Devers signs 11 year $331 million extension

[notin]

Have the Red Sox dropped in talent the last 5 years? Counting HOF are we?

 

Apparently one of us. I mean you did say the Orioles managed to get in first place without Brooks or Frank Robinson or Jim Palmer as your evidence of a watered down league…

[moonslav59]

Yaz was under .700 vs lefties in his career.

 

What a watered down league it was back then! Today, he'd be platooned.

[Old Red]

Yaz was under .700 vs lefties in his career.

 

What a watered down league it was back then! Today, he'd be platooned.

 

We’ve been around, and around on this watered down subject before. No one changed their mind then, and no one is changing his mind now no matter how many times the subject gets mentioned.

[moonslav59]

We’ve been around, and around on this watered down subject before. No one changed their mind then, and no one is changing his mind now no matter how many times the subject gets mentioned.

 

99% of Sox Nation thinks the league is not watered down.

 

I went down to the big corner and took a poll.

[Old Red]

99% of Sox Nation thinks the league is not watered down.

 

I went down to the big corner and took a poll.

 

I understand that, but that doesn’t change my mind, and as someone always says being in the majority doesn’t mean it’s right.

[Bellhorn04]

Have Red Sox fans seen a watered-down product in Boston uniforms over the last 20 years? Do we have to list all the names of great and good players we've had?

[Old Red]

Have Red Sox fans seen a watered-down product in Boston uniforms over the last 20 years? Do we have to list all the names of great and good players we've had?

 

You can if you’d like, and then compare against the competition. How about if we put all the stats in a computer like the 1975 team vs the 2018 team, and see what it spits out like they did years ago with all the great boxes of all time.

[moonslav59]

I understand that, but that doesn’t change my mind, and as someone always says being in the majority doesn’t mean it’s right.

 

You should listen to that guy, more often.

[Bellhorn04]

You can if you’d like, and then compare against the competition. How about if we put all the stats in a computer like the 1975 team vs the 2018 team, and see what it spits out like they did years ago with all the great boxes of all time.

 

The Red Sox were stocked with stars in the years from 1975 to 1979, no question, but after that not so much.

 

What about the 2003-2008 Sox teams? Plenty of stars, 2 titles, 4 times to the 7th game of the ALCS.

[Old Red]

The Red Sox were stocked with stars in the years from 1975 to 1979, no question, but after that not so much.

 

What about the 2003-2008 Sox teams? Plenty of stars, 2 titles, 4 times to the 7th game of the ALCS.

2003-2008 were good Red Sox teams no doubt.

[moonslav59]

You can if you’d like, and then compare against the competition. How about if we put all the stats in a computer like the 1975 team vs the 2018 team, and see what it spits out like they did years ago with all the great boxes of all time.

 

Here are a few telling stats based on comps to the rest of the league:

 

OPS+/ ERA+ and year

107/104 1975 (+11)

103/118 1978 (+21)

107/107 1986 (+14) Nicely balanced team

118/104 2003 (+22)

110/116 2004 (+26)

107/123 2007 (+30)

116/109 2013 (+25)

112/118 2018 (+30)

 

Last 5 years

106/104 2019 (+10 is one short of 1975)

104/87 2020 (-9)

106/110 2021 (+16 is better than 1975 and 1986. It was also better than DD's '19 team.)

101/94 2022 (-5)

102/106 2023 (+8)

 

Of course, using OPS+ and ERA+ does not address which era or year was more skillful, but in terms of league dominance, these numbers work for me.

[Old Red]

You should listen to that guy, more often.

 

Good one!

[moonslav59]

2003-2008 were good Red Sox teams no doubt.

 

When did the watering down begin? around 2013? 2018? After COVID?

[dgalehouse]

Hard to say if MLB is watered down or not. There are more teams than there used to be, but also a bigger talent pool to draw from. But there are more different sports attracting the best young athletes. There is a lot of exciting talent in the game today, but I think there is also a lack of fundamentals in many of the players. I don't think there is a clear-cut answer as to whether the overall caliber of play today is better, about the same or worse. It's just a matter of opinion. And of course, it also depends on just how far back in time you want to go.

