Fire Bloom .

[mvp 78]

Guerrero seemed like the closest above A ball who might prove immediately useful…

 

You're not holding out hope for Ryan Fernandez anymore?

 

Mata is going to put directly into the pen. Maybe he can get some control in shorter stints.

 

Liu should be moved into a relief role like Murphy/Winckowski.

 

We may see Wikelman moved in that bulk relief role too, unfortunately.

[Bellhorn04]

Technically, their record is above .500 and they are doing better. If your only goal is to look at the standings, you may end up miserable though. They are on pace for 83 wins which is much more than a lot of people on here guessed them for. Shouldn't they be happy?

 

Nobody should be happy with the 2022 or 2023 Red Sox. The 2023 team had some good moments, but the trend is not promising.

[moonslav59]

The FO definitely needs to start dealing some of the prospects sooner than later to actually help the MLB team. They need to pick the guys that will help the team and the guys they can move on from. They are just hoarding too much right now. We'll see what type of moves they make prior to the Rule 5 draft, but I don't know what to project for this group. They've made some really mysterious transactions the past few years.

 

Next year is Bloom's last contract year. I wouldn't be shocked if they let him go. I'd be shocked if they extended him. They shouldn't extend him IMO. He needs to earn it with a strong offseason and a playoff birth next season. Because we don't directly hear from John Henry, it's hard to really determine what the direction is that he sees for this club. All I've heard is that Werner wants to spend, Henry doesn't and they wish Bloom did more at the deadline.

 

I agree.

 

IMO, the punting has gone on long enough. We have not been at the point where some targeted big spending would have been enough to get us to glory. It feels like we are close, now. The play we got from Bello, Duran, Casas, Wink, Crawford and Wong was great, and getting four kids to all mature at the same time, in one season, is a fantastic thing, but the lack of hardly anything for 5 years before them has taken its toll- perhaps an insurmountable one for another year or two. Bloom's choice of mostly HS draftees over the year has delayed any idea of continuous farm infusions beyond the six I mentioned. We do have a lot of players that are very close to ML ready, but not many seem to be on the level of the top 3-4 on that list, except maybe Rafaela. I'm not sure we see Mayer until 2025.

 

Is JH & Co. really going to wait until 2025 and beyond? That goes well beyond the traditional 5 year plan talk.

 

Certainly, some mistakes and "mysterious moves" were made, especially as you pointed out with pitching, and I'll narrow it further to SP';ing. Of all the places to swing and miss, last winter, the rotation was the worst. The Kluber signing stung, badly. Our SS defense was a close second. The pen would have been fine, or even great, had we not had to raid it for the rotation injuries and demotions.

 

The Yoshida, Duvall, Jansen and Martin signings and gambles on Casas, Wong, Duran and others seemed to work, okay, but it wasn't enough to compensate for the weak rotation, poor defense and overly taxed pen.

 

I doubt throwing an extra $10-25M at the budget would have won us a ring, but I do think we were close enough where that might have inched us into the playoffs. The damn luxury tax fiasco from last year is at least partially responsible for that, although I wonder if JH would have spent more, regardless.

 

This winter will be very closely watched by Sox fans, and as always the vulture media types.

[notin]

The FO definitely needs to start dealing some of the prospects sooner than later to actually help the MLB team. They need to pick the guys that will help the team and the guys they can move on from. They are just hoarding too much right now. We'll see what type of moves they make prior to the Rule 5 draft, but I don't know what to project for this group. They've made some really mysterious transactions the past few years.

 

Next year is Bloom's last contract year. I wouldn't be shocked if they let him go. I'd be shocked if they extended him. They shouldn't extend him IMO. He needs to earn it with a strong offseason and a playoff birth next season. Because we don't directly hear from John Henry, it's hard to really determine what the direction is that he sees for this club. All I've heard is that Werner wants to spend, Henry doesn't and they wish Bloom did more at the deadline.

 

I’d be surprised, too.

 

As long as we don’t get another GM/CBO who immediately unloads the farm and bulks up the team with too many high-priced contracts that any chance of winning is short-lived and followed up with a prolonged period of extensive mediocrity with no hope except waiting for the contractual deadweight to expire…

[Dipre]

I agree.

