Red Sox Sign Masataka Yoshida

[moonslav59]

That's fair. It's nice to have you aboard the GOshida train.

 

Maybe the Sox scouts actually knew what they were doing (on this one, anyway.)

 

Maybe.

[Hugh2]

Maybe the Sox scouts actually knew what they were doing (on this one, anyway.)

 

Maybe.

 

It also goes to show you that you can't let the past haunt your future.

 

So much of the narrative was "well what about Rusney, or Dice-K, or all these other guys" Well it's a two way street. So far Yoshida is looking like the next Ichiro, but with a little bit more pop. And, he's a super likeable guy too, if he performs for the long haul he's really going to leave a mark here. It's still early but it looks like the Sox knocked this one out of the park.

[moonslav59]

It also goes to show you that you can't let the past haunt your future.

 

So much of the narrative was "well what about Rusney, or Dice-K, or all these other guys" Well it's a two way street. So far Yoshida is looking like the next Ichiro, but with a little bit more pop. And, he's a super likeable guy too, if he performs for the long haul he's really going to leave a mark here. It's still early but it looks like the Sox knocked this one out of the park.

 

Very true.

 

I do think the cases you mentioned differ in significant ways.

 

Rusney: I did not get the sense, this was their guy. It was more reactive to missing out on Abreu the previous year. Still, a big swing and miss.

 

Dice-K: was a tough nut to crack. He was a very good pitcher, even with us, but I think the routine switch messed him up. That as hard to foresee. He wasn't a total bust, but when you factor in the posting fee... YIKES!

 

Apparently, Sox scouts have been over-the-top high on Yoshida for years.`This was clearly the guy they wanted. It does not lessen the past mistakes, in any way, but it is a good sign, so far. (The season is still early.)

 

I liked the signing, when made, and was glad we missed out on Abreu.

Edited May 17, 2023 by moonslav59

[notin]

Definitely early

 

Yoshida after 155 PA - .888OPS

Fukudome after 155 PA - .889OPS

[moonslav59]

Definitely early

 

Yoshida after 155 PA - .888OPS

Fukudome after 155 PA - .889OPS

 

Indeed. Way too early to know much.

 

The sample size is larger than the one some used to jump against the signing after the first 2-3 weeks, though.

[Old Red]

I judge every game myself from the first game of the year to the last game of the year, and then a final judgement at the end, so it’s like GOshida, or NOshida just like last year when it was Story Land is open, or Story Land is closed.

[mvp 78]

It also goes to show you that you can't let the past haunt your future.

 

So much of the narrative was "well what about Rusney, or Dice-K, or all these other guys" Well it's a two way street. So far Yoshida is looking like the next Ichiro, but with a little bit more pop. And, he's a super likeable guy too, if he performs for the long haul he's really going to leave a mark here. It's still early but it looks like the Sox knocked this one out of the park.

 

I still believe Rusney was signed just because they missed out on Abreu. Shame!

[mvp 78]

Definitely early

 

Yoshida after 155 PA - .888OPS

Fukudome after 155 PA - .889OPS

 

notin does Orientalism.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Too early is overrated here. This isn't some high school kid getting his first taste of pro ball in instructional leagues or even a raw minor leaguer suddenly promoted in an emergency.

 

Yoshida will be 30 in July and has been a professional for a long time. Slightly different baseball, park conditions, pitching repertoires, etc, but still hardball: making adjustments all the time.

Analytic departments -- and better yet, pitching staffs -- will write a book on him soon enough. But we know it'll be a first draft... that Masa gets to edit. And he has a lot more experience with the red pen and word processor than the average rookie.

[moonslav59]

Too early is overrated here. This isn't some high school kid getting his first taste of pro ball in instructional leagues or even a raw minor leaguer suddenly promoted in an emergency.

 

Yoshida will be 30 in July and has been a professional for a long time. Slightly different baseball, park conditions, pitching repertoires, etc, but still hardball: making adjustments all the time.