[moonslav59]

Hard to say if MLB is watered down or not. There are more teams than there used to be, but also a bigger talent pool to draw from. But there are more different sports attracting the best young athletes. There is a lot of exciting talent in the game today, but I think there is also a lack of fundamentals in many of the players. I don't think there is a clear-cut answer as to whether the overall caliber of play today is better, about the same or worse. It's just a matter of opinion. And of course, it also depends on just how far back in time you want to go.

 

There has been no expansion in a long time, and apparently the league was NOT watered down from 2003-2007.

[dgalehouse]

There has been no expansion in a long time, and apparently the league was NOT watered down from 2003-2007.

 

Did I say that?

[Old Red]

Here are a few telling stats based on comps to the rest of the league:

 

OPS+/ ERA+ and year

107/104 1975 (+11)

103/118 1978 (+21)

107/107 1986 (+14) Nicely balanced team

118/104 2003 (+22)

110/116 2004 (+26)

107/123 2007 (+30)

116/109 2013 (+25)

112/118 2018 (+30)

 

Last 5 years

106/104 2019 (+10 is one short of 1975)

104/87 2020 (-9)

106/110 2021 (+16 is better than 1975 and 1986. It was also better than DD's '19 team.)

101/94 2022 (-5)

102/106 2023 (+8)

 

Of course, using OPS+ and ERA+ does not address which era or year was more skillful, but in terms of league dominance, these numbers work for me.[

Good stats, but not factoring in the level of competition could change things one way, or the other to much, or not at all.

[cp176]

Wow - if I didn't know better I would obviously think that old Red got you boys again. He makes a comment about Devers and regardless of how you feel about him you go into attack mode for what 3 pages. I'm going with a gotcha moment and he gotcha. First of all I think that Turner and Devers both play for the same team at least for the time being. This would be akin to anyone mentioning DD's name on here just to watch the two maybe three of you squirm and pontificate about how he destroyed our franchise. For the record, i'm a Devers fan and I'm glad that he is still with us but so should Mookie Betts be. A multi billionaires budget knows no real boundary.

[Old Red]

When did the watering down begin? around 2013? 2018? After COVID?

 

I can’t give an exact date, or time, and like I’ve said before it’s not just baseball to me.

[moonslav59]

Another wat to look at the 2 major eras....

 

1975 to 1978

105.5 fWAR non pitching

107 wRC +

.764 OPS

3167 Runs

 

66.2 fWAR pitching

3.80 ERA (93 ERA-)

3.84 FIP

1.34 WHIP

2448 ERuns (2738 runs allowed)

 

2004-2007

98.1 fWAR everyday players

109 wRC+

.809 OPS

3546 Runs

 

66.3 fWAR pitching

4.41 ERA (95 ERA-)

4.24 FIP

1.35 WHIP

2820 ERuns (3055 Runs allowed)

 

 

[moonslav59]

I can’t give an exact date, or time, and like I’ve said before it’s not just baseball to me.

 

Give a rough 5 year period.

 

Soon after 2007?

 

Was 2018 watered down?

[Old Red]

Give a rough 5 year period.

 

Soon after 2007?

 

Was 2018 watered down?

 

I’ve already answered that. I don’t have an an exact time frame, and this discussion I don’t think can be answered by any analytics, because of the different eras. Was the steroid era better HR hitters? Could Drysdale, Koufax, Marachial, and Gibby be as good today? Would Hank hit 700 HR playing today. Could the A’s of the early 70’s win 3 titles in a row today, and would Cincinnati be the Big Red Machine today. Could the 2004, and 2018 Red Sox win in 1975? All could be yes, some, or no.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Boiling it down to basics presented here recently: the '23 Sox offense is pretty good, albeit frustrating at times. In any season, we'd all take our chances with a line-up with six guys with an OPS of .800 or better: Devers, Turner, Casas, Duran, Yoshida... and Pablo (.816 in 45 games!).

 

Since we can't live in the future, here's some contrast -- the '04 champs (pre-deadline) had an entire starting nine over .800 -- Manny, David, Trot, Tek, Nomah, Millar, Damon, Bellhorn, Mueller. They also had a five-man rotation that each threw between 178 and 226 innings (Bello leads '23 with 119 IP).

