Craig Breslow hired as Head Of Baseball Operations

[Bellhorn04]

Extended them. Extended Sale & Bogey.

 

Added nobody new. Subtracted our two best RP'ers and did not even try to replace them- not even by trade.

 

To me, this whole path we are on began right after those extensions, which were just treading water and not for improvement.

 

You have to say they were still trying, though, with the money for Sale, Bogaerts and Eovaldi.

 

Trying to tread water after winning 108 games doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me.

 

It was that 2019 season that seems to have soured Henry to an extreme degree.

[moonslav59]

You have to say they were still trying, though, with the money for Sale, Bogaerts and Eovaldi.

 

Trying to tread water after winning 108 games doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me.

 

It was that 2019 season that seems to have soured Henry to an extreme degree.

 

Treading water only in that they kept those 4 guys from going to free agency. The loss of Kimbrell and Kelly without even allowing for a trade to replace them was the first sign the pendulum was swinging back the other way, IMO.

 

I do think they rightfully believed we'd still be a factor in 2019. That does not take away from the fact that the swing had begun- on purpose.

[Bellhorn04]

Treading water only in that they kept those 4 guys from going to free agency. The loss of Kimbrell and Kelly without even allowing for a trade to replace them was the first sign the pendulum was swinging back the other way, IMO.

 

I do think they rightfully believed we'd still be a factor in 2019. That does not take away from the fact that the swing had begun- on purpose.

 

Well, the luxury tax rules were obviously a factor in the trim job. Henry was already on record about the necessity of avoiding the third year penalties.

[moonslav59]

Well, the luxury tax rules were obviously a factor in the trim job. Henry was already on record about the necessity of avoiding the third year penalties.

 

I think 2019 was higher than 2018, but I could be wrong.

 

Didn’t the reset start in 2020?

[Bellhorn04]

I think 2019 was higher than 2018, but I could be wrong.

 

Didn’t the reset start in 2020?

 

Yes.

[moonslav59]

Yes.

 

So we could have signed Kimbrell and Kelly and easily reset in ‘20 by trading Betts and Price and probably K & K, too, if we wanted to.

 

The decline began in ‘19.

No outside spending.

No bringing back all key pieces.

No trades after Beeks in the summer of ‘18.

 

Yes, that team should still have been good enough to compete, but the new plan was already in place. Hell, we almost traded Betts and Price in the summer of ‘19. What other evidence is needed.

 

It all started before the Blom hire.

[Bellhorn04]

So we could have signed Kimbrell and Kelly and easily reset in ‘20 by trading Betts and Price and probably K & K, too, if we wanted to.

 

The decline began in ‘19.

No outside spending.

No bringing back all key pieces.

No trades after Beeks in the summer of ‘18.

 

Yes, that team should still have been good enough to compete, but the new plan was already in place. Hell, we almost traded Betts and Price in the summer of ‘19. What other evidence is needed.

 

It all started before the Blom hire.

 

It all started in 2019 without a doubt. Bye bye Dombrowski and bye bye Betts. A new era was underway.

[moonslav59]

It all started in 2019 without a doubt. Bye bye Dombrowski and bye bye Betts. A new era was underway.

 

Had DD pulled the trigger on the Betts trade, I think it would have eased the intensity of the Bloom criticism, at the start.

 

He ended up earning a fair share of criticism on his own, for sure.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If good free agents cost too much for Red Sox ownership these days (seventeen hundred days, but who's counting), it seems more likely that this offseason will be defined by some kind of significant trade, in all its splashiness...

 

... though the water displacement might look more like little ripple rings at the end of a skimmed stone, instead of your drunk uncle belly-flopping at the 4th of July barbecue.

[Randy Red Sox]

Well, the luxury tax rules were obviously a factor in the trim job. Henry was already on record about the necessity of avoiding the third year penalties.

 

I don't have a problem with that but he hasn't really spent since although Bloom did make a couple expensive mistakes

[Bellhorn04]

Any truth to the rumor Breslow earned a tidy year-end bonus for actually reducing the Sox payroll over the first 2 months of the offseason, which no one in the free world saw coming?

[notin]

You have to say they were still trying, though, with the money for Sale, Bogaerts and Eovaldi.

