Fire Bloom .

[Duran Is The Man]

Let's face it, the Sox front office has been insulting the crap out of us. Added nothing but Kluber, so nothing, to our razor-thin pitching rotation. Slid down to middle of the pack in payroll and left a wad of unspent money under the tax threshold, while raising ticket prices. Did jacksquat at the deadline again. Pretty incredible, really.

 

i couldn't agree more with every one of your posts today.

 

and as bad as everything is, unless Bloom is fired NOW, we're going to put up with this crap for another year.

[moonslav59]

I think the reeling is coming from above Cora's head. He's being made to look ridiculous by things like the Bear Claw game. Not really his fault our pitching has collapsed.

 

Like I think it was you who said, a while ago, no Sox pitcher has been overtaxed with innings pitched, so who is at fault for the pitching collapse, if blaming someone is the task at hand?

 

I agree on it not being Cora.

[moonslav59]

Let's face it, the Sox front office has been insulting the crap out of us. Added nothing but Kluber, so nothing, to our razor-thin pitching rotation. Slid down to middle of the pack in payroll and left a wad of unspent money under the tax threshold, while raising ticket prices. Did jacksquat at the deadline again. Pretty incredible, really.

 

Well said and in less words than I’d have been able to use!

 

[moonslav59]

i couldn't agree more with every one of your posts today.

 

and as bad as everything is, unless Bloom is fired NOW, we're going to put up with this crap for another year.

 

I’m not so sure it was Bloom who made the choice not to offer Eflin more money, but your point is well-taken.

 

We needed minimum 2 guys from a list like Nate, Eflin, Wacha and maybe Lugo. Kluber as a third guy might have made sense, at the time- even as the second guy would have been understandable.

 

I just can’t bring myself to believe it was Bloom’s choice to not leave a bunch of cash under the tax line on the table, and no, it’s not out of some sort of Bloom worship some here think I do.

 

Yes, Bllom can rightfully be blamed for spending on Kluber, Mondesi, Brasier, Kike and Barnes, instead of______. Have at it. I agree.

[Bellhorn04]

Like I think it was you who said, a while ago, no Sox pitcher has been overtaxed with innings pitched, so who is at fault for the pitching collapse, if blaming someone is the task at hand?

 

I agree on it not being Cora.

 

Pretty simple, I think, the primary fault is with Bloom for not adding one or two good starters to the 2023 rotation. Secondary fault to Henry for the tight budget, I guess.

[Bellhorn04]

Even though Wacha has gotten injured again and only pitched 107.1 innings, he'd still be leading Sox pitchers in fWAR...

 

So many ridiculous facts that can be pointed out about the 2023 rotation...

[FredLynn]

Let's face it, the Sox front office has been insulting the crap out of us. Added nothing but Kluber, so nothing, to our razor-thin pitching rotation. Slid down to middle of the pack in payroll and left a wad of unspent money under the tax threshold, while raising ticket prices. Did jacksquat at the deadline again. Pretty incredible, really.

 

What would have been the point of adding something to this years team? The amount of help they needed would have exacted an exorbitant price. Its not like adding a single very good SP would have saved the season. We needed two or three of them. IMO it was best not to add but instead to SELL for the future. In 2-3 years the team could be competitive again that way.

[Bellhorn04]

What would have been the point of adding something to this years team? The amount of help they needed would have exacted an exorbitant price. Its not like adding a single very good SP would have saved the season. We needed two or three of them. IMO it was best not to add but instead to SELL for the future. In 2-3 years the team could be competitive again that way.

 

They could have added two, that's the thing. They could have signed Senga instead of Yoshida. They could have signed Eflin instead of Kluber.

 

Bloom could have done a lot of things differently the last two years.

 

But now things are devolving into such a mess that we can say it didn't matter...it's almost like that's the way they wanted it.

[moonslav59]

Pretty simple, I think, the primary fault is with Bloom for not adding one or two good starters to the 2023 rotation. Secondary fault to Henry for the tight budget, I guess.

