2024 Red Sox Defense

[notin]

It's probably not for this excerpt from SABR's Mark Amour bio:

 

"During Cronin’s 11-year tenure running the franchise (as general manager, president, and eventually treasurer), the team evolved from a contender to a middle-of-the-road club. The biggest problem, though by no means the only one, was the club’s failure to field any black players. The Red Sox famously had first crack at Jackie Robinson in 1945, and at Willie Mays in 1949. By 1958, Cronin’s last season as general manager, more than 100 blacks (either African-Americans or dark-skinned Latins) had played in the majors, 11 of whom went on to the Hall of Fame. None of the 100 played for the Red Sox."

 

To be fair, Earl Wilson was in the Sox system in 1953 and Pumpsie Green in 1956.

[jad]

It's probably not for this excerpt from SABR's Mark Amour bio:

 

"During Cronin’s 11-year tenure running the franchise (as general manager, president, and eventually treasurer), the team evolved from a contender to a middle-of-the-road club. The biggest problem, though by no means the only one, was the club’s failure to field any black players. The Red Sox famously had first crack at Jackie Robinson in 1945, and at Willie Mays in 1949. By 1958, Cronin’s last season as general manager, more than 100 blacks (either African-Americans or dark-skinned Latins) had played in the majors, 11 of whom went on to the Hall of Fame. None of the 100 played for the Red Sox."

 

Is Cronin responsible for that racist f*ck Pinky Higgins as manager? Who ended up in jail for DUI homicide? (THAT, I didn't know).

[notin]

Is Cronin responsible for that racist f*ck Pinky Higgins as manager? Who ended up in jail for DUI homicide? (THAT, I didn't know).

 

Didn't Higgins at least manage a couple African American players? I'm sure he was not exactly fair to them, but he managed in the early 1960s, so he had Wilson and Green, right?

 

Not like some of the other racist MLB managers like Ben Chapman, whose racism forced him out of baseball...

[mvp 78]

Is Cronin responsible for that racist f*ck Pinky Higgins as manager? Who ended up in jail for DUI homicide? (THAT, I didn't know).

 

Well, the GM is the boss of the manager.

[mvp 78]

They did change the rules at one point. But it was a big deal when Boggs' number was not retired right away.

 

It still shouldn't be retired IMO.

[jad]

Pretty sure Higgins was manager when Pumpsie Green was brought up. So also, Earl Wilson (of no-hitter fame). Also served as GM, right?

[illinoisredsox]

How is his number retired anyway?

 

Didn’t the criteria for having your number retired by the Sox back then include 1) making the Hall of Fame and 2) playing your entire career for the Red Sox? That was why we were told 26 couldn’t be retired. And 24.

 

So why does this former Washington Senator have his number hanging at Fenway?

 

The requirement at one time was HOF and ending your career with the Red Sox. The formal requirements were eliminated several years ago.

 

If it were HOF and entire career, only Williams, Yaz, Rice and Doerr would be up there. I know Fisk signed a one day contract with the Red Sox to fulfill that ending career part.

[notin]

The requirement at one time was HOF and ending your career with the Red Sox. The formal requirements were eliminated several years ago.

 

If it were HOF and entire career, only Williams, Yaz, Rice and Doerr would be up there. I know Fisk signed a one day contract with the Red Sox to fulfill that ending career part.

 

OK, I thought it was entire career, not ending career. Possible misinterpretation on my part.

 

But in my defense, for a long, long time, the only names up there were Doerr, Williams, Yaz and Cronin. So if I'm questioning Cronin, the list still fits.

[notin]

It still shouldn't be retired IMO.

 

Yes, it should. Not like they retired his wedding ring...

[mvp 78]

Yes, it should. Not like they retired his wedding ring...

 

Nope.

[notin]

Nope.

 

Strong disagree.

 

Hall of Famer. 3,000 hits. Seven All Star appearances and five Silver Sluggers with Boston. Jim Rice only got two Silver Sluggers, for comparison...

[illinoisredsox]

OK, I thought it was entire career, not ending career. Possible misinterpretation on my part.

 

But in my defense, for a long, long time, the only names up there were Doerr, Williams, Yaz and Cronin. So if I'm questioning Cronin, the list still fits.

 

Fair enough, and no matter what, I hope they never get to the level of the Yankees, who not only retire the numbers of the greats but also the very goods. Bernie Williams was a very good player but there is no reason his number should have been retired.

Edited April 12, 2024 by illinoisredsox

[notin]

Fair enough, and no matter what, I hope they never get to the level of the Yankees, who not only retire the numbers of the greats but also the very goods. Bernie Williams was a very good player but there is no reason his number should have been retired.

 

The Sox haven't even gotten around to retiring their greats.

 

Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown and 24 belongs in the rafters. In fact, 24 belongs there twice. Manny, for all his flaws, and he absolutely had them, was a great player as well.

[Elktonnick]

The requirement at one time was HOF and ending your career with the Red Sox. The formal requirements were eliminated several years ago.

 

If it were HOF and entire career, only Williams, Yaz, Rice and Doerr would be up there. I know Fisk signed a one day contract with the Red Sox to fulfill that ending career part.