 

IMO, the punting has gone on long enough. We have not been at the point where some targeted big spending would have been enough to get us to glory. It feels like we are close, now. The play we got from Bello, Duran, Casas, Wink, Crawford and Wong was great, and getting four kids to all mature at the same time, in one season, is a fantastic thing, but the lack of hardly anything for 5 years before them has taken its toll- perhaps an insurmountable one for another year or two. Bloom's choice of mostly HS draftees over the year has delayed any idea of continuous farm infusions beyond the six I mentioned. We do have a lot of players that are very close to ML ready, but not many seem to be on the level of the top 3-4 on that list, except maybe Rafaela. I'm not sure we see Mayer until 2025.

 

Is JH & Co. really going to wait until 2025 and beyond? That goes well beyond the traditional 5 year plan talk.

 

Certainly, some mistakes and "mysterious moves" were made, especially as you pointed out with pitching, and I'll narrow it further to SP';ing. Of all the places to swing and miss, last winter, the rotation was the worst. The Kluber signing stung, badly. Our SS defense was a close second. The pen would have been fine, or even great, had we not had to raid it for the rotation injuries and demotions.

 

The Yoshida, Duvall, Jansen and Martin signings and gambles on Casas, Wong, Duran and others seemed to work, okay, but it wasn't enough to compensate for the weak rotation, poor defense and overly taxed pen.

 

I doubt throwing an extra $10-25M at the budget would have won us a ring, but I do think we were close enough where that might have inched us into the playoffs. The damn luxury tax fiasco from last year is at least partially responsible for that, although I wonder if JH would have spent more, regardless.

 

This winter will be very closely watched by Sox fans, and as always the vulture media types.

 

I agree with both your takes.

[moonslav59]

Nobody should be happy with the 2022 or 2023 Red Sox. The 2023 team had some good moments, but the trend is not promising.

 

Far from happiness, no doubt, but to me, there has been a glimmer of hope added to the gloom & doom.

 

Despite the fact that our three top pitchers going into the season, Sale, Houck and Whitlock, combined for an ERA over 5.00, we still managed to be over .500 for most of the year. I know that's not what we wanted, but that is a good sign, if those guys, or 2 out of 3 of them, ever come around.

 

It's been fun watching the younger players mature before my eyes.To see so many do so was surprising and uplifting, to me.

 

Bello

Casas

Duran

Wong

Crawford

Winckowski

Murphy

and some brief glimpses of hopes from others.

 

Our core of young players has grown in numbers and quality:

23: Casas

24: Bello, Robertson

25 Winckowski, Murphy

26 Devers, Duran, Urias, Walter

27 Houck, Crawford, Whitlock, Wong, Verdugo

28 McGuire

29 Yoshida, Schreiber, Reyes

 

Other teams have more and or better younger players, but we are improving.

 

Not much else to be optimistic about, right now.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

No matter who they decide to let build next year's Red Sox, he or she better start with the basics.

Recruit fundamentally sound players for the positions they actually play -- if you need a centerfielder or shortstop or catcher who can actually catch and throw the damn baseball, then go get guys who are legitimate big league players at those spots.

 

NO MORE versatile utility types who the front office thinks can move to those positions because they played there once in college or high school or Legion or Little League.

 

If you need starting pitchers, go get one or two or three. NO MORE castoff DFAed relievers who the front office thinks can open (because they can't close).

 

I know, imagine we fans figuring out a better approach for the offseason. We must remember more baseball than the young analysts in the front office ever forgot...

[Dipre]

No matter who they decide to let build next year's Red Sox, he or she better start with the basics.

Recruit fundamentally sound players for the positions they actually play -- if you need a centerfielder or shortstop or catcher who can actually catch and throw the damn baseball, then go get guys who are legitimate big league players at those spots.

 

NO MORE versatile utility types who the front office thinks can move to those positions because they played there once in college or high school or Legion or Little League.

 

If you need starting pitchers, go get one or two or three. NO MORE castoff DFAed relievers who the front office thinks can open (because they can't close).

