Corey Kluber signs with Red Sox

[Bellhorn04]

I wish we had the million dollars more in draft bonus money and higher picks. I wish we had a stronger farm and roster from the returns in trade. We'd have more options, now, had we strengthened our farm and roster, last deadline. That's all I'm looking at. I'm not the business guy thinking about losing too many fans or viewers.

 

Hmmm...I think you're the guy who was worried that the JBJ buyout of $8 mill would cause Henry to spend less this year. Seems like a business thing.

[moonslav59]

Hmmm...I think you're the guy who was worried that the JBJ buyout of $8 mill would cause Henry to spend less this year. Seems like a business thing.

 

It's way different. The amount of bonus money you have to spend on draftees often determines who you can and do draft. Teams look at the bonus money as much as their slots when determining who to draft. Take the Romero pick. Part of the reason they took him was that they did not not need to pay him the slotted bonus money and had more left over later and were able to draft. The near $700K "saved" by drafting Romero allowed then to draft Anthony at about $1.7M overslot, in the third round.

 

The Sox paid under slot money to 7 of the top 8 picks, precisely so they could pay way overslot for Anthony in the 3rd round and Brannon in the 8th round ($550K over slot.)

 

[moonslav59]

Hmmm...I think you're the guy who was worried that the JBJ buyout of $8 mill would cause Henry to spend less this year. Seems like a business thing.

 

Again, I don't see myself as "worrying" about JBJ's added cost, but I do think JH might have decided to spend a little less this winter, because of JBJ's deal helping put us over the tax line in '22 and the $8M buyout check Henry had to write out, this winter.

 

Maybe not, but who knows? Either way, I don't worry about it, I just accept it likely matters to JH and the 2023 spending plan, even if just a little bit.

[Bellhorn04]

It's way different. The amount of bonus money you have to spend on draftees often determines who you can and do draft. Teams look at the bonus money as much as their slots when determining who to draft. Take the Romero pick. Part of the reason they took him was that they did not not need to pay him the slotted bonus money and had more left over later and were able to draft. The near $700K "saved" by drafting Romero allowed then to draft Anthony at about $1.7M overslot, in the third round.

 

The Sox paid under slot money to 7 of the top 8 picks, precisely so they could pay way overslot for Anthony in the 3rd round and Brannon in the 8th round ($550K over slot.)

 

 

Nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

 

Why don't we just assume that every dollar matters to Henry, and that's why he didn't want to have a fire sale at the 2022 deadline, because it might cost a pile of revenue?

 

It's a simple point, really.

[Bellhorn04]

Again, I don't see myself as "worrying" about JBJ's added cost, but I do think JH might have decided to spend a little less this winter, because of JBJ's deal helping put us over the tax line in '22 and the $8M buyout check Henry had to write out, this winter.

 

Maybe not, but who knows? Either way, I don't worry about it, I just accept it likely matters to JH and the 2023 spending plan, even if just a little bit.

 

And that's why the fire sale/lost revenue might matter too!!!

[notin]

Not the point I was trying to make.

 

Why don't we just assume that every dollar matters to Henry, and that's why he didn't want to have a fire sale at the 2022 deadline, because it might cost a pile of revenue?

 

It's a simple point, really.

 

Absolutely.

 

Who wants to buy tickets in August for a team that sold off everything that wasn’t nailed down in July?

 

And gotta keep those NESN ratings up if you want to charge top dollar to run an ad there…

[moonslav59]

Nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

 

Why don't we just assume that every dollar matters to Henry, and that's why he didn't want to have a fire sale at the 2022 deadline, because it might cost a pile of revenue?

 

It's a simple point, really.

 

You related it my comment on the extra $1M in bonus money during drafts.

 

If that was not intended, I missed the point. Sorry.

 

My point about having a fire sale was only partially about not going over the tax line, which would have made it easier to go over in 2023 and improved our draft positions and draft bonus money, I fully expected we'd get something very useful for Bogey, Wacha, Nate, Strahm and Vaz, and maybe something of use from Hill. I did not expect much for JD, at all, unless we paid a chunk of his salary, which we could have done on several players to improve return and still gotten us under the tax line.

 

The main reason was to acquire players and prospects with more team control. While the tax line was also important, I never said it was the major goal was to save JH a boatload of money in salaries. He may have chosen not to sell off a bunch of fan faves so as to not upset fans to the point that they stopped coming to games or watching them on NESN, not just in 2022 but for 2023, too. Yes, he cares about the business part of the team, and much more than I do.

 

I tend to think winning is good for business and long-sustained winning would lead to more money making in the long run, but I assume they know what is better for their bottom line than I do, and just how much of a priority that is.

