2023 Free Agents

[Hugh2]

The laudable record of DD in Boston got him fired, but the track record, or should I say bad track record of Bloom in Boston gets him applauded.

 

Applauded? Here you go again making up arguments.

 

“when you have no argument you need to make one up”. master Jedi supreme commander of the universe.

[dgalehouse]

The boss gets the credit or the blame. The person that is in charge has to be accountable for the results, be they good or bad.

[Hugh2]

The boss gets the credit or the blame. The person that is in charge has to be accountable for the results, be they good or bad.

 

A good boss takes all the blame whether or not it’s his fault. An intelligent fan base can acknowledge there’s plenty of slices of blame pie to pass around.

[Old Red]

The boss gets the credit or the blame. The person that is in charge has to be accountable for the results, be they good or bad.

 

And like I keep repeating Sam Kennedy said Bloom, and the rest of management all failed, and he didn’t list all kinds of excuses that run rampant on here.

[Hugh2]

Haha exhibit 1.a

[moonslav59]

Didn’t realize you could decipher hyperventilating through internet posts? If anything….THAT is hyperbole. But it’s a free country, you’re free to sling mud in place of actual well structured arguments all you’d like.

 

The proof is in the pudding, they weren’t “nothing” moves they were depth moves. And some were definitely more critical than others, I don’t care enough to go back and cite, but those paying attention in here know just that.

 

Depth moves matter, every team sustains injuries during a season. Some more than others, having a 2nd or 3rd string guy that (god forbid) you have to bring up for a week or two who can field his position is valuable. Value is not nothing.

 

Also, minor league moves for guys who will probably never reach the majors holds value too. Can he field his position? Afterall, the Tristan Casas’s of the world need someone to throw to them, and the Marcelo Mayers of the world need someone to throw too. Minor league depth has value. And are those people good guys? With strong work ethics? After all these are people, young people, and who they surround themselves with can have a tremendous impact on who they develop to become.

 

We’ve all seen the finished product of what this system can develop of likes of Xander Bogaerts, Mookie Betts, Rafeal Devers, and hopefully a Tristan Casas and Brayan Bello, and hopefully Miguel Bleis and Marcelo Mayer one day. Fielding good teams with good people around those guys may hold tremendous value and may be part of the reason why guys like Devers and Bogaerts are the men, and ball players they’re today. These just aren’t developing athletes they’re developing people, of highschool and college age playing away from home.

 

These are not nothing moves, they’re just moves that don’t matter to you because you don’t see their significance. And yes, these moves were insulted far and wide across all of Sox Nation. So let’s stop with the gaslighting, I think even Red would admit many questioned these moves. I believe the term used was “dumpster diving” by many.

 

How else was Bloom supposed to fill 12 urgent slots on the 40 and another 4-6 somewhat urgent slots on $40M?

 

Not taking that into account, along with a farm that produce only Houck since mid 2017, while looking at only the W-L records is somehow viewed as being more "objective."

 

I'm laughing- not "hyperventilating" or getting "very upset."

 

The part that gets me the most is when we point out posters missing the full picture, we are branded as Bloom lovers and supportive of everything he has done. How is that worse than calling someone who said he'd never hire Cora as a "hater" or saying he was "against the Bloom hiring from day one," as a basher any worse?

 

I think I'm closer to the truth than Old Red has been, but I expect he and others to take issue with that.

 

Cue: bringing up all the things I got wrong as somehow proving they were right.

 

Okay, notin and a select few others liked or were okay with the JBJ trade, but that doesn't mean they loved, liked or were even okay with every move Bloom made. I got bashed for "scratching my head" over a few moves but am often lumped in with the "Bloom lovers," whoever they are.

 

[cp176]

This is a bit hyperbolic and hyperventilating. Breath into a paper bag for a minute. No one on here criticized Blooms depth moves. They were identified for what they are— nothing moves. It seems that you cannot come to grips with the track records of Bloom and Ben Cherries (both of whom were at the helm of 2022 last place clubs) versus the laudable record of DD’s career.

 

My God - We now have two of them waxing prolifically in an attempt to baffle us with the ******** I think. I cannot read that much without a bit of a nodoff.

when people go on and on about what Bloom has done with the farm, I would say what has he done? Anyone would have drafted Mayer. As for most of the rest-

AAAA at best. I know I know - he doesn't have the money! It is possible that he just can't get it done.

[Old Red]

My God - We now have two of them waxing prolifically in an attempt to baffle us with the ******** I think. I cannot read that much without a bit of a nodoff.

when people go on and on about what Bloom has done with the farm, I would say what has he done? Anyone would have drafted Mayer. As for most of the rest-

AAAA at best. I know I know - he doesn't have the money! It is possible that he just can't get it done.

