Henry boo'd at Bruin game

[Old Red]

The ole "be careful what you wish for" comes to mind.

 

I understand fan frustration. I'm frustrated, too, despite expecting a lull was coming after 2016-2018. Maybe 2021 got my hopes up, too high, but I still think we have been heading down a path towards more sustainable winning. Maybe the farm is all hype and empty promises, but I respect the plan they chose.

 

Yes, mistakes were made, along the way that kept us from more enjoyable seasons along the way. The Lester and Bogey situations are burned in all our minds, but we've also made some good to great choices about letting some stars go (Pedro, Agon, Beckett,) even some younger ones like Ellsbury. It's a business to JH and most owners. Compared to 20-25 other current owners, JH is clearly a better owner. I guess I just don't find myself dreaming we find the next Steve Cohen to buy the team.

 

I see both sides on JH, and I’m fine with both sides. For the moment.

[moonslav59]

#1. Henry has a lot more things in the fire than he did in 2004, or 2007.

#2. The game has changed, by leaps, and bounds in the last 10 years.

 

Henry has always had a lot of "things on the fire." He has more money now than he did in 2004, too.

 

Yes, the game has changed, making it harder on teams that spend, spend, spend. There are more than financial penalties against big spenders.

 

JH has shown signs of increased spending in the last 12 months, and most deals are 2 or more years long- not one, like 2020, 2021 and even 2022. The farm full of "suspects" as you like to call them, is looking to mature very soon. To me, I see a window opening. I had hoped it would be flung open, this winter, but I can see how waiting for Mayer, Rafaela and others to join the big club and Casas, Bello, Whitlock, Mata and others to go through arbs at low costs makes some sense.

 

Patience is still a virtue, to me, but I don't expect everyone to agree. I can see why many people think the wait has already been too long. I just seem to be a bit more willing to wait it out.

[notin]

#1. Henry has a lot more things in the fire than he did in 2004, or 2007.

#2. The game has changed, by leaps, and bounds in the last 10 years.

 

The Sox payroll isn’t one of the top 6 in MLB for the first time in a long time, including the largely ineffective 2020 roster.

 

One year with a mid-range payroll isn’t necessarily a white flag. Especially with the two biggest free agents in MLB history potentially hitting the market in the next two years…

[moonslav59]

The Sox payroll isn’t one of the top 6 in MLB for the first time in a long time, including the largely ineffective 2020 roster.

 

One year with a mid-range payroll isn’t necessarily a white flag. Especially with the two biggest free agents in MLB history potentially hitting the market in the next two years…

 

Look at the spending since the deadline in 2019 to March 2022 and compare to the day we signed Story and beyond (still less than a year.)

 

IMO, the spending uptick has begun and will continue next winter, maybe even something special at the deadline, too.

 

We did nothing at the 2019 deadline. We cut and traded more salary after 2019 than we spent in the next 2 years- almost all the deals were one year stints.

 

New deals since March 2022:

313.5/10 Devers (begins in 2024)

140/6 Story

90/5 Yoshida

32/2 Jansen

22/2 Kluber

21.7/2 Turner

18.8M/4 Whitlock ('23-'26)

17.5/2 Martin

10/1 Kike (extensión)

7/1 Duvall

5.8M/2 J Rodriguez

 

This pattern is way different from March 2019 (Sale extension)-March 2022 (before Story signing.)

[mvp 78]

So, he will elevate to mediocre. Great!

 

Verdugo is already mediocre.

 

OFer fWAR 2020-22:

 

16th Mike Yastrzemski

17th Chris Taylor

18th Trent Grisham

19th Whit Merrifield

20th Kyle Schwarber (basically a DH, so loses value)

21st Julio Rodriguez (one year)

22nd Alex Verdugo

23rd Dylan Carlson

24th Myles Straw

25th Jesse Winker

26th Christian Yelich

27th Hunter Renfroe

 

34th in HR

29th in BB%

37th in ISO

23rd in wOBA

[mvp 78]

Henry Lover!