Analytic departments -- and better yet, pitching staffs -- will write a book on him soon enough. But we know it'll be a first draft... that Masa gets to edit. And he has a lot more experience with the red pen and word processor than the average rookie.

 

If he has one more bad stretch like his first 3 weeks, which is entirely possible, the doubts will be highlighted.

 

I'm certainly liking what I see and think he is the real deal, but it is still early, even for an old foggie, IMO.

[Maxbialystock]

Excellent discussion of Yoshida. I too have been impressed. His DWAR sucks and drags his WAR down--and I'm not so sure his defense is that bad.

 

Not that total bases is a key stat, but I do check. To date Devers has 86, Dugo 81, Yoshida 69 (with 7 fewer games than Devers and Dugo), Turner 65, and Duran 55 (with 15 fewer games than Devers/Dugo). I believe those 5 are the heart of the Sox lineup--a lineup that has been astonishingly good so far.

[jad]

In fairness to Dice-K, without him, there's no WS championship.

 

So there's that.

[moonslav59]

Excellent discussion of Yoshida. I too have been impressed. His DWAR sucks and drags his WAR down--and I'm not so sure his defense is that bad.

 

Not that total bases is a key stat, but I do check. To date Devers has 86, Dugo 81, Yoshida 69 (with 7 fewer games than Devers and Dugo), Turner 65, and Duran 55 (with 15 fewer games than Devers/Dugo). I believe those 5 are the heart of the Sox lineup--a lineup that has been astonishingly good so far.

 

It seems like Fenway sometimes hurts LF'er's defensive metrics, but then again, maybe they all have not been all that good.

[moonslav59]

In fairness to Dice-K, without him, there's no WS championship.

 

So there's that.

 

Hard to know. I'm pretty sure we'd have signed someone else had we missed out on Dice-K, but yes, he was a big part of winning that year.

[mvp 78]

It seems like Fenway sometimes hurts LF'er's defensive metrics, but then again, maybe they all have not been all that good.

 

Worse defensive LFers:

 

Kyle Schwarber

Ian Happ

Jurickson Profar

 

He's pretty bad out there. He's bat is good enough to keep him out there though.

[moonslav59]

Worse defensive LFers:

 

Kyle Schwarber

Ian Happ

Jurickson Profar

 

He's pretty bad out there. He's bat is good enough to keep him out there though.

 

He certainly has not looked plus. It's nice he has thrown out sa couple runners- I believe both in very key situations.

 

BTW, on UZR/150 and the 29 LF'ers with 140+ innings in LF, he ranks 21st at -9.6. (Shows how bad many MLB LF'ers are on D.)

 

His -3 DRS places him 25th, but he has less innings than Profar, also at -3, so he is really 26th. Perhaps Pillar is the same or worse at -2 in 146 innings as Yoshida is -3 in 210.

 

Anyway you look at it, he has not been good. Maybe Duran can give him some pointers on how to improve his D in just months.

[Maxbialystock]

Worse defensive LFers:

 

Kyle Schwarber

Ian Happ

Jurickson Profar

 

He's pretty bad out there. He's bat is good enough to keep him out there though.

 

I'm not sure he's bad. He has 2 outfield assists and 1 error. Dugo--granted, playing a much bigger RF--has 3 outfield assists and 1 error and his DWAR is +0.3.

 

Fenway left field is unique in MLB. Granted Sox leftfielders only play about half of their games at Fenway, I still think the green monster automatically reduces the Sox leftfielder's DWAR.

 

Care to guess what Manny's DWAR was in 2007 when he had 8 outfield assists and 2 errors? -1.9. Jason Bay in 2009 with 15 outfield assists and 0 errors? -0.7. Andrew Benintendi in 2018 with 12 outfield assists and 4 errors? -0.6. He's the same guy awarded the defensive play of the season for that great grab vs. the Astros in the ALCS--in Houston, of course.

