynn said:

I don't care one bit about the Cubs or any other team than the Red Sox......and in a negative way about the Yankees. Attend all the Cubs games you like. Stay home from the Red Sox games. Let Henry know this is not acceptable.

Well you said billionaire owner puts a cheap product on the field, and thats Ricketts.  I mean, the team has only won the World Series once since Teddy Roosevelt was president and the country only had 46 states.  But folks flock to that park all the same…