 

You have been spot on, all morning, and I don't disagree, here, but I do think the budget, especially if Bloom was told to stay $6-10M under the tax line, played a major role is what happened.

 

We needed to build up the pen, badly. Nobody disputes that. One could argue, we could have used one more Chris Martin, but I think Bloom did a fine job maximizing his return on investments made to the pen. Not signing Martin or Jansen, so we could add another SP'er would not have been a good choice.

 

We needed to replace some offense and fill the SS position, while also starring down the fact that our OF was one of the worst in MLB, last year and in my 50 years of being a Sox fan. He had to spend there. One could argue, he should have spent more on JT and Duvall. so we'd have them for more than just one year. It was a huge but winning roll of the dice to not spend on catching. (I recall some posters wanting us to go big an a FA catcher.) He spent pretty big on the OF with Yoshida and Duvall, and it could easily and rightfully be argued that the money spent on Yoshida (and Kike from the summer extension) to be spent on pitching. That looks to be on Bloom, but there was talk that the Sox system had been super high on Yoshida for years, so maybe signing him was more of a group choice than Bloom insisting on it. Still, he's the the guy making the choices, so that has to be a valid criticism. Bloom did not spend much on 1B/DH. The JT signing was masterful, except in length. The dice roll on Casas worked, too. The dice roll on Kike & Co. at SS was perhaps almost as big a blunder as neglecting the rotation.

 

The fact is, he spent on the pen, the OF, DH/1B and was mostly a success in those areas, as a whole. Robbing Peter to pay Paul was something most of us felt and still feel he should have done, and that's on him.

 

I'm not arguing Bloom having $6-10M more would have solved the rotation problem, but it could have helped. (Wacha cost less. Eflin or Nate over Kluber would fit, and so on...)

 

Bloom needed to do more for the rotation than he did, There is no sugar coating that. The 8-9 guys we had looked okay, but okay rotations rarely reach glory.

[Bellhorn04]

You have been spot on, all morning, and I don't disagree, here, but I do think the budget, especially if Bloom was told to stay $6-10M under the tax line, played a major role is what happened.

 

Yes, Henry deserves to be lambasted too, without a doubt.

[moonslav59]

Even though Wacha has gotten injured again and only pitched 107.1 innings, he'd still be leading Sox pitchers in fWAR...

 

So many ridiculous facts that can be pointed out about the 2023 rotation...

 

Eflin might have been enough, alone (instead of Kluber) to make us still be in his race, as we speak.

 

Getting Eflin and Wacha, instead of Kluber might have even been doable while keeping us under the tax line. (Non tendering Brasier could have made that a surety, assuming Eflin would have taken more money to come here.)

[moonslav59]

Yes, Henry deserves to be lambasted too, without a doubt.

 

Lambasted, yes, but I am still very far away from hoping we have an ownership change

 

Very much further away than wanting a manager and or GM change, too..

[Duran Is The Man]

I’m not so sure it was Bloom who made the choice not to offer Eflin more money, but your point is well-taken.

 

We needed minimum 2 guys from a list like Nate, Eflin, Wacha and maybe Lugo. Kluber as a third guy might have made sense, at the time- even as the second guy would have been understandable.

 

I just can’t bring myself to believe it was Bloom’s choice to not leave a bunch of cash under the tax line on the table, and no, it’s not out of some sort of Bloom worship some here think I do.

 

Yes, Bllom can rightfully be blamed for spending on Kluber, Mondesi, Brasier, Kike and Barnes, instead of______. Have at it. I agree.

 

if that's the case, then i wish JH would sell the team and pocket the billions his ego so desperately craves.

[FredLynn]

They could have added two, that's the thing. They could have signed Senga instead of Yoshida. They could have signed Eflin instead of Kluber.

 

Bloom could have done a lot of things differently the last two years.

 

But now things are devolving into such a mess that we can say it didn't matter...it's almost like that's the way they wanted it.