 

I was pissed about the way it went down with Bogey, but I'm still a Henry supporter.

 

4 rings after there were none before him. Yeah, I'll take that.

 

I want Henry to stop railing against Steve Cohen and to spend money like a big market club. Baseball players are expensive. If he doesn't want to pay them and blame the CBA that he agreed on, he needs to finds something else to do. He has never complained about the small market teams pocketing millions of dollars and not paying players or fielding AAAA teams. I'm not sure he really sees what is wrong with MLB today.

[mvp 78]

Do you really think Henry has the same drive today as he did when he first came to Boston when he wanted to take down the evil empire, and win championships? I also think the game has changed a lot more from 2018 to today then it did from 2013 to 2018 especially financially. To some fans Henry has a lifetime pass for the 4 championships the Red Sox has won under his ownership, and that is fine, but to others like I said earlier Henry has worn out his welcome, and they think it’s time for a new Era under a new owner, and that is fine too. Getting Boo’d when he shows his face in public I’m thinking is an embarrassment to his ego.

 

I don't think the Evil Empire stuff came from Henry. I think all that stuff was from Larry and Tom.

[mvp 78]

Does the guy get a lifetime free pass?

 

 

No.

[mvp 78]

#1. Henry has a lot more things in the fire than he did in 2004, or 2007.

#2. The game has changed, by leaps, and bounds in the last 10 years.

 

I don't think the other Fenway Sports Group entities get in the way of the Red Sox. If Bloom was left to run things on his own, the Sox may be in a better place. He probably wouldn't have gone over the CBT last season.

[mvp 78]

The Sox payroll isn’t one of the top 6 in MLB for the first time in a long time, including the largely ineffective 2020 roster.

 

One year with a mid-range payroll isn’t necessarily a white flag. Especially with the two biggest free agents in MLB history potentially hitting the market in the next two years…

 

They aren't signing Ohtani.

[mvp 78]

Look at the spending since the deadline in 2019 to March 2022 and compare to the day we signed Story and beyond (still less than a year.)

 

IMO, the spending uptick has begun and will continue next winter, maybe even something special at the deadline, too.

 

And you said they'd have a big offseason this year. They didn't. Stop moving the goalposts for them.

[Bellhorn04]

I want Henry to stop railing against Steve Cohen and to spend money like a big market club. Baseball players are expensive. If he doesn't want to pay them and blame the CBA that he agreed on, he needs to finds something else to do. He has never complained about the small market teams pocketing millions of dollars and not paying players or fielding AAAA teams. I'm not sure he really sees what is wrong with MLB today.

 

Steve Cohen might be screwing the pooch, it's a little early to say.

 

There might be a hard cap in the next CBA.

[Bellhorn04]

And you said they'd have a big offseason this year. They didn't. Stop moving the goalposts for them.

 

Saying it was a big offseason for Bloom isn't quite the same thing as saying it would be a splashy offseason.

[moonslav59]

Verdugo is already mediocre.

 

OFer fWAR 2020-22:

 

16th Mike Yastrzemski

17th Chris Taylor

18th Trent Grisham

19th Whit Merrifield

20th Kyle Schwarber (basically a DH, so loses value)

21st Julio Rodriguez (one year)

22nd Alex Verdugo

23rd Dylan Carlson

24th Myles Straw

25th Jesse Winker

26th Christian Yelich

27th Hunter Renfroe

 

34th in HR

29th in BB%

37th in ISO

23rd in wOBA

 

There are, in theory, 90 starting OF'ers in MLB (30 teams x 3 OF positions per team.) How is 22nd mediocre?

 

He's top 25%.

 

If you figure some rookies or players that were hurt are better, he's still probably top 1/3rd.

[moonslav59]

Steve Cohen might be screwing the pooch, it's a little early to say.

 

There might be a hard cap in the next CBA.

 

If the Mets win it all, he might decide to cut back on his own, too.

 

[moonslav59]

And you said they'd have a big offseason this year. They didn't. Stop moving the goalposts for them.