 

Mayer was passed over 3 times, so Bloom had a pretty easy decision to make, because of it. The big question left is what Bloom would have done if Mayer hadn’t been there. It is quite possible that Bloom can’t get things done in Boston, which would be bad all the way around.

[dgalehouse]

Mayer was the reward for the disgusting 2020 fiasco. The top farm prospects , Bello , Casas and Rafaela were all Dombrowski finds.

[Hugh2]

Mayer was the reward for the disgusting 2020 fiasco. The top farm prospects , Bello , Casas and Rafaela were all Dombrowski finds.

 

I’d bet my sons life DD never even heard of Bello and Rafaela.

 

Now Casas? He gets full credit for that. People in his position always have their hands on the first pick. But after that it’s all underneath them.

 

Rafaela and Bello got less than 50k each. They were nobody’s, pleasant surprises from an international draft class.

[moonslav59]

My God - We now have two of them waxing prolifically in an attempt to baffle us with the ******** I think. I cannot read that much without a bit of a nodoff.

when people go on and on about what Bloom has done with the farm, I would say what has he done? Anyone would have drafted Mayer. As for most of the rest-

AAAA at best. I know I know - he doesn't have the money! It is possible that he just can't get it done.

 

It's all about results, right?

 

If you think Mayer is all Bloom has done to the farm, you've missed quite a bit.

 

The jury is still out on just how good Bloom's farm is and will be. Many of the incoming prospects were there before he got here. Nobody is saying he has built the farm up to greatness. It's all speculative. On paper, it appears he's done what he was asked to do, and quicker, stronger and faster than I thought possible under the tightened rules that penalize winning teams and big spending teams.

 

BTW, other prospects Bloom has added beyond Mayer:

 

Whitlock- quite an omission and not someone every GM would have taken. (BTW, 3 teams passed on Mayer, so your "anyone" terminology if off a bit.)

 

Bleis- may turn out to be the best since Devers or Betts & Bogey.

 

Yorke

 

Romero & Anthony (with Mayer, that's 5 in the top 10 after just 3 seasons)

, Wallace

Kelly & German

Wong

E Valdez & Abreu

Jordan

Hickey

Coffey

Kavadas

Rodrigues-Cruz

Ferguson & Rosier

D Hamilton, Binelas, Koss & RHern

 

and a few with fading hopes, if any, like Seabold, Downs & Ort.

 

Sure, many of these will not make it, but you seem like you think only Mayer is worth mentioning.

 

Is that any better than the strawman saying Bloom has done a great job building up the pen?

 

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

Mayer was the reward for the disgusting 2020 fiasco. The top farm prospects , Bello , Casas and Rafaela were all Dombrowski finds.

 

What happened to it being all about results?

 

Fact: from the Devers call up (not a DD prospect) to the Bello/Casas call up at the end of 2022, the only significant call-up in 5 years was Houck. Is that what you call winning? Is DD to be "held accountable good or bad," as you called for GMs to be?

 

I suppose you could argue Bloom could have traded away Bello, Casas, Rafaela and Mayer for a win now push, but I don't think upper management would have allowed it, even if he wanted to. Of course, DD would have wanted to, and perhaps that is why they parted ways.

 

[moonslav59]

Somehow, Bloom's prospects are already supposed to be proving themselves, while all we've seen from DD's farm is Dalbec, Duran and Houck, and by the way...

 

Houck was drafted in 2018

Dalbec was drafted in 2017

Duran was drafted in 2017

 

Bellos was signed (IFA) in July 2017

Casas was drafted in 2018

Crawford 2017

 

It's 3-4 years after those DD additions and it will be 8 years in April, since he became the GM and we've barely seen any results, except Houck.

 

Bloom has been here 3 years, and we are hearing complaints that Mayer is all he's gotten us.

 

Before you go saying I'm all upset, I'm actually laughing my ass off.

 

DD 8 years: Houck, Dalbec, Duran, Crawford and a few very promising prospects just breaking through.

 

Bloom 3 years: Whitlock, Wink, Wong, Seabold, Downs and our #1 (Mayer), #3 Bleis, #5 Yorke, #7 Romero, #10 Anthony and other top 22's Valdez, Jordan, Hickey, Kavadas, Coffey and recent 40 man add-ons Kelly, German, Abreu and Hamilton, too.

 

Let's wait 8 years on Bloom's farm to compare him to DD's farm, right?

[Hugh2]

What happened to it being all about results?

 

 

 

Fact: from the Devers call up (not a DD prospect) to the Bello/Casas call up at the end of 2022, the only significant call-up in 5 years was Houck. Is that what you call winning? Is DD to be "held accountable good or bad," as you called for GMs to be?

 

I suppose you could argue Bloom could have traded away Bello, Casas, Rafaela and Mayer for a win now push, but I don't think upper management would have allowed it, even if he wanted to. Of course, DD would have wanted to, and perhaps that is why they parted ways.