 

Trying to tread water after winning 108 games doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me.

 

It was that 2019 season that seems to have soured Henry to an extreme degree.

 

 

Like I’ve been saying for a year now?

[dgalehouse]

You have to say they were still trying, though, with the money for Sale, Bogaerts and Eovaldi.

 

Trying to tread water after winning 108 games doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me.

 

It was that 2019 season that seems to have soured Henry to an extreme degree.

 

Shortly after receiving his 2018 World Series ring, Henry was quoted as saying that he felt he was spending too much on the Red Sox team and he was looking to cut spending going forward. I don't know where to find that now, but I do remember it well. And it has certainly come to pass.

[moonslav59]

Shortly after receiving his 2018 World Series ring, Henry was quoted as saying that he felt he was spending too much on the Red Sox team and he was looking to cut spending going forward. I don't know where to find that now, but I do remember it well. And it has certainly come to pass.

 

JH spent a lot to build what looked like it should have been a 4-5 year window.

 

The budget for2019 was higher than2018, despite not bringing back Kimbrell & Kelly. That’s what happens when studs move through arbs and close to free agency.

 

I agree with Bell. The 2019 season soured JH. Hell, we came close to a summer fire sale by trading Betts under DD. That is evidence the change was already underway.

 

I expected it to be for a couple years, maybe three, and in some ways the spending has increased a lot, but it got so low, it just looks like a lot.

 

I also think JH is stuck in the 2017 market on some sort or time warp gig.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

I also think JH is stuck in the 2017 market on some sort or time warp gig.

 

2017? Moneyball was published in 2003, and the movie came out in 2011. Here's John Henry's quote from the latter in the Billy Beane interview:

 

JH: "Anybody who is not tearing their team down right now -- and rebuilding it -- using your model... they're dinosaurs."

 

Henry hired Beane (who soon backed out), pivoted to Epstein, and we know the rest...

 

Yet most of the Red Sox front office still-intact-for-decades bragged in a 2020 tweet about resetting the luxury tax. Whoop dee dog doo.

 

After spending big on championship players from Epstein to Dombrowski, Henry finally transitioned to his Moneyball dream (please don't reply how Bloom's Sox had a top 5 payroll -- when the bulk of his budget was already burned paying money owed from previous regimes, or blown on Chaim's short-term contracts for mediocrity).

 

What it has done for ownership: 1. put more dough in their pockets; 2. put more of their teams at the bottom of the standings.

 

And now free agency risks any remaining Brontosaurus burgers to go extinct. Does Henry's paleontology dept. really need warnings that they're the endangered species?

[Dipre]

Shortly after receiving his 2018 World Series ring, Henry was quoted as saying that he felt he was spending too much on the Red Sox team and he was looking to cut spending going forward. I don't know where to find that now, but I do remember it well. And it has certainly come to pass.

 

I consume as much Red Sox media as humanly possible, and I never ever saw this quote.

[Bellhorn04]

I consume as much Red Sox media as humanly possible, and I never ever saw this quote.

 

I didn't see that exact quote, but his actions certainly don't belie it.

[Hugh2]

I didn't see that exact quote, but his actions certainly don't belie it.

 

I always say, trust actions not words. They did go over the LT as recently as 2022 after resetting.

 

The Sox are spenders, what has changed is their spending habits. They'd rather go out and pay more in AAV to sign middling guys to short term deals.

 

They spend the money, what they do not do, is go out and sign premier free agents to long term deals. They struck gold with that strategy before. 2013, and came close in 2021. The problem with it is you're 3X more likely to have a 2022 season than you are a 2021.

[mvp 78]

I didn't see that exact quote, but his actions certainly don't belie it.

 

If he was looking to cut payroll after 2018, why allow the Sale extension? Why sign Eovaldi?

[Bellhorn04]

I always say, trust actions not words. They did go over the LT as recently as 2022 after resetting.

 

The Sox are spenders, what has changed is their spending habits. They'd rather go out and pay more in AAV to sign middling guys to short term deals.

 

They spend the money, what they do not do, is go out and sign premier free agents to long term deals. They struck gold with that strategy before. 2013, and came close in 2021. The problem with it is you're 3X more likely to have a 2022 season than you are a 2021.