 

Obviously things should have been done differently before the season began. I was referring to standing pat at the deadline. I think we should have started the rebuilding process by being SELLERS at that time. Bloom has had two years now. Time for a change. And if Henry is going to keep the lid on spending he should think about selling the team.

[moonslav59]

if that's the case, then i wish JH would sell the team and pocket the billions his ego so desperately craves.

 

Without knowing who would buy the team from JH and what they would do on spending, I'd say, "Be careful what you wish for."

 

I happen to think JH spends in cycles and will, again, but this has been a long stretch and we have reached a spending ranking lower than we've seen in decades and decades. I'm concerned, too.

 

Honestly, though, I'd like you and others to answer this:

 

If you had to guess who is responsible for not spending right up to the tax line to improve our chances in 2023, who would you say it is?

 

Bloom?

 

JH and the leadership group?

 

I just can't imagine a GM being given $6-10M or whatever it is to spend and choosing not to use it. Am I in the minority on this?

[Bellhorn04]

Lambasted, yes, but I am still very far away from hoping we have an ownership change

 

Very much further away than wanting a manager and or GM change, too..

 

I get that. 4 rings earns a lot of loyalty, and there's no guarantee the next owner will be better.

[moonslav59]

Obviously things should have been done differently before the season began. I was referring to standing pat at the deadline. I think we should have started the rebuilding process by being SELLERS at that time. Bloom has had two years now. Time for a change. And if Henry is going to keep the lid on spending he should think about selling the team.

 

The rebuilding started in 2019.

 

Selling at this past deadline, or the one before would have just been part of a process that began long before then.

 

BTW, your pessimism was well-founded.

[Bellhorn04]

Without knowing who would buy the team from JH and what they would do on spending, I'd say, "Be careful what you wish for."

 

I happen to think JH spends in cycles and will, again, but this has been a long stretch and we have reached a spending ranking lower than we've seen in decades and decades. I'm concerned, too.

 

Honestly, though, I'd like you and others to answer this:

 

If you had to guess who is responsible for not spending right up to the tax line to improve our chances in 2023, who would you say it is?

 

Bloom?

 

JH and the leadership group?

 

I just can't imagine a GM being given $6-10M or whatever it is to spend and choosing not to use it. Am I in the minority on this?

 

Nobody knows. There was a rumor that the ownership was disappointed by the deadline inactivity. Maybe Bloom had some possible deals in the works but ended up backing away from them.

[moonslav59]

I get that. 4 rings earns a lot of loyalty, and there's no guarantee the next owner will be better.

 

Perhaps the two most important thing an owner does to insure his team's success is to spend a lot and choose the right GMs and core decision making team.

 

JH has spent a to of money and has shown he has been willing to go above and beyond when it looks like one more piece is needed. There has been a long lull, now, but I don't think this is the "new JH."

 

I think every GM he and this leadership group has hired have been excellent choices for the needs of the team at the times of the hirings. (Yes, even choosing Bloom as a rebuild GM.)

 

I am far far away from calling for an ownership change, and not just out of fear of who might buy the team and what their outlook might be.

 

I do think the team we have now is improving- even if way too slowly for most of us to tolerate.

[Old Red]

Without knowing who would buy the team from JH and what they would do on spending, I'd say, "Be careful what you wish for."

 

I happen to think JH spends in cycles and will, again, but this has been a long stretch and we have reached a spending ranking lower than we've seen in decades and decades. I'm concerned, too.

 

Honestly, though, I'd like you and others to answer this:

 

If you had to guess who is responsible for not spending right up to the tax line to improve our chances in 2023, who would you say it is?

 

Bloom?

 

JH and the leadership group?

 

I just can't imagine a GM being given $6-10M or whatever it is to spend and choosing not to use it. Am I in the minority on this?