 

Seeing how pissed fans seem to be, now, I can see why not wanting that to happen in August could sway their choices, but that looks like a joke, in hindsight, because I think fans are more pissed, now than had they traded bogey and others to better the team in 2023 and beyond. I can't imagine it being any worse than it has been the last couple weeks.

 

I admit, I'm biased and seemingly in a tiny minority among fellow Sox fans to want our extended future to be as strong as possible, even if it means sacrificing, today (and yesteryear.)

[Bobe2]

And that's why the fire sale/lost revenue might matter too!!!

 

Did you know that the 2022 Redsox were the only team to exceed the luxury tax and not make the playoffs in 2022, money not spent well

[moonslav59]

And that's why the fire sale/lost revenue might matter too!!!

 

Okay. I get that, and yes, pissing off fans is one way to lose revenue.

 

How did that work out, though?

 

Fans happy, now?

[Bellhorn04]

Did you know that the 2022 Redsox were the only team to exceed the luxury tax and not make the playoffs in 2022, money not spent well

 

Yes, I did know that. Personally it doesn't matter much to me. We complained when they didn't exceed the threshold in 2021 because they were being cheap. We complained when they did exceed the threshold in 2022 because they were being stupid.

[moonslav59]

Did you know that the 2022 Redsox were the only team to exceed the luxury tax and not make the playoffs in 2022, money not spent well

 

It really was an absurd choice, and it stifled what I thought was always their #1 priority: the future of the team.

 

I realize a balance has to be maintained by keeping the here and now team relevant enough to keep fans in their seats and paying to watch them on TV.

 

They missed on both fronts.

[moonslav59]

Yes, I did know that. Personally it doesn't matter much to me. We complained when they didn't exceed the threshold in 2021 because they were being cheap. We complained when they did exceed the threshold in 2022 because they were being stupid.

 

The only reason I care about going over or not depends on if the plan is to spend bigger the next year (by staying under this year) or by going for glory, this year, because it seems worth it, knowing it will likely force a reset in 1-2 years, afterwards.

[Bellhorn04]

Okay. I get that, and yes, pissing off fans is one way to lose revenue.

 

How did that work out, though?

 

Fans happy, now?

 

You're still not getting it. We're talking about Henry not liking to lose money. We're not talking about crybaby fans any more.

[moonslav59]

You're still not getting it. We're talking about Henry not liking to lose money. We're not talking about crybaby fans any more.

 

Crybaby fans who stop coming to games or paying for NESN or just threatening to would lead to losing money. YES, I get it, and that was likely a big reason they did not do even a mini fire sale (beyond trading Vaz.)

 

Losing fan interest affects the bottom line.

 

Do you think JH felt the team would lose money, if they had a fire sale or mini fire sale? I do, at least temporarily, and to me, the main reason for that would be pissed off fans.

 

I think the two things are related. I thought that was one of several points being made, last deadline- along with the sliver of hope not being extinguished and other lesser reasons.

[Bobe2]

It really was an absurd choice, and it stifled what I thought was always their #1 priority: the future of the team.

 

I realize a balance has to be maintained by keeping the here and now team relevant enough to keep fans in their seats and paying to watch them on TV.

 

They missed on both fronts.

 

The panda, Hanley and Price contracts are gone, Bogaerts and crew is gone only remaining player is Denver’s, how can we be in such a poor place, we have 1 star in Devers and a surrounding cast of inexperienced and unproven players, or old and injured take your pick, we are still hovering around the tax line and this team sure looks like a cellar repeater, if teams like the Padres can have three or four stars on the team and spend about what we spent last year why can’t we, Bogaerts contract put them over by $3 million or so, how can they do it what do they know that Bloom doesn’t

[notin]

You're still not getting it. We're talking about Henry not liking to lose money. We're not talking about crybaby fans any more.

 

Staying in the race while 3 games out was the right move.

 

Remember the 2019 Sox were 3 games out of the wild card when they acquired Andrew Cashner on July 13th. The deadline that year came and went with no further moves from Dombrowski. He didn’t but any more. He didn’t sell anyone off. How come no one ever questions that (in)decision?

[moonslav59]

Staying in the race while 3 games out was the right move.

 

Remember the 2019 Sox were 3 games out of the wild card when they acquired Andrew Cashner on July 13th. The deadline that year came and went with no further moves from Dombrowski. He didn’t but any more. He didn’t sell anyone off. How come no one ever questions that (in)decision?

 

They did, then, but it turned out, that was the beginning of the shift from using the farm to reload the big club or to spend bigly on additions meant to "get us over the top."

 

It might have also been when DD pushed too hard for making moves and or spending money the top brass was not on board with, and the split was made.

 

The whole shift actually began slightly before Bloom was hired.

