Fire Bloom .

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

very few have fairly workout

 

Well, the SOX did get 4 championships out of all that.

[moonslav59]

very few have fairly workout

 

Over $50M...

 

4 Good: Manny, JD, Beckett, Bogey

 

6 OK: AGon (thanks to the trade), Porcello, Lacky, JD Drew, Nate

 

1 Jury Out: Story

 

8 Bad:Price, Sale (jury out?), CC, Pedey, Dice-K, Pablito, HRam, Castillo

 

[Bellhorn04]

How much is 60 games from an all star really worth? The Sox most certainly got the best deal they could from a guy who had given every indication he was going to FA.

 

It wasn't the 60 games that hurt, it was the 12 year extension.

[jad]

From the mid 70's to the early 2000's, I often said to fellow Sox fans, "Ill take 10 last place finishes for just one ring!"

 

Now, I am spoiled.

 

Mid 70s? What about the 20 years of despair before that?

[moonslav59]

Mid 70s? What about the 20 years of despair before that?

 

I became a Sox fan in 1972 at age 13. The despair starting settling in in the mid 70's.

[notin]

Mid 70s? What about the 20 years of despair before that?

 

I will admit that I showed very little interest in any Sox season before my parents met…

[Bellhorn04]

I became a Sox fan in 1972 at age 13. The despair starting settling in in the mid 70's.

 

I was there, man. The first game I saw in Fenway was in September, 1974, right in the middle of one of their epic collapses.

 

That year they were 7 games up in the AL East on August 23, and ended up 7 back.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Maybe not getting as much for Betts from the Dodgers was the SOX way of thanking them for taking Crawful and A-gone.

And also Josh Beckett.

 

Does anyone remember who the 4th SOX player was who went to the Dodgers at that time?

[Bellhorn04]

Does anyone remember who the 4th SOX player was who went to the Dodgers at that time?

 

The reason some jokingly called it the Punto trade?

[moonslav59]

The reason some jokingly called it the Punto trade?

 

Well, CC was the 4th best player traded.

[iortiz]

Over $50M...

 

4 Good: Manny, JD, Beckett, Bogey

 

6 OK: AGon (thanks to the trade), Porcello, Lacky, JD Drew, Nate

 

1 Jury Out: Story

 

8 Bad:Price, Sale (jury out?), CC, Pedey, Dice-K, Pablito, HRam, Castillo

 

Porcello in my book is bad other than that I agree.

[moonslav59]

Porcello in my book is bad other than that I agree.

 

Remember, 2015 was not part of the contract.

 

The guy started 32-33 starts all 4 years and went 64-40 4.33 (105 ERA+) and 4.16 FIP/ 1.23 WHIP.

 

The team went 81-50 in his starts.

 

Lackey went 47-43 3.92 but an ERA+ of 94 with FIP 3.99 and WHIP 1.36 and missed a full season. Figuring inflation, the money was about the same.

 

Nate went 22-15 after the signing 4.23 (108 ERA+) 3.88 FIP and 1.28 WHIP, but only 82 GS'd. (Adjust for 2020 and it's still much lower than Porcello)

Edited September 1, 2022 by moonslav59

[iortiz]

Remember, 2015 was not part of the contract.

 

The guy started 32-33 starts all 4 years and went 64-40 4.33 (105 ERA+) and 4.16 FIP/ 1.23 WHIP.

 

The team went 81-50 in his starts.

 

Lackey went 47-43 3.92 but an ERA+ of 94 with FIP 3.99 and WHIP 1.36 and missed a full season. Figuring inflation, the money was about the same.

Still, he had 3 awful years, 1 mediocre and 1 great which was kind of a fluke. In my book that is a bad line.

[moonslav59]

Still, he had 3 awful years, 1 mediocre and 1 great which was kind of a fluke. In my book that is a bad line.

 

It was a 4 year contract. Throw out year 1.

 

Cy Young 1 year

17-7 4.28 another year.

His 11-17 year was actually better than his 14-12 year.

 

I'd say okay and better than the 4 years from Lackey & Nate.

[iortiz]

It was a 4 year contract. Throw out year 1.

 

Cy Young 1 year

17-7 4.28 another year.

His 11-17 year was actually better than his 14-12 year.

 

I'd say okay and better than the 4 years from Lackey & Nate.

 

 

Still 2 awful years, 1 mediocre (if not bad) and one great which was nothing but a fluke. It is still a bad tenure.