 

 

Remember when Dave got credit for not trading the right guys? I suppose that was only for Dave.

 

Also, Blooms first year here the draft went from 40 to 4 rounds.

 

Regardless it’s too early to Judge blooms drafts, but early returns are looking good.

[Hugh2]

After the first pick GMs have almost no influence or say in prospects. Let’s just keep this in mind.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The Irony of it All:

...just saw an article on the White Sox signing Mike Clevinger. Here's the first comment posted at the bottom of the page:

 

"Sox shopping at the thrift store again."

[moonslav59]

Remember when Dave got credit for not trading the right guys? I suppose that was only for Dave.

 

Also, Blooms first year here the draft went from 40 to 4 rounds.

 

Regardless it’s too early to Judge blooms drafts, but early returns are looking good.

 

I've actually been giving DD props for obtaining better prospects than I gave him credit for a few years back, but I can't stop thinking about that 5 year period from the Devers call up (not DD's prospect) and the Bello/Casas call ups where the most notable call-ups were Dalbec, Duran and Houck.

 

That, alone, is enough context to add to Bloom's tenure as the Sox GM to give him 3 get out of jail free cards.

 

What GM can build a championship team around 5 years and just one prospect like Houck?

 

We can poo poo how badly many of the prospects DD traded away have done, but he was the man in charge, and it's all about "results," right?

 

5 years: Houck. That's the results DD left Bloom, until late 2022. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about many of his prospects, including Bello & Casas who will be playing for us, next year, but geeesh! 5 YEARS and HOUCK! OMG!

[moonslav59]

After the first pick GMs have almost no influence or say in prospects. Let’s just keep this in mind.

 

You don't think several names are being bandied about on the second and later rounds? Someone makes the final call.

 

I'm sure, many times, there is a general consensus, but maybe the GM plays a bigger role than we know.

 

Ultimately, they are basing their opinions on what the scouts and talent evaluators are saying, so I'm not saying you are wrong.

[moonslav59]

The Irony of it All:

...just saw an article on the White Sox signing Mike Clevinger. Here's the first comment posted at the bottom of the page:

 

"Sox shopping at the thrift store again."

 

$8M seems about right for him. He'd be a good 4th SP'er or an okay 3rd starter, but we have enough of those.

[Hugh2]

You don't think several names are being bandied about on the second and later rounds? Someone makes the final call.

 

I'm sure, many times, there is a general consensus, but maybe the GM plays a bigger role than we know.

 

Ultimately, they are basing their opinions on what the scouts and talent evaluators are saying, so I'm not saying you are wrong.

 

No.

[Hugh2]

You don't think several names are being bandied about on the second and later rounds? Someone makes the final call.

 

I'm sure, many times, there is a general consensus, but maybe the GM plays a bigger role than we know.

 

Ultimately, they are basing their opinions on what the scouts and talent evaluators are saying, so I'm not saying you are wrong.

 

Paul Toboni is the director of amateur scouting.

[Bellhorn04]

I've actually been giving DD props for obtaining better prospects than I gave him credit for a few years back, but I can't stop thinking about that 5 year period from the Devers call up (not DD's prospect) and the Bello/Casas call ups where the most notable call-ups were Dalbec, Duran and Houck.

 

That, alone, is enough context to add to Bloom's tenure as the Sox GM to give him 3 get out of jail free cards.

 

What GM can build a championship team around 5 years and just one prospect like Houck?

 

We can poo poo how badly many of the prospects DD traded away have done, but he was the man in charge, and it's all about "results," right?

 

5 years: Houck. That's the results DD left Bloom, until late 2022. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about many of his prospects, including Bello & Casas who will be playing for us, next year, but geeesh! 5 YEARS and HOUCK! OMG!

 

Devers is the only unequivocally impactful prospect acquired by the Red Sox since the 2011 draft, in terms of major league production. After Devers you're talking about Margot and Benintendi. Moncada hasn't done much yet. Kopech and Houck and Bello have potential.

 

It's not much wonder we're in the situation we're in with that kind of track record.

[Hugh2]

Devers is the only unequivocally impactful prospect acquired by the Red Sox since the 2011 draft, in terms of major league production. After Devers you're talking about Margot and Benintendi. Moncada hasn't done much yet. Kopech and Houck and Bello have potential.

 

It's not much wonder we're in the situation we're in with that kind of track record.

 

This is a great point, drafting has not been great for over a decade. There seems to be promise from the last couple of classes, and Casas could be good, but a handful of players in a decade is not a good look.

 

Drafting hurts your team 4-8 years in the future, the bad drafting (as of right now) is on DD and Ben C.