 

Spending is all relative.

 

Spotrac says the Sox were #13 in payroll for 2023. But they're #3 in team market value and gross revenue.

[mvp 78]

I always say, trust actions not words. They did go over the LT as recently as 2022 after resetting.

 

The Sox are spenders, what has changed is their spending habits. They'd rather go out and pay more in AAV to sign middling guys to short term deals.

 

They spend the money, what they do not do, is go out and sign premier free agents to long term deals. They struck gold with that strategy before. 2013, and came close in 2021. The problem with it is you're 3X more likely to have a 2022 season than you are a 2021.

 

They went over the LT accidentally because they traded for JBJ. That's not really going for it OR something to be proud of.

[Bellhorn04]

If he was looking to cut payroll after 2018, why allow the Sale extension? Why sign Eovaldi?

 

FWIW I read a story about Henry and DD being overheard in a heated argument about the Sale extension. No doubt there were some differences in thinking going on. Henry was probably looking for any excuse to fire DD after that.

[mvp 78]

FWIW I read a story about Henry and DD being overheard in a heated argument about the Sale extension. No doubt there were some differences in thinking going on. Henry was probably looking for any excuse to fire DD after that.

 

Henry could just not approve the contract?

[Hugh2]

Spending is all relative.

 

Spotrac says the Sox were #13 in payroll for 2023. But they're #3 in team market value and gross revenue.

 

And the year before they were 6th, a position they'd be pretty close to again in 2023 if they signed a premier guy like Judge e.g. (not that they should have). I think it's more telling to look at how much a team spends over a several year window. It's obvious the Sox are allergic to long term deals, particularly pitchers. Which is an interesting strategy to have when you don't want to draft and develop them.

[Hugh2]

They went over the LT accidentally because they traded for JBJ. That's not really going for it OR something to be proud of.

 

I don't think it was an accident, they just made horrible decisions at building a better roster. They just came off a season in which they were 2 games away from a WS. They thought they were going to compete in 2022. They were wrong. They also could have easily shed payroll at the deadline to get under if they really wanted too.

[mvp 78]

I don't think it was an accident, they just made horrible decisions at building a better roster. They just came off a season in which they were 2 games away from a WS. They thought they were going to compete in 2022. They were wrong. They also could have easily shed payroll at the deadline to get under if they really wanted too.

 

That is the decision that cost Bloom his job.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You-get-what-you-pay-for doesn't always work in baseball for the most expensive free agents... but it usually does for the least expensive bargains.

 

At least that's what we've seen in Boston the past five years. And don't bother to list Bloom's minor victories that saved a million here or there so he could blow it on other failures.

 

Contrast with Dombrowski's Phillies, and how much more fun Philadelphia fans have had the past few years. No rings -- though the Phils would've been in the World Series two seasons in a row if not for one Dombro mistake, forgetting Kimbrel in the '18 postseason (and good luck this year, Baltimore).

[Hugh2]

That is the decision that cost Bloom his job.

 

For the sake of brevity let me just say yes, I completely agree with that.

[Bellhorn04]

That is the decision that cost Bloom his job.

 

So why not fire him after 2022?

[mvp 78]

You-get-what-you-pay-for doesn't always work in baseball for the most expensive free agents... but it usually does for the least expensive bargains.

 

At least that's what we've seen in Boston the past five years. And don't bother to list Bloom's minor victories that saved a million here or there so he could blow it on other failures.

 

Contrast with Dombrowski's Phillies, and how much more fun Philadelphia fans have had the past few years. No rings -- though the Phils would've been in the World Series two seasons in a row if not for one Dombro mistake, forgetting Kimbrel in the '18 postseason (and good luck this year, Baltimore).

 

'23 FAs:

Heyward 720k, 2.2 fWAR

G Sanchez 1M, 1.7 fWAR

W Smith 1.4M, 1.1 fWAR

A Chapman 3.5M, 1.8 fWAR

Wacha 6.5M, 2.6 fWAR

Duvall 7M, 1.9 fWAR

 

You can find good players without having to overpay. It just becomes more of a crapshoot.