 

Then if you add his first year in Boston uniform, you just confirm he was awful here most of the years aside one. That's it.

[moonslav59]

Still 2 awful years, 1 mediocre (if not bad) and one great which was nothing but a fluke. It is still a bad tenure.

 

Then if you add his first year in Boston uniform, you just confirm he was awful here most of the years aside one. That's it.

 

Fluke or not: it counts.

[notin]

It was a 4 year contract. Throw out year 1.

 

Cy Young 1 year

17-7 4.28 another year.

His 11-17 year was actually better than his 14-12 year.

 

I'd say okay and better than the 4 years from Lackey & Nate.

 

Not to mention, in the era where 200IP is getting rare, Porcello threw 791 IP on a 4 year contract…

[notin]

Fluke or not: it counts.

 

It wasn’t even all that fluke when you look at how he was pitching by the end of the season before…

[moonslav59]

Not to mention, in the era where 200IP is getting rare, Porcello threw 791 IP on a 4 year contract…

 

All-in-all, 1 great 1 good, 2 decent- maybe less than decent. )THe first year was not part of the 4 year deal.)

 

Better than Nate & Lackey's 4 years, especially when counting innings.

[jad]

Maybe not getting as much for Betts from the Dodgers was the SOX way of thanking them for taking Crawful and A-gone.

And also Josh Beckett.

 

I don't understand the myth that AGon was a bust here. He hit exactly as expected and better than his average. So did JD Drew who also got a lot of heat. You can't blame players for playing up to their abilities when you are hoping (with no evidence) that they'll play better than that.

[moonslav59]

I don't understand the myth that AGon was a bust here. He hit exactly as expected and better than his average. So did JD Drew who also got a lot of heat. You can't blame players for playing up to their abilities when you are hoping (with no evidence) that they'll play better than that.

 

Yes, he only declined after the trade.

 

He should be in my "good" category for what he did while here, but had we not traded him, he'd have been firmly in the OK or bad categories for the amount of money he got paid (third highest deal in Sox history).

[Hugh2]

I never understood the hate for Agon. I know a lot of people had a problem with the comments he said about things "not being in gods plan" and that just never sat right with me. I'm probably the biggest atheist out there and I took no offense to that, growing up around religious people that's just how they think and process many events. It was in no way an indictment on his effort or desire to win, but rather a reflection on his beliefs, which even though I didn't share I respected.

 

J.D. Drew was another one that got way too much criticism, I think if I remember correctly people didn't like his personality. Not that he was a bad, rude or mean person but rather that he acted like he didn't care. I just saw him as a level-headed, calm down to earth guy. Adjusted for inflation today it would be like signing a guy to a 20 million-dollar-a-year contract. If we got that guy today and he hit a .825 OPS with plus defense in the right field we'd be pretty darn happy. He underperformed a little in his first/last year of the deal and it came to light he was dealing with some heavy family stuff off the field with his kid. But he played at an all-star level in 2008/2009.

[Bellhorn04]

I never understood the hate for Agon. I know a lot of people had a problem with the comments he said about things "not being in gods plan" and that just never sat right with me. I'm probably the biggest atheist out there and I took no offense to that, growing up around religious people that's just how they think and process many events. It was in no way an indictment on his effort or desire to win, but rather a reflection on his beliefs, which even though I didn't share I respected.

 

J.D. Drew was another one that got way too much criticism, I think if I remember correctly people didn't like his personality. Not that he was a bad, rude or mean person but rather that he acted like he didn't care. I just saw him as a level-headed, calm down to earth guy. Adjusted for inflation today it would be like signing a guy to a 20 million-dollar-a-year contract. If we got that guy today and he hit a .825 OPS with plus defense in the right field we'd be pretty darn happy. He underperformed a little in his first/last year of the deal and it came to light he was dealing with some heavy family stuff off the field with his kid. But he played at an all-star level in 2008/2009.

 

Fans are brutal, basically LOL

 

For some reason Story's first season with the Red Sox reminds me a little of Drew's first season with us. Of course Story won't get the chance to hit a postseason grand slam.

[moonslav59]

I never understood the hate for Agon. I know a lot of people had a problem with the comments he said about things "not being in gods plan" and that just never sat right with me. I'm probably the biggest atheist out there and I took no offense to that, growing up around religious people that's just how they think and process many events. It was in no way an indictment on his effort or desire to win, but rather a reflection on his beliefs, which even though I didn't share I respected.