[moonslav59]

The panda, Hanley and Price contracts are gone, Bogaerts and crew is gone only remaining player is Denver’s, how can we be in such a poor place, we have 1 star in Devers and a surrounding cast of inexperienced and unproven players, or old and injured take your pick, we are still hovering around the tax line and this team sure looks like a cellar repeater, if teams like the Padres can have three or four stars on the team and spend about what we spent last year why can’t we, Bogaerts contract put them over by $3 million or so, how can they do it what do they know that Bloom doesn’t

 

I see us as being in a way better place- future wise, than we were 1, 2, 3 and even 3.5 years ago. To me, that was the top priority, whether we liked/like it or not.

 

The farm looks way better, on paper.

The 40 man roster depth looks better than the 2019 team, in terms of future outlook and projections based on age.

The budget, as you pointed out, is almost totally rid of deadwood contracts, and Sale may be able to bring us to zero deadwood with a good 2023 season.

 

I'm not saying this to distract from the pain we all feel about losing Betts and Bogey, and maybe even back to Lester. I'm still more hopeful about Devers than many seem to be, and I don't blame anyone for expecting him to go, next. I have nothing to base my hope on, expect that I do n ot think JH is this dumb.

 

If we trade Devers, I'll be very pissed. It still won't change the fact that our farm should start helping the big team in ways we haven't seen since Devers in 2017, and really, he has been the only major addition from the farm since Bogey in late 2013. Beni and Houck we good ones, but not on the level of Betts and Bogey.

 

Once guy since 2013. That's 10 years. This has to be viewed as a major reason we have just 1 ring since 2013.

 

Even the 2018 ring was largely a result of prospects added in 2013 or earlier and several FAs and costly trade acquisitions.

[moonslav59]

Many were pissed we only got Schwarber, Robles, Davis and later, Iggy and Shaw in 2021, too.

 

That season had a winning feel to it, to me. Just my opinion, but I didn't feel it in 2019 or 2022. I respect others for their views and reasonings. I just disgareed, then, and still do now.

 

If I knew our owner was willing to spend and pay lux taxes like others now seem to be willing to do, I'd think differently. Until he does, I'm going to keep trying to weigh the balancing act between the here and now and the long term future outlook.

 

I realize, I may be close to alone thinking this way, but I plan on living at least another decade or two, and winning in 2024 or 2028 is just as important as 2022 was.

Edited December 30, 2022 by moonslav59

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Staying in the race while 3 games out was the right move.

 

Remember the 2019 Sox were 3 games out of the wild card when they acquired Andrew Cashner on July 13th. The deadline that year came and went with no further moves from Dombrowski. He didn’t but any more. He didn’t sell anyone off. How come no one ever questions that (in)decision?

 

I thought it was great when Dombro targeted and acquired the best starter available well before the deadline. And then Cashner went from stud Oriole to Oreo cookie. WTF. His ERA in Fenway in 2019 was over 8 runs per 9 innings. Cashner, who was 9-3 with a 3.83 in Baltimore, won one start for the Red Sox and never pitched in the majors again.

 

As a fan I was happy Dombrowski was so decisive. And then I was horrified that his acquisition was so bad...

[moonslav59]

I thought it was great when Dombro targeted and acquired the best starter available well before the deadline. And then Cashner went from stud Oriole to Oreo cookie. WTF. His ERA in Fenway in 2019 was over 8 runs per 9 innings. Cashner, who was 9-3 with a 3.83 in Baltimore, won one start for the Red Sox and never pitched in the majors again.

 

As a fan I was happy Dombrowski was so decisive. And then I was horrified that his acquisition was so bad...

 

By "well before the [2019] deadline" do you mean Nate at the 2018 deadline? Or are you really calling Cashner the best available based on a couple months of stats?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

By "well before the [2019] deadline" do you mean Nate at the 2018 deadline? Or are you really calling Cashner the best available based on a couple months of stats?

 

I was responding to notin regarding Cashner in 2019. When Boston got him, he was 9-3, 3.83 as a starter for a team that would lose 108 games.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Dombrowski acquired a lot of name pitchers -- players who were known commodities and not discarded comebacks (except Fister, who was ok, since he beat Boston in the '13 LCS).

Takes at the time:

 

Liked the Kimbrel trade, because a closer was needed, and an elite closer was available in his prime;

Disliked the Price signing, because he wasn't Scherzer, and Price was already a sore loser when Papi took him deep;

Hated the Pomeranz trade -- for a number one pitching prospect? The Red Sox never have a true number one pitching prospect, even when one is rated one (Owen);

Loved the Sale trade, especially for keeping Benintendi over Moncada, who already owned a fleet of luxury cars at age 21

Liked Eovaldi for Beeks -- a starter who threw a hundred for a prospect (loved it after he kept beating the Yankees when it counted)

Liked Cashner, because that rotation needed reinforcements... then he morphed into a Mendoza/Gagne conglomeration from the Epstein era...