 

Although, GMs rotate in and out on this team seemingly, while a lot of personal mid level has had longer tenures here. It’s so tough to complain, ideally you’d want to advocate for a change. But for all we know they’re doing a better job now but need to wait 1-3 years to taste that fruit.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

This is a great point, drafting has not been great for over a decade. There seems to be promise from the last couple of classes, and Casas could be good, but a handful of players in a decade is not a good look.

 

Drafting hurts your team 4-8 years in the future, the bad drafting (as of right now) is on DD and Ben C.

 

Although, GMs rotate in and out on this team seemingly, while a lot of personal mid level has had longer tenures here. It’s so tough to complain, ideally you’d want to advocate for a change. But for all we know they’re doing a better job now but need to wait 1-3 years to taste that fruit.

 

Boston never had many top 10 picks because they were usually a contender. Benintendi at #7 in 2015 was the Red Sox' best Top 10 pick since Trot Nixon went #7 in 1993. Nixon earned 21.2 WAR, surpassed by only one pick above him (ARod), though several other first rounders had better career WAR: Wagner, Derek Lee, Chris Carpenter, Tori Hunter and Varitek.

 

There were a lot of recognizable names in the '15 draft -- Swanson, Tucker, Buehler, Austin Riley -- but the only first rounder with higher WAR than Beni's 15.7 so far is Bregman.

 

We all have high hopes for Marcelo Mayer, but stardom is hardly guaranteed. The Red Sox may have missed by selecting Trey Ball #7 in 2013, but the picks immediately before and after him -- Colin Moran and Hunter Dozier -- are negative WAR below replacement players so far...

[mvp 78]

My God - We now have two of them waxing prolifically in an attempt to baffle us with the ******** I think. I cannot read that much without a bit of a nodoff.

when people go on and on about what Bloom has done with the farm, I would say what has he done? Anyone would have drafted Mayer. As for most of the rest-

AAAA at best. I know I know - he doesn't have the money! It is possible that he just can't get it done.

 

I think he's built up the lower part of the farm and provided depth (see all the starting pitchers that made appearances last year instead of retreads like Brad Peacock that we've seen in recent years). Has it been some amazing, unbelievable job? Not really. He's just stockpiling guys. The fruits of this labor won't be seen for another few years unfortunately. He'll need to keep the important club competitive in that time or lose his job.

[mvp 78]

Mayer was passed over 3 times, so Bloom had a pretty easy decision to make, because of it. The big question left is what Bloom would have done if Mayer hadn’t been there. It is quite possible that Bloom can’t get things done in Boston, which would be bad all the way around.

 

The guy BOS was linked to was: https://www.milb.com/player/jordan-lawlar-691783

[mvp 78]

Mayer was the reward for the disgusting 2020 fiasco. The top farm prospects , Bello , Casas and Rafaela were all Dombrowski finds.

 

Rafaela signed for 10k. Bello signed for 28k. I highly doubt he knew either guy before the ink on the contract was signed.

[mvp 78]

Devers is the only unequivocally impactful prospect acquired by the Red Sox since the 2011 draft, in terms of major league production. After Devers you're talking about Margot and Benintendi. Moncada hasn't done much yet. Kopech and Houck and Bello have potential.

 

It's not much wonder we're in the situation we're in with that kind of track record.

 

And it's kind of a wonder that Bloom did not bring in some new blood. The recent track record of the Sox org's talent evaluation isn't great!

[mvp 78]

Boston never had many top 10 picks because they were usually a contender. Benintendi at #7 in 2015 was the Red Sox' best Top 10 pick since Trot Nixon went #7 in 1993. Nixon earned 21.2 WAR, surpassed by only one pick above him (ARod), though several other first rounders had better career WAR: Wagner, Derek Lee, Chris Carpenter, Tori Hunter and Varitek.

 

There were a lot of recognizable names in the '15 draft -- Swanson, Tucker, Buehler, Austin Riley -- but the only first rounder with higher WAR than Beni's 15.7 so far is Bregman.

 

We all have high hopes for Marcelo Mayer, but stardom is hardly guaranteed. The Red Sox may have missed by selecting Trey Ball #7 in 2013, but the picks immediately before and after him -- Colin Moran and Hunter Dozier -- are negative WAR below replacement players so far...

 

Yankees continually have a pretty good system and they don't typically have early draft picks.

[moonslav59]

Devers is the only unequivocally impactful prospect acquired by the Red Sox since the 2011 draft, in terms of major league production. After Devers you're talking about Margot and Benintendi. Moncada hasn't done much yet. Kopech and Houck and Bello have potential.

 

It's not much wonder we're in the situation we're in with that kind of track record.

 

That 2011 draft did have some massive carry-over affect, but this is a great point. It really goes beyond the 2017 Devers call-up.

 

Theo once spoke about how the team got away from it's core principles and relied too much on free agent signings and mortgaging the future for the present, but what does he know. Sox radio talk show callers know better.