 

No, I'm holding them accountable for this off season. Despite the spike in contract costs for the best FAs, we had enough to spend to improve the team, significantly. Bloom & Co. chose to spread the money out more than I had hoped, but this is on them. If we don't get better, I'll be critical.

 

I said this was Bloom's "Flashpoint offseason" and could cement his "legacy" as a Sox GM. That has not changed.

 

That does not contradict or move any goalposts to say I think they seem to be eyeing 2024 more than 2023. That's their choice. It doesn't change the 2023 reckoning.

[moonslav59]

Saying it was a big offseason for Bloom isn't quite the same thing as saying it would be a splashy offseason.

 

To be honest, I did think it would be more "splashy" than it turned out, but with the spike in top FA salaries, I can't really say I wish we had outbid anyone for one of them.

 

Yoshida was the "splash," and since there is so much unknown about him, it's hard to see adding him as momentous, just yet.

 

Again, I had wished we'd pooled our money for 5-6 FAs, instead of the 7-8 we ended up adding, but I'm giving it a chance to play out.

 

I like the fact that we signed most to 2 or more years, not one, so a tiny bit more continuity is being put into place, now.

 

The Story injury hurts. The Sale question is still front and center, despite the hope dropping year-by-year on him.

 

We spent enough, this winter to be beyond excuses. If the injury-prone players Bloom added get hurt (including Story), it's not an excuse for him. This is his team, now, except for Sale, and just one salary drain guy carried over can no longer be used as an excuse.

 

Bloom chose quantity, but I think the 7-8 guys he signed have enough quality to make it all work out. I', excited to watch it all play out. I think we should have a fun season. There are so many interesting storylines to follow.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Whether you like Rodon or not, he has to be the only reason anyone thinks the below-.500 Yankees from the second half of '22 are the mffavorites again to win the World Series?

 

What other improvements have been made in the Bronx that make this season the one where they even get to the World Series for the first time since '09?!?!?!

 

Rodon was a splashy addition, but New York lost other members of the pitching staff that was great in the first half and mediocre after that. Maybe they can rotate 3 or 4 shortstops like they did in the playoffs; that oughta do it.

[Bellhorn04]

Whether you like Rodon or not, he has to be the only reason anyone thinks the below-.500 Yankees from the second half of '22 are the mffavorites again to win the World Series?

 

What other improvements have been made in the Bronx that make this season the one where they even get to the World Series for the first time since '09?!?!?!

 

Rodon was a splashy addition, but New York lost other members of the pitching staff that was great in the first half and mediocre after that. Maybe they can rotate 3 or 4 shortstops like they did in the playoffs; that oughta do it.

 

Well, we know Judge will get even better, because they're paying him a lot more.

[Old Red]

To be honest, I did think it would be more "splashy" than it turned out, but with the spike in top FA salaries, I can't really say I wish we had outbid anyone for one of them.

 

Yoshida was the "splash," and since there is so much unknown about him, it's hard to see adding him as momentous, just yet.

 

Again, I had wished we'd pooled our money for 5-6 FAs, instead of the 7-8 we ended up adding, but I'm giving it a chance to play out.

 

I like the fact that we signed most to 2 or more years, not one, so a tiny bit more continuity is being put into place, now.

 

The Story injury hurts. The Sale question is still front and center, despite the hope dropping year-by-year on him.

 

We spent enough, this winter to be beyond excuses. If the injury-prone players Bloom added get hurt (including Story), it's not an excuse for him. This is his team, now, except for Sale, and just one salary drain guy carried over can no longer be used as an excuse.

 

Bloom chose quantity, but I think the 7-8 guys he signed have enough quality to make it all work out. I', excited to watch it all play out. I think we should have a fun season. There are so many interesting storylines to follow.

 

I’ll agree there are many interesting storylines to follow this upcoming season, but outside of Casas, and or Bello breaking out I can’t see any of them being that exciting.

[mvp 78]

Steve Cohen might be screwing the pooch, it's a little early to say.

 

There might be a hard cap in the next CBA.