 

I know, imagine we fans figuring out a better approach for the offseason. We must remember more baseball than the young analysts in the front office ever forgot...

 

Every franchise in MLB does this with significant success. Almost every superstar hitter you see in the Majors right now (Mookie, Harper, Elly and Oneli De La Cruz, et al) being examples, was drafted as a MIF or catcher, and either moved to another position during their development, or kept at SS. So you're saying every team in MLB is wrong?

[cp176]

I’d be surprised, too.

 

As long as we don’t get another GM/CBO who immediately unloads the farm and bulks up the team with too many high-priced contracts that any chance of winning is short-lived and followed up with a prolonged period of extensive mediocrity with no hope except waiting for the contractual deadweight to expire…

 

lol

[notin]

You're not holding out hope for Ryan Fernandez anymore?

 

Mata is going to put directly into the pen. Maybe he can get some control in shorter stints.

 

Liu should be moved into a relief role like Murphy/Winckowski.

 

We may see Wikelman moved in that bulk relief role too, unfortunately.

 

I’m fairly meh in Fernandez.

 

But I would give him a chance over Lamet or Llovera again…

[moonslav59]

I’m fairly meh in Fernandez.

 

But I would give him a chance over Lamet or Llovera again…

 

I'd have called up Walter, and as you like to say, "He's on the 40, already."

[Bellhorn04]

I’d be surprised, too.

 

As long as we don’t get another GM/CBO who immediately unloads the farm and bulks up the team with too many high-priced contracts that any chance of winning is short-lived and followed up with a prolonged period of extensive mediocrity with no hope except waiting for the contractual deadweight to expire…

 

I understand a lot of the anti-DD sentiment, and yet...

 

-Which player that DD traded away do we miss?

-The 2021 team did fairly well. So are the failures of the 2022 and 2023 teams more on DD or Bloom?

[mvp 78]

Nobody should be happy with the 2022 or 2023 Red Sox. The 2023 team had some good moments, but the trend is not promising.

 

If someone predicted 70 wins or less, but they end up over .500, they should be happy.

[mvp 78]

This winter will be very closely watched by Sox fans, and as always the vulture media types.

 

We said how last offseason was a defining moment for Bloom too.

[notin]

I understand a lot of the anti-DD sentiment, and yet...

 

-Which player that DD traded away do we miss?

-The 2021 team did fairly well. So are the failures of the 2022 and 2023 teams more on DD or Bloom?

 

Any player who could handle MLB for minimum wage made it that much easier to retain the elite talent. This is not a difficult concept. Keeping Manny Margot might mean no money spent keeping a more expensive OF. Keeping Moncada might mean no need for Mitch Moreland.

 

The number of minimum wage rookies who played at all during that period is surprisingly low. In his 4 years, only like 9 position players saw as many as 10 plate appearances. And that number includes the aging non-prospect Bryce Brentz types…

[mvp 78]

I’m fairly meh in Fernandez.

 

But I would give him a chance over Lamet or Llovera again…

 

Yeah, I'd have thrown Fernandez in there this year by now. I think Bloom waived the white flag and is just throwing garbage arms out there.

 

The two bullpen games against TOR should have been the sign that the season was over.

 

If that was Bloom's plan all along, he should have sold Turner, Duvall, Verdugo and maybe Paxton.

[mvp 78]

I'd have called up Walter, and as you like to say, "He's on the 40, already."

 

There's enough garbage on the 40 that you could jettison and leave Walter down at AAA.

[mvp 78]

I understand a lot of the anti-DD sentiment, and yet...

 

-Which player that DD traded away do we miss?

-The 2021 team did fairly well. So are the failures of the 2022 and 2023 teams more on DD or Bloom?

 

DD signing Sale and Eovaldi is the reason Mookie isn't here anymore. That's the grudge I hold against him.

[Old Red]

My name is Chaim, and I’m a hobo too

I ain’t worth a piece of s***, but I’m the best that John Henry will do

John Henry used to care, and even went on Felger, and Mass

Now he might as well be out on his yacht tied up at Alcatraz.