 

You keep saying JH spends in cycles, and will again, and I keep saying this is not the same JH who bought the Red Sox, or even the same JH of 10 years ago. Those days I believe are l long gone. He has a lot more outside adventures today than when he first game to Boston. He was a good owner, but not anymore. With some he doesn’t get a lifetime pass, because of the 4 championships.

[Bellhorn04]

The jury is out on Bloom as a team builder, big time. Yes, we have some nice prospects. Hardly any of them can pitch, though. That's why Keith Law is less enamored of our system than most. Maybe he's right.

[moonslav59]

Nobody knows. There was a rumor that the ownership was disappointed by the deadline inactivity. Maybe Bloom had some possible deals in the works but ended up backing away from them.

 

You mean not offering more to make deals happen as "backing away?"

 

I heard we kicked the tires on Verlander, so certainly there was interest in doing something very bold. Settling on just Urias and no pitching at all, does seem like a huge letdown to an ownership group that must have been discussing Verlander and his contract costs.

 

Maybe Bloom's timidity will be his downfall. I always thought he was mostly just following the priorities and guidelines set by those above him, namely build up the damn farm and foundation of young major leaguers on the 26. I think has done both of those to some extent. Maybe not enough, but I do think our young core looks pretty good, right now with a steady flow of incoming prospects looking all set.

 

[Old Red]

The jury is out on Bloom as a team builder, big time. Yes, we have some nice prospects. Hardly any of them can pitch, though. That's why Keith Law is less enamored of our system than most. Maybe he's right.

 

Or MLB pipeline, which only ranks the farm 16th.

[moonslav59]

You keep saying JH spends in cycles, and will again, and I keep saying this is not the same JH who bought the Red Sox, or even the same JH of 10 years ago. Those days I believe are l long gone. He has a lot more outside adventures today than when he first game to Boston. He was a good owner, but not anymore. With some he doesn’t get a lifetime pass, because of the 4 championships.

 

I said I "think" he will again. I've also repeatedly said "How soon is now?"

 

We went from the Sale and Bogey extensions in spring of 2019 (both less than 6 years guaranteed) to the spring of 2022 with no major contracts, at all. That's 3 long years, which was unprecedented in JH's tenure. Certainly a big sign "this is not the same JH," but then we've had 3 major contracts given out in less than 2 years, although one kicks in next year.

Story for 6 years- the first 6 or more year deal since Price.

Yoshida for 5 years.

Devers for 10 years at nearly 50% more money than Price's $210M/7 deal.

 

I think this is evidence enough to think he is starting to spend more and may "go for it," again.

 

To me, I might not call it a "lifetime pass," but if he remains our owner until the day I die, and we never win another ring or even seriously contend again, I will die happy he was our owner. I went over 30 years thinking I'd never see one ring. I got to the point, where I told people I'd take 10 last place finishes for just one ring, so that's the perspective I come from. I don't expect otehrs to s hae my perspective, and to each his own, but I am still thrilled he has been our owner. I'd rather have him than Steve Cohen or the old Steinbrenner.

 

I'm not going to predict "this is the year" JH decides to spend, again. I thought maybe last winter would/could be it. I think he waits until a window is set, then pounces, and maybe he hasn't thought that window has been set since pre-2018, but I still think that is his underlying philosophy on spending. He did not want to spend like Cohen to fill 5-6 slots to make us a top contender.

 

Does he feel like we are 2-3 big slot fills away from a ring in 2024? IDK. Maybe. Maybe he thinks the window starts in 2025. Maybe he stopped thinking about windows and you are right, he just wants to keep our spending between 12th and 18th and put together semi-contending teams until it's right to sell the team for an ungodly profit.

 

I don't know what his future plans are, and maybe wishful thinking is clouding my judgement, but I do have some evidence to show the upswing in spending may be at hand. The Devers extension kicks in in '24. He's in his peak prime, now. If ever there was a time for a "window" and a splurge in spending, it would be in 2024 or 2025. With Jansen and Martine udner contract for just one more year, I'm guessing it will be 2024.