 

If you play left field for the Red Sox, you are guaranteed a negative DWAR. The exception might have been Jimmy Piersall, who played CF for the Sox with Ted Williams in LF. Piersall once said he should be paid double because the had to cover CF and LF.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Maxbialystock

[Hugh2]

Very true.

 

I do think the cases you mentioned differ in significant ways.

 

Rusney: I did not get the sense, this was their guy. It was more reactive to missing out on Abreu the previous year. Still, a big swing and miss.

 

Dice-K: was a tough nut to crack. He was a very good pitcher, even with us, but I think the routine switch messed him up. That as hard to foresee. He wasn't a total bust, but when you factor in the posting fee... YIKES!

 

Apparently, Sox scouts have been over-the-top high on Yoshida for years.`This was clearly the guy they wanted. It does not lessen the past mistakes, in any way, but it is a good sign, so far. (The season is still early.)

 

I liked the signing, when made, and was glad we missed out on Abreu.

 

Absolutely they're very different. My point was that there were some who didn't see it any differently, and because one international free agent failed Yoshida was doomed to fail. Which is just a bad philosophy to have.

 

 

Free agents are like at bats, just because you swung and missed doesn't mean you are not going to hit the next one out of the park.

[Hugh2]

I still believe Rusney was signed just because they missed out on Abreu. Shame!

 

Maybe, but someone could have said Yoshida was signed just because they missed out on Suzuki. It's not like Rusney wasn't highly regarded. Baseball America had him ranked #21 at some point.

[Hugh2]

Worse defensive LFers:

 

Kyle Schwarber

Ian Happ

Jurickson Profar

 

He's pretty bad out there. His bat is good enough to keep him out there though.

 

Another narrative that played out in this thread was Bloom was bad for signing Yoshida to the money he could have had Schwarber for. Right now I'm not sure anyone would take Kyle over Yoshida out there.

[moonslav59]

I'm not sure he's bad. He has 2 outfield assists and 1 error. Dugo--granted, playing a much bigger RF--has 3 outfield assists and 1 error and his DWAR is +0.3.

 

Fenway left field is unique in MLB. Granted Sox leftfielders only play about half of their games at Fenway, I still think the green monster automatically reduces the Sox leftfielder's DWAR.

 

Care to guess what Manny's DWAR was in 2007? -1.9. Jason Bay in 2009 with 15 outfield assists and 0 errors? -0.7. Andrew Benintendi in 2018 with 12 outfield assists and 4 errors? -0.6. He's the same guy awarded the defensive play of the season for that great grab vs. the Astros in the ALCS--in Houston, of course.

 

If you play left field for the Red Sox, you are guaranteed a negative DWAR. The exception might have been Jimmy Piersall, who played CF for the Sox with Ted Williams in LF. Piersall once said he should be paid double because the had to cover CF and LF.

 

Beni did have some good ratings in other years (+11 and +12 in '17 and '18). All-in-all:

+23 in about 3600 innings w BOS

+9 in about 2500 innings w KCR/CWS

 

Small sample alert:

2022 Tommy Pham:

-3 DRS w BOS (-9.9 UZR/150)

+3 DRS 2 CIN (-4.1)

 

[notin]

notin does Orientalism.

 

Two similar age players with similar backgrounds as of now yielding similar results…

[moonslav59]

Another narrative that played out in this thread was Bloom was bad for signing Yoshida to the money he could have had Schwarber for. Right now I'm not sure anyone would take Kyle over Yoshida out there.

 

Indeed, and Schwarber might be worse on D and would not have made a big enough difference in 2022 to change the outcome.

 

Would anyone trade Turner for JD?

 

Wong/McGuire for Vaz/Plawecki?

 

Duvall/Duran for JBJ?

 

Kike/Chang/Reyes for Bogey? (Okay, okay)

 

Jansen/Martin/Joely for Diekman/Strahm/Robles/Davis?

 

Wacha/Nate/Hill for Kluber? (Okay, okay....)