 

Players will never go for that, nor should they.

[mvp 78]

Saying it was a big offseason for Bloom isn't quite the same thing as saying it would be a splashy offseason.

 

That's not what I said and that's not what moon was saying back before the offseason began. The amount of payroll flexibility was seen as a big plus for bolstering the rotation and bringing in a top of the rotation starter, or at least two starters. There were visions of signing a high priced SS. These things didn't happen.

[Old Red]

That's not what I said and that's not what moon was saying back before the offseason began. The amount of payroll flexibility was seen as a big plus for bolstering the rotation and bringing in a top of the rotation starter, or at least two starters. There were visions of signing a high priced SS. These things didn't happen.

 

There were all kinds of speculation on here that the Red Sox had all kinds of money was coming off the books, and all of that money would be spent. I asked the question who on the Red Sox had said they would be spending up to the dreaded tax line. Trades were supposedly to been made, which didn’t happen, but I never bought the high priced SS thing, because I had speculated all along if healthy Story was going to be the SS after Bogey left, and all points that to that being the case. Of course the arm changed all that. Wishing, and hoping didn’t make Bloom do, which lots had hoped for.

[mvp 78]

There are, in theory, 90 starting OF'ers in MLB (30 teams x 3 OF positions per team.) How is 22nd mediocre?

 

He's top 25%.

 

If you figure some rookies or players that were hurt are better, he's still probably top 1/3rd.

 

By virtue of him being given a starting OFer spot for 3 straight seasons, he was able to amass a certain amount of stats. However, if you look at qualified players, he's in the bottom 1/4 of those. In 2022, he was 75th in fWAR for OFers with playing time similar to Lance Thomas of WSH. Seems mediocre enough to me.

[mvp 78]

Well, we know Judge will get even better, because they're paying him a lot more.

 

The extra money will keep him in a more expensive recovery bubble during downtime so that he's less likely to be injured.

[moonslav59]

Whether you like Rodon or not, he has to be the only reason anyone thinks the below-.500 Yankees from the second half of '22 are the mffavorites again to win the World Series?

 

What other improvements have been made in the Bronx that make this season the one where they even get to the World Series for the first time since '09?!?!?!

 

Rodon was a splashy addition, but New York lost other members of the pitching staff that was great in the first half and mediocre after that. Maybe they can rotate 3 or 4 shortstops like they did in the playoffs; that oughta do it.

 

They also lost some fine talent, although some had off years in 2022.

 

Most of their line-up is over 30.

[mvp 78]

@MacCerullo

The Forbes valuation rankings also paint an infuriating picture for several of MLB's small spending clubs. Among the top finishers in 2022 operating income:

 

Orioles: $64.7m

Athletics: $62.2m

Pirates: $51.5m

 

All three had total payrolls of under $60 million last season.

 

John Henry is a proponent of these teams not spending their money and the owners pocketing it.

[moonslav59]

@MacCerullo

The Forbes valuation rankings also paint an infuriating picture for several of MLB's small spending clubs. Among the top finishers in 2022 operating income:

 

Orioles: $64.7m

Athletics: $62.2m

Pirates: $51.5m

 

All three had total payrolls of under $60 million last season.

 

John Henry is a proponent of these teams not spending their money and the owners pocketing it.

 

Others not spending improves our odds of winning. Apparently, that is his bottom line.

[mvp 78]

Others not spending improves our odds of winning. Apparently, that is his bottom line.

 

Yeah, he doesn't seem to care much about that.

[mvp 78]

This is his bottom line moonsLav:

 

@BNightengale

Top 5 MLB team values per Forbes:

Yankees:$7.1 billion

Dodgers:$4.8

RedSox:$4.5

Cubs:$4.1

SFGiants:$3.7

 

Top 5 profits(2022)

Mariners:$83.8M

SFGiants:$74.9

RedSox:$71.6

Orioles:$64.7

A's:$62.2

 

These profits are just Operating Profits too, it excludes things like all of the real estate money that he makes off the land around Fenway.