 

Young players like Casas, Duran, Wong, Urias, Rafaela, Abreu, Bello, Crawford and others looking to maybe get even better, the foundation looks good enough to me to think we are 2-3 big additions away from being a top contender. I admit I am often overly optimistic, but I do try hard to stay realistic.

 

I respect your position, and you have evidence to back your position up, too- like the fact that we are falling in the spending rankings and have been for an unprecedented 4-5 years in a row.

[Randy Red Sox]

The jury is out on Bloom as a team builder, big time. Yes, we have some nice prospects. Hardly any of them can pitch, though. That's why Keith Law is less enamored of our system than most. Maybe he's right.

 

This is exactly what I have been saying all along. There is VERY LITTLE pitching talent in our system.

[moonslav59]

Or MLB pipeline, which only ranks the farm 16th.

 

Do you think it's 16th or somewhere between the highest ranking and 16th?

 

If you believe it is likely 10th to 12th, it's still a big improvement. If you think it is likely 3rd to 9th, Bloom has done a great job rebuilding the farm under enormously changed environments which penalize teams like the Sox. Of course, all prospects are "suspects" to some degree, but on paper, he seems to have done a pretty good job, at minimum.

 

We can start to judge the young players on the team that he had added, so far (maybe some are no longer all that young anymore,) but I think adding the context that most prospects, especially HS players drafted years ago, take 4-6 years to mature. With that in mind, this list does not look bad to me:

 

Verdugo

Pivetta

Whitlock

Schreiber

Winckowski

Refsnyder

Wong

Urias

McGuire

EValdez

Reyes

Abreu

 

Current Bloom ranked prospects:

1. Mayer

2. Anthony

3. Bleis

5. Teel

6. Yorke

9. Zanetello

10. Romero

11. Drohan

14. Joh Garcia

15. Cespedes (moving up)

16. Meidroth

18. Hickey

19. Jordan

+ G Gambrell & Monegro (moving up), DHam, E R-C, Anderson, Alcantara, I & C Coffey and several more promising prospects farther away, right now.

 

Maybe, I'm wearing pink glasses, but there are many "experts" who support the idea that are farm is much stronger. You seem to listen to experts who said the Yoshida signing was a gross overpay, or the Betts trade was an "F Grade" by everyone, but for some reason want to distrust them on this one- or believe the one service that ranks us the lowest.

 

BTW, the MLB site's ranking service has never been held up in high regard.

 

[cp176]

I said I "think" he will again. I've also repeatedly said "How soon is now?"

 

We went from the Sale and Bogey extensions in spring of 2019 (both less than 6 years guaranteed) to the spring of 2022 with no major contracts, at all. That's 3 long years, which was unprecedented in JH's tenure. Certainly a big sign "this is not the same JH," but then we've had 3 major contracts given out in less than 2 years, although one kicks in next year.

Story for 6 years- the first 6 or more year deal since Price.

Yoshida for 5 years.

Devers for 10 years at nearly 50% more money than Price's $210M/7 deal.

 

I think this is evidence enough to think he is starting to spend more and may "go for it," again.

 

To me, I might not call it a "lifetime pass," but if he remains our owner until the day I die, and we never win another ring or even seriously contend again, I will die happy he was our owner. I went over 30 years thinking I'd never see one ring. I got to the point, where I told people I'd take 10 last place finishes for just one ring, so that's the perspective I come from. I don't expect otehrs to s hae my perspective, and to each his own, but I am still thrilled he has been our owner. I'd rather have him than Steve Cohen or the old Steinbrenner.

 

I'm not going to predict "this is the year" JH decides to spend, again. I thought maybe last winter would/could be it. I think he waits until a window is set, then pounces, and maybe he hasn't thought that window has been set since pre-2018, but I still think that is his underlying philosophy on spending. He did not want to spend like Cohen to fill 5-6 slots to make us a top contender.