 

J.D. Drew was another one that got way too much criticism, I think if I remember correctly people didn't like his personality. Not that he was a bad, rude or mean person but rather that he acted like he didn't care. I just saw him as a level-headed, calm down to earth guy. Adjusted for inflation today it would be like signing a guy to a 20 million-dollar-a-year contract. If we got that guy today and he hit a .825 OPS with plus defense in the right field we'd be pretty darn happy. He underperformed a little in his first/last year of the deal and it came to light he was dealing with some heavy family stuff off the field with his kid. But he played at an all-star level in 2008/2009.

 

I think people expected greatness from both. They got very good results, including top notch defense, which is often not recognized by the average fan.

 

I think there was also some implication with the cell phone and Beer Gate with AGon, but that did not bother me. The .957 to .812 OPS drop from year 1 to year 2, was also a factor. He ended up giving .793 with LAD, so the post mortem didn't help his cause.

 

JD's big rap was missing games with what appeared to be minor injuries, but I always liked him. Maybe expectations were too high after signing him at 31 years old, but he did have a .904 career OPS before BOS. To me, the .824 he gave us should have been expected or exceeding expectations, but the 606 games in 5 years was the major knock on him.

[iortiz]

All-in-all, 1 great 1 good, 2 decent- maybe less than decent. )THe first year was not part of the 4 year deal.)

 

Better than Nate & Lackey's 4 years, especially when counting innings.

LOL you bar is too low mate.

 

2016 4.92 (horrible)

2017 3.15 (very good)

2018 4.65 (horrible)

2019 4.28 (mediocre at best, bad in my book)

2020 5.52 (horrible)

 

2021 5.64 (horrible)

 

Porcello was a horrible pitcher with a fluke year in his prime.

[Hugh2]

Fans are brutal, basically LOL

 

For some reason Story's first season with the Red Sox reminds me a little of Drew's first season with us. Of course Story won't get the chance to hit a postseason grand slam.

 

That's actually a great comparison, Story hasn't been bad when healthy, just a little subpar from his career norms. I can see him having a phenomenal next 2-3 seasons here.

[Hugh2]

LOL you bar is too low mate.

 

2016 4.92 (horrible)

2017 3.15 (very good)

2018 4.65 (horrible)

2019 4.28 (mediocre at best, bad in my book)

2020 5.52 (horrible)

 

2021 5.64 (horrible)

 

Porcello was a horrible pitcher with a fluke year in his prime.

 

ERA for a starting pitcher alone is a horrible gauge. Also the average ERA is about 4.50 so calling a 4.65 "horrible" is a pretty big stretch. Even his 2016 season isn't that bad. 2020/2021 was pretty bad.

[iortiz]

Fluke or not: it counts.

 

Sure, it counts but it was a fluke when you look at his career. He never posted something close to that.

 

Geez it’s fair to say that most pitchers who win the CY are consistent and have several good to great years — ERAs around 3 and below.

 

Porcello had only one year around 3. One — 2106, 3.15.

[Hugh2]

An ERA lower than the league average by definition is good. If something is better than average then by definition it can't be bad. 2019 was a pretty good season too.

[moonslav59]

LOL you bar is too low mate.

 

2016 4.92 (horrible)

2017 3.15 (very good)

2018 4.65 (horrible)

2019 4.28 (mediocre at best, bad in my book)

2020 5.52 (horrible)

 

2021 5.64 (horrible)

 

Porcello was a horrible pitcher with a fluke year in his prime.

 

The subject is large and long contracts. 2016 was not part of the contract. You keep insisting on counting 2016 as part of the long term deal. If you want to count prior years, then the Sale deal looks ok, right? (WRONG!)

 

2017 was just "very good?"

 

Your bar is too high.

 

Out of the top 150 SP'ers in IP from 2017-2020, Porcello placed...

 

39th in fWAR (7.9 or about 2.0 per season)

10th in IP (Where is your bar, here?)

 

If you go by 1-30 is #1 starters and 31-60 is #2 starters, then Porcello rates to be a solid #2 SP'er in these two key areas.

 

To be fair, these are not #2 numbers, but rather #3 or 4.:

70th in SIERA Solid #3 SP'er

80th in FIP #3

94th in WHIP Solid #4

110 in ERA- #4

 

For $20M a year, it's not great, but it's not "horrible" or "bad."