[moonslav59]

I was responding to notin regarding Cashner in 2019. When Boston got him, he was 9-3, 3.83 as a starter for a team that would lose 108 games.

 

Okay. I don't remember thinking he was a major addition, at the time. Wasn't it like 2 weeks before the deadline? I don't think we gave up anything considered promising.

 

Worth a try, though. They did nothing at the deadline, despite being 59-50.

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski acquired a lot of name pitchers -- players who were known commodities and not discarded comebacks (except Fister, who was ok, since he beat Boston in the '13 LCS).

Takes at the time:

 

Liked the Kimbrel trade, because a closer was needed, and an elite closer was available in his prime;

Disliked the Price signing, because he wasn't Scherzer, and Price was already a sore loser when Papi took him deep;

Hated the Pomeranz trade -- for a number one pitching prospect? The Red Sox never have a true number one pitching prospect, even when one is rated one (Owen);

Loved the Sale trade, especially for keeping Benintendi over Moncada, who already owned a fleet of luxury cars at age 21

Liked Eovaldi for Beeks -- a starter who threw a hundred for a prospect (loved it after he kept beating the Yankees when it counted)

Liked Cashner, because that rotation needed reinforcements... then he morphed into a Mendoza/Gagne conglomeration from the Epstein era...

 

There was also Miley

 

He had a tougher time with pen arms, except for Kimbrel, although even he turned into a pin & needles pitcher at the end.

Thornburg

Carson Smith

Mujica

Ogando

Abad

Layne

 

Still, the guy put together a fine staff with big checks and trade capital.

 

[notin]

There was also Miley

 

He had a tougher time with pen arms, except for Kimbrel, although even he turned into a pin & needles pitcher at the end.

Thornburg

Carson Smith

Mujica

Ogando

Abad

Layne

 

Still, the guy put together a fine staff with big checks and trade capital.

 

 

No one liked Miley. From what I heard, he was just an unlikable and unpleasant human being. He is a law-abiding citizen, but many want him locked up anyway.

 

He’s currently a free agent and a talented pitcher when healthy. But if Bloom doesn’t talk to him, I’ll understand completely…

[notin]

I was responding to notin regarding Cashner in 2019. When Boston got him, he was 9-3, 3.83 as a starter for a team that would lose 108 games.

 

And yet he was available for nothing, two NPCs named Noelberth Romero and Elio Prado, with the latter being the better known for his rectangular frozen pizzas.

 

It was like DD just quit right there, despite the team being 9 games over .500 and 3 out of the WC. That team was a massive letdown, and DD just let them die.

 

That’s one reason I liked going for it in 2022. Most deadline trade candidates never get dealt, so I had doubts about moving all of Eovaldi, Martinez and Bogaerts. I liked using Diekman to upgrade over Vazquez.

 

But damnit, that team needed PITCHING!!

[moonslav59]

And yet he was available for nothing, two NPCs named Noelberth Romero and Elio Prado, with the latter being the better known for his rectangular frozen pizzas.

 

It was like DD just quit right there, despite the team being 9 games over .500 and 3 out of the WC. That team was a massive letdown, and DD just let them die.

 

That’s one reason I liked going for it in 2022. Most deadline trade candidates never get dealt, so I had doubts about moving all of Eovaldi, Martinez and Bogaerts. I liked using Diekman to upgrade over Vazquez.

 

But damnit, that team needed PITCHING!!

 

There was also the added promise of returning key players from the IL. It seemed like half the team went on the IL in July and mostw ere expected back, including Paxton and Sale. I get why there was still hope, but to me that was the best excuse- the feeling the team could do better with everyone back, and not based on how the team looked at the time.

 

I didn't get the sense Sox fans were all that excited about our chances in late July 2019 or 2022. the feeling was much different in 2021.

 

To me, it was over a few weeks before the deadline. We lost like a million series in a row and showed no energy or spirit. I know, I know- real empirical proof.

 

It was more of a gut feeling, but I felt we were toast in '19 and '22.

[vjcsmoke]

this rotation would’ve been nasty… in 2016

 

True. Corey Kluber was good... 4 years ago. A retread signing whom we hope can be the 4th or 5th starting pitcher. If he's in the top 3, we're probably in trouble.

[moonslav59]

True. Corey Kluber was good... 4 years ago. A retread signing whom we hope can be the 4th or 5th starting pitcher. If he's in the top 3, we're probably in trouble.

 

2022

 

Out of 150 SP'er (5 per each 30 teams), Kluber finished

 

38th in fWAR (making him a solid #2 SP)

 

75th xFIP at 3.90 (making him a solid #3 SP) half SP'ers better/ half worse

 

68th WHIP at 1.21 (solid #3)

 

At $10M/1, he's the steal of the SP'er FA class of 2022.