 

Does he feel like we are 2-3 big slot fills away from a ring in 2024? IDK. Maybe. Maybe he thinks the window starts in 2025. Maybe he stopped thinking about windows and you are right, he just wants to keep our spending between 12th and 18th and put together semi-contending teams until it's right to sell the team for an ungodly profit.

 

I don't know what his future plans are, and maybe wishful thinking is clouding my judgement, but I do have some evidence to show the upswing in spending may be at hand. The Devers extension kicks in in '24. He's in his peak prime, now. If ever there was a time for a "window" and a splurge in spending, it would be in 2024 or 2025. With Jansen and Martine udner contract for just one more year, I'm guessing it will be 2024.

 

Young players like Casas, Duran, Wong, Urias, Rafaela, Abreu, Bello, Crawford and others looking to maybe get even better, the foundation looks good enough to me to think we are 2-3 big additions away from being a top contender. I admit I am often overly optimistic, but I do try hard to stay realistic.

 

I respect your position, and you have evidence to back your position up, too- like the fact that we are falling in the spending rankings and have been for an unprecedented 4-5 years in a row.

 

Over and over again I have heard about badly it is for business to sign people of a certain age to anything that calls for any sort of long term contract. How it just won't be worth the expense in the long run. The be careful what you wish for part also goes the other way. You are definitely taking a chance signing a younger player long term before knowing what you have. I'm glad that we have Devers for sure but he is proving that playing third base likely isn't in his future. The money spent on both Story and Yoshida might be money that was poorly spent. Casas looks like the real deal in the batter's box but is he going to be able to field his position going forward? there isn't one blueprint required to build a team. Based on what I have seen my confidence level in bloom isn't very high.

[moonslav59]

This is exactly what I have been saying all along. There is VERY LITTLE pitching talent in our system.

 

I agree, but maybe the pendulum is swinging to the good.

 

In the last few years we've seen a major uptick in decent pitchers called up:

Bello

Houck

Whitlock

Crawford

Winckowski

 

Before it was Brian Johnson, Hnery Owens, Ranaudo and Shawryn types.

[Old Red]

Do you think it's 16th or somewhere between the highest ranking and 16th?

 

If you believe it is likely 10th to 12th, it's still a big improvement. If you think it is likely 3rd to 9th, Bloom has done a great job rebuilding the farm under enormously changed environments which penalize teams like the Sox. Of course, all prospects are "suspects" to some degree, but on paper, he seems to have done a pretty good job, at minimum.

 

We can start to judge the young players on the team that he had added, so far (maybe some are no longer all that young anymore,) but I think adding the context that most prospects, especially HS players drafted years ago, take 4-6 years to mature. With that in mind, this list does not look bad to me:

 

Verdugo

Pivetta

Whitlock

Schreiber

Winckowski

Refsnyder

Wong

Urias

McGuire

EValdez

Reyes

Abreu

 

Current Bloom ranked prospects:

1. Mayer

2. Anthony

3. Bleis

5. Teel

6. Yorke

9. Zanetello

10. Romero

11. Drohan

14. Joh Garcia

15. Cespedes (moving up)

16. Meidroth

18. Hickey

19. Jordan

+ G Gambrell & Monegro (moving up), DHam, E R-C, Anderson, Alcantara, I & C Coffey and several more promising prospects farther away, right now.

 

Maybe, I'm wearing pink glasses, but there are many "experts" who support the idea that are farm is much stronger. You seem to listen to experts who said the Yoshida signing was a gross overpay, or the Betts trade was an "F Grade" by everyone, but for some reason want to distrust them on this one- or believe the one service that ranks us the lowest.

 

BTW, the MLB site's ranking service has never been held up in high regard.

 

Improvements in the rankings doesn’t necessarily mean a trip to the WS, or even the postseason for that matter, which is the hope beyond hope on here.

[Bellhorn04]

Improvements in the rankings doesn’t necessarily mean a trip to the WS, or even the postseason for that matter, which is the hope beyond hope on here.

 

Yeah, the lists look good, the standings do not.