[notin]

I still believe Rusney was signed just because they missed out on Abreu. Shame!

 

Maybe.

 

But he was also a Cuban star and the Sox needed OF help (Bradley still had a career OPS under .600 and Betts had just started learning center field - not right field, center field)…

[mvp 78]

Maybe.

 

But he was also a Cuban star and the Sox needed OF help (Bradley still had a career OPS under .600 and Betts had just started learning center field - not right field, center field)…

 

The signings in 14/15 and behavior of the front office was very weird. I don't know who had the ultimate say. You would think that Ben winning a WS in 13 would give him leverage to build the organization for a few years, but they ended up with:

1. no FA pitchers over 30 nonsense

2. Lester lowball

3. Pablo

4. Hanley

5. Rusney

6. Porcello trade

7. ERod trade

8. Allen Craig/Joe Kelly trade

9. Pierzynski

10. Moncada signing

11. Miley/Masterson (5 Aces)

[Maxbialystock]

Beni did have some good ratings in other years (+11 and +12 in '17 and '18). All-in-all:

+23 in about 3600 innings w BOS

+9 in about 2500 innings w KCR/CWS

 

Small sample alert:

2022 Tommy Pham:

-3 DRS w BOS (-9.9 UZR/150)

+3 DRS 2 CIN (-4.1)

 

 

Let's try this. Ted Williams was the quintessential leftfielder in Fenway. He even said he regretted not paying more attention to his defense. But the overwhelming fact about Fenway is that a really good leftfielder is wasted there. Indeed, on most teams the leftfielder is normally the weakest if only because he doesn't have to make long throws as CF's and RF's customarily do. I have not forgotten the terrific grab Sandy Amoros made against Yogi Berra--I think in the 1955 WS.

[moonslav59]

Let's try this. Ted Williams was the quintessential leftfielder in Fenway. He even said he regretted not paying more attention to his defense. But the overwhelming fact about Fenway is that a really good leftfielder is wasted there. Indeed, on most teams the leftfielder is normally the weakest if only because he doesn't have to make long throws as CF's and RF's customarily do. I have not forgotten the terrific grab Sandy Amoros made against Yogi Berra--I think in the 1955 WS.

 

Yes. It might take time to learn the wall and all the quirks, but the ultimate saving grace of LF in Fenway, is that a misplayed ball is not going to get too far away from you, unless it takes some weird bounce off a corner.

 

My ex brother-in-law called it the "pick the ball up when it stops rolling defense."

[Maxbialystock]

Yes. It might take time to learn the wall and all the quirks, but the ultimate saving grace of LF in Fenway, is that a misplayed ball is not going to get too far away from you, unless it takes some weird bounce off a corner.

 

My ex brother-in-law called it the "pick the ball up when it stops rolling defense."

 

Very apt phrase by your former brother-in-law. The quirks are a challenge, but it overall the Green Monster simplifies the defense.

[Hugh2]

Indeed, and Schwarber might be worse on D and would not have made a big enough difference in 2022 to change the outcome.

 

Would anyone trade Turner for JD?

 

Wong/McGuire for Vaz/Plawecki?

 

Duvall/Duran for JBJ?

 

Kike/Chang/Reyes for Bogey? (Okay, okay)

 

Jansen/Martin/Joely for Diekman/Strahm/Robles/Davis?

 

Wacha/Nate/Hill for Kluber? (Okay, okay....)

 

I think it may be more appropriate to pin Duvall/Duran vs. Renfroe and not JBJ, but yeah the way Duvall looked and Duran is playing that's an obvious answer.

[moonslav59]

I think it may be more appropriate to pin Duvall/Duran vs. Renfroe and not JBJ, but yeah the way Duvall looked and Duran is playing that's an obvious answer.

 

Fair enough, but I was looking at the changes made from only 2022 to 2023.

 

BTW, why does Renfroe keep changing teams, so quickly?