 

Read Cronin's bio

[mvp 78]

Strong disagree.

 

Hall of Famer. 3,000 hits. Seven All Star appearances and five Silver Sluggers with Boston. Jim Rice only got two Silver Sluggers, for comparison...

 

That was back when all the big boys played LF and nobodies played 3B and batting average was king.

[Maxbialystock]

The Sox haven't even gotten around to retiring their greats.

 

Dwight Evans belongs in Cooperstown and 24 belongs in the rafters. In fact, 24 belongs there twice. Manny, for all his flaws, and he absolutely had them, was a great player as well.

 

Never saw Dwight--too far away to get him on TV. But definitely like Manny, who took fielding rather lightly but was dead serious about hitting and very good at it.

 

This thread is about defense, and I just have to say, yet again, that the Sox have always given priority to hitting-- even for centerfielders and shortstops.

 

And so far these 2024 Sox appear to have neither hitting nor fielding.

Edited April 12, 2024 by Maxbialystock

[jad]

Never saw Dwight--too far away to get him on TV. But definitely like Manny, who took fielding rather lightly but was dead serious about hitting and very good at it.

 

Manny was the best hitter I ever saw. And the catch, high five to the fan, and doubling the guy off first, makes up for any fielding deficiencies and history!

[illinoisredsox]

Read Cronin's bio

 

Why?

[moonslav59]

Why?

 

I was thinking the same thing.

[mvp 78]

As early as 1938, it was apparent to the Red Sox that Cronin's playing career was nearly over. Red Sox farm system director Billy Evans thought he had found Cronin's successor in Pee Wee Reese, the star shortstop for the Louisville Colonels of the Triple-A American Association. He was so impressed by Reese that he was able to convince Yawkey to buy the Colonels and make them the Red Sox' top farm club. However, when Yawkey and Evans asked Cronin to scout Reese, Cronin realized he was scouting his potential replacement. Believing he still had enough left to be a regular player, Cronin deliberately downplayed Reese's talent and suggested the Red Sox trade him.

 

After the 1968 season, Cronin drew headlines when he fired AL umpires Al Salerno and Bill Valentine, ostensibly for poor performance; however, it later surfaced that the two officials were fired for attempting to organize an umpires' union.

 

What a bastard.

[mvp 78]

Joe Cronin's bio uses the Pedey "it wasn't me, it was them" excuse towards the racism.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Joe Cronin's bio uses the Pedey "it wasn't me, it was them" excuse towards the racism.

 

Pee Wee Reese, who Cronin wouldn't let replace him, became famous for befriending Jackie Robinson -- when the majors finally allowed the best players in the world to play in their leagues.

[Elktonnick]

Pee Wee Reese, who Cronin wouldn't let replace him, became famous for befriending Jackie Robinson -- when the majors finally allowed the best players in the world to play in their leagues.

I am not defending Cronin. My only point he was not fired as some one alleged.

[Elktonnick]

As early as 1938, it was apparent to the Red Sox that Cronin's playing career was nearly over. Red Sox farm system director Billy Evans thought he had found Cronin's successor in Pee Wee Reese, the star shortstop for the Louisville Colonels of the Triple-A American Association. He was so impressed by Reese that he was able to convince Yawkey to buy the Colonels and make them the Red Sox' top farm club. However, when Yawkey and Evans asked Cronin to scout Reese, Cronin realized he was scouting his potential replacement. Believing he still had enough left to be a regular player, Cronin deliberately downplayed Reese's talent and suggested the Red Sox trade him.

 

After the 1968 season, Cronin drew headlines when he fired AL umpires Al Salerno and Bill Valentine, ostensibly for poor performance; however, it later surfaced that the two officials were fired for attempting to organize an umpires' union.

 

What a bastard.

Now the umpires have a union and mlb can not fire Angel Hernandez

[jad]

If large corporations and businesses hired and fired and set salaries on the basis of justice and fairness, we wouldn't need unions. However, they do not. Angel Hernandez is a very small price to pay. My attitude, whenever my bosses talk giddily about 'getting rid of deadwood,' has always been that I like to keep as much deadwood between me and the buzz-saw as possible.

[Elktonnick]

If large corporations and businesses hired and fired and set salaries on the basis of justice and fairness, we wouldn't need unions. However, they do not. Angel Hernandez is a very small price to pay. My attitude, whenever my bosses talk giddily about 'getting rid of deadwood,' has always been that I like to keep as much deadwood between me and the buzz-saw as possible.

We no longer need unions.

[Elktonnick]

Once again the Sox defense stinks.

[Duran Is The Man]

Once again the Sox defense stinks.

 

every year. but the front office either doesn't care or has no clue.

[moonslav59]

There is no defense for this defense.

[Maxbialystock]

Once again the Sox defense stinks.

 

True. But, as I said on tonight's game thread, the Sox have always favored hitting over fielding. In the four seasons--2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018--when the Sox won the WS they finished 1st, 4th, 1st, and 1st in MLB in total runs scored. In those same four seasons their team ERA's were ranked 11th, 2d, 14th, and 7th. And their fielding percentages (which may not be relevant to their actual defensive skills) were ranked 23d, 4th, 9th, and 9th.