[mvp 78]

My name is Chaim, and I’m a hobo too

I ain’t worth a piece of s***, but I’m the best that John Henry will do

John Henry used to care, and even went on Felger, and Mass

Now he might as well be out on his yacht tied up at Alcatraz.

 

It rhymes, but that flow is just terrible. Horrible mouth feeling.

[Old Red]

It rhymes, but that flow is just terrible. Horrible mouth feeling.

 

It goes with the material to work with. Bad feeling all the way around.

[Bellhorn04]

Any player who could handle MLB for minimum wage made it that much easier to retain the elite talent. This is not a difficult concept. Keeping Manny Margot might mean no money spent keeping a more expensive OF. Keeping Moncada might mean no need for Mitch Moreland.

 

The number of minimum wage rookies who played at all during that period is surprisingly low. In his 4 years, only like 9 position players saw as many as 10 plate appearances. And that number includes the aging non-prospect Bryce Brentz types…

 

Mitch Moreland? Yeah, if not for him we'd have been able to keep the elite talent. What a compelling case!

[Dipre]

Mitch Moreland? Yeah, if not for him we'd have been able to keep the elite talent. What a compelling case!

 

Not what he's saying at all Bell

[Bellhorn04]

DD signing Sale and Eovaldi is the reason Mookie isn't here anymore. That's the grudge I hold against him.

 

But it's not. Henry's reluctance is the reason.

[Bellhorn04]

Not what he's saying at all Bell

 

Well, he did bring up Moreland.

 

Someone needs to state the case much better...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Every franchise in MLB does this with significant success. Almost every superstar hitter you see in the Majors right now (Mookie, Harper, Elly and Oneli De La Cruz, et al) being examples, was drafted as a MIF or catcher, and either moved to another position during their development, or kept at SS. So you're saying every team in MLB is wrong?

 

No, I'm saying you didn't read my post about building "next year's Red Sox"... not next year's Drive or Seadogs or WooSox. I wasn't referring to drafts or farm development at all.

 

But as a fan of a mediocre major league club the past four years, I'd just like to see Boston's big league team fill any future holes with established MLB players who regularly play those positions.

 

Marwin's not a leftfielder, Arroyo's not a rightfielder, Schwarber's not a first baseman, and Franchy's not a big leaguer anywhere on defense. Some will also argue Kike's not a shortstop and Duvall isn't a centerfielder, because those aren't their best positions, either.

 

Bloom didn't invent square pegs in round holes. But in the past when we saw Hanley stumbling around in LF or Swihart getting injured and hurting his career out there, it seemed more outrageous. Now there are so many guys bumping into each other, misjudging plays and throwing to no one, fans are just inured... it's easier to just change the channel.

[notin]

DD signing Sale and Eovaldi is the reason Mookie isn't here anymore. That's the grudge I hold against him.

 

I add Price to that list.

 

After 2019, the Sox still had roughly $300mill committed to those three, no cheap talent coming up, and their star players all approaching free agency…

[Dipre]

No, I'm saying you didn't read my post about building "next year's Red Sox"... not next year's Drive or Seadogs or WooSox. I wasn't referring to drafts or farm development at all.

 

But as a fan of a mediocre major league club the past four years, I'd just like to see Boston's big league team fill any future holes with established MLB players who regularly play those positions.

 

Marwin's not a leftfielder, Arroyo's not a rightfielder, Schwarber's not a first baseman, and Franchy's not a big leaguer anywhere on defense. Some will also argue Kike's not a shortstop and Duvall isn't a centerfielder, because those aren't their best positions, either.

 

Bloom didn't invent square pegs in round holes. But in the past when we saw Hanley stumbling around in LF or Swihart getting injured and hurting his career out there, it seemed more outrageous. Now there are so many guys bumping into each other, misjudging plays and throwing to no one, fans are just inured... it's easier to just change the channel.

 

Dear Lord. Stop moving the goalposts

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Dear Lord. Stop moving the goalposts

 

I know. Football's the enemy.

[moonslav59]

We said how last offseason was a defining moment for Bloom too.

 

It should have been and to me, still was.

 

It looks like he will be back and maybe even extended.

 

I'll be watching the budget to see if the plan has changed.