 

It was a different time, the steroid era. But back in the nicotine era, the '75 and '67 Red Sox each lost the World Series in seven games while missing a Hall of Famer in Jim Rice, or another 22-year old slugger on a Cooperstown tract in Tony Conigliaro. Each hero missed the entire Series with injury, as Boston barely lost to the best NL team of each decade...

 

Bloom said it's time to bet on Devers, and surround him with talent. Some of it just may be coming from the farm. Soon. Do you believe in magic? Yesssssss.

[moonslav59]

I’ve already answered that. I don’t have an an exact time frame, and this discussion I don’t think can be answered by any analytics, because of the different eras. Was the steroid era better HR hitters? Could Drysdale, Koufax, Marachial, and Gibby be as good today? Would Hank hit 700 HR playing today. Could the A’s of the early 70’s win 3 titles in a row today, and would Cincinnati be the Big Red Machine today. Could the 2004, and 2018 Red Sox win in 1975? All could be yes, some, or no.

 

I'm asking for your eye test guesstemate. About when did the decline begin?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

On the solution of Devers moving to first base... some guys make a smooth transition -- Youkilis won a Gold Glove, and Boggs played over half his rookie season there (when Boston already had a .300-hitting third baseman in Carney Lansford).

 

Then there's Miggy Cabrera, a negative dWAR in every season of his 21-year career. Same with Vlad Jr., in five years so far. Remember back when posters wanted to move JD Martinez to first base? He just turned 36 and still has never played one single inning there in 13 big league seasons.

 

From Moneyball: Billy Beane to Hatteberg, "It's not that hard, Scott. Tell him, Wash..."

Ron Washington, "It's incredibly hard."

[Bellhorn04]

I’ve already answered that. I don’t have an an exact time frame, and this discussion I don’t think can be answered by any analytics, because of the different eras. Was the steroid era better HR hitters? Could Drysdale, Koufax, Marachial, and Gibby be as good today? Would Hank hit 700 HR playing today. Could the A’s of the early 70’s win 3 titles in a row today, and would Cincinnati be the Big Red Machine today. Could the 2004, and 2018 Red Sox win in 1975? All could be yes, some, or no.

 

What you're saying is that you don't really know that it's watered-down, because it's impossible to make comparisons between eras.

[Bellhorn04]

On the solution of Devers moving to first base... some guys make a smooth transition -- Youkilis won a Gold Glove, and Boggs played over half his rookie season there (when Boston already had a .300-hitting third baseman in Carney Lansford).

 

Then there's Miggy Cabrera, a negative dWAR in every season of his 21-year career. Same with Vlad Jr., in five years so far. Remember back when posters wanted to move JD Martinez to first base? He just turned 36 and still has never played one single inning there in 13 big league seasons.

 

From Moneyball: Billy Beane to Hatteberg, "It's not that hard, Scott. Tell him, Wash..."

Ron Washington, "It's incredibly hard."

 

2024:

 

Devers to 1B

Yoshida to DH

Sign Matt Chapman for 3B (notin's suggestion)

 

Casas? Hmmm...now I'm stumped.

[notin]

2024:

 

Devers to 1B

Yoshida to DH

Sign Matt Chapman for 3B (notin's suggestion)

 

Casas? Hmmm...now I'm stumped.

 

Casas to DH. Leave Yoshida in LF…

[notin]

I’ve already answered that. I don’t have an an exact time frame, and this discussion I don’t think can be answered by any analytics, because of the different eras. Was the steroid era better HR hitters? Could Drysdale, Koufax, Marachial, and Gibby be as good today? Would Hank hit 700 HR playing today. Could the A’s of the early 70’s win 3 titles in a row today, and would Cincinnati be the Big Red Machine today. Could the 2004, and 2018 Red Sox win in 1975? All could be yes, some, or no.

 

Two points.

 

1. Not sure you grasp the concept of what “watered down” means.

 

2. There are far more reasons to believe and support the notion that the if the 2023 Oakland A’s played the Big Red Machine, they’d beat the snot out of them.

[Bellhorn04]

There are far more reasons to believe and support the notion that the if the 2023 Oakland A’s played the Big Red Machine, they’d beat the snot out of them.

 

Because of increased pitching velocity and spin rates, I assume?