Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

Both would help, but neither are any kind of difference maker.

 

Having Margot might have kept Bloom from trading for JBJ.

[mvp 78]

Having Margot might have kept Bloom from trading for JBJ.

 

Even if they had Margot, it doesn't get them +25 games in the standings and make the beat the Astros in the ALCS!

[moonslav59]

If the criteria is “better today than what we got at the time,” auspicious as that criterion is, then non-prospect Wade Miley “The Unpleasant One” fits. Since Carson Smith made no contribution beyond sitting on the Injured List in between tantrums.

 

I'll take Dubon back for Thornburg.

 

Can we trade Sale for Moncada and Kopech, now? (Yes, Sale helped us before by more than Moncada and Kopech will likely help the CWS, but if we are talking about now...)

 

Kimbrel is long gone, but can we have Margot back?

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

Even if they had Margot, it doesn't get them +25 games in the standings and make the beat the Astros in the ALCS!

 

Nope, but if we had margot and didn't do the JBJ trade, we'd have stayed under the tax line and been marginally better.

 

I get that nobody we traded is a stud, but it's not just about trading away much of the farm. DD left Bloom with very few ML ready or even near ML ready prospects, and Bloom gets the blame for not being able to build a winner out of Houck in a 5 year stretch along with a mess of a budget.

 

Again, I'm glad DD made the trades and we had a great 3 year run that ended with a magical season. That does not take make the consequences go away. It wasn't all DD's fault. He was handed a IFA penalty from the Ben days. He had low picks, because he won so damn much, but the fact is the farm he handed Bloom produced just Houck, Dalbec and Duran from Devers in 2017 to Bello in late 2022. That cannot be ignored or minimized. Sure, other factors have led to our situation, and not all are DD's fault, but the farm and budget were.

[Old Red]

Having Margot might have kept Bloom from trading for JBJ.

 

That may be true, but Margot probably would not have gotten all the chances to play that he got in San Diego at least for a few years anyway.

[moonslav59]

That may be true, but Margot probably would not have gotten all the chances to play that he got in San Diego at least for a few years anyway.

 

Probably not, but I didn't think this was about taking back the trades. I've already agreed the trades worked.

 

IMO, this was about would any of the players we traded away be helpful now, and also would their value, now maybe outweigh or end up outweighing the pluses we got from Sale, Kimbrel, Pomeranz, Thornburg, Carson Smith, Nate and Pearce. (maybe I missed someone.) The second part was answering your question:

 

What prospect did DD trade away that would have made a bigger difference today than who he was traded for at the time?

 

I'd say maybe, Dubon outweighs Thornburg.

 

Miley outweighs Smith.

 

Margot does NOT outweigh what Kimbrel gave us, but i'd like to have had him after 2019 to today.

 

Moncada and Kopech do not outweigh what Sale gave us, but they'd be helpful, now, which was my point about consequences of the trades.

Edited October 24, 2022 by moonslav59

[notin]

Having Margot might have kept Bloom from trading for JBJ.

 

Todays version of Anderson Espinoza is better than Drew Pomeranz was in 2018…

[Old Red]

Probably not, but I didn't think this was about taking back the trades. I've already agreed the trades worked.

 

IMO, this was about would any of the players we traded away be helpful now, and also would their value, now maybe outweigh or end up outweighing the pluses we got from Sale, Kimbrel, Pomeranz, Thornburg, Carson Smith, Nate and Pearce. (maybe I missed someone.) The second part was answering your question:

 

What prospect did DD trade away that would have made a bigger difference today than who he was traded for at the time?

 

I'd say maybe, Dubon outweighs Thornburg.

 

Miley outweighs Smith.

 

Margot does NOT outweigh what Kimbrel gave us, but i'd like to have had him after 2019 to today.

 

Moncada and Kopech do not outweigh what Sale gave us, but they'd be helpful, now, which was my point about consequences of the trades.

Since when does anything on here stick to the subject that was started, and people don’t go off in all different directions, and expand many times over?

[dgalehouse]

Dombrowski's record speaks for itself. He is a proven winner. He is able to see what needs to be done , and he does it. John Henry axed him ten months after he produced the winningest record in Red Sox history , ending with a World Series championship. This was a major blunder.

[dgalehouse]

Manuel Margot is just another ham and egger , with a career sub .700 OPS. He was traded seven years ago. Do you miss him ?

[Old Red]

Manuel Margot is just another ham and egger , with a career sub .700 OPS. He was traded seven years ago. Do you miss him ?

 

Some do.

[Old Red]

Dombrowski's record speaks for itself. He is a proven winner. He is able to see what needs to be done , and he does it. John Henry axed him ten months after he produced the winningest record in Red Sox history , ending with a World Series championship. This was a major blunder.

 

DD did make some blunders himself, but I agree, and Henry compounded things by hiring Bloom.

[notin]

Dombrowski's record speaks for itself. He is a proven winner. He is able to see what needs to be done , and he does it. John Henry axed him ten months after he produced the winningest record in Red Sox history , ending with a World Series championship. This was a major blunder.

 

He gets credit for 2018 and people are complimenting him on this thread, but whether or not it was a blunder remains nothing but speculation.

 

Another (probably important) factor is he was fired after the team got 24 games worse with basically the same extreme lofty payroll. Would the Sox be better off today with him? That is pure speculation. If he continues to do things he did with the Sox, it’s very easy to doubt they’d be better off…

[Old Red]

He gets credit for 2018 and people are complimenting him on this thread, but whether or not it was a blunder remains nothing but speculation.

 

Another (probably important) factor is he was fired after the team got 24 games worse with basically the same extreme lofty payroll. Would the Sox be better off today with him? That is pure speculation. If he continues to do things he did with the Sox, it’s very easy to doubt they’d be better off…

 

You are right again. All pure speculation on your part.

[moonslav59]

Since when does anything on here stick to the subject that was started, and people don’t go off in all different directions, and expand many times over?

 

I'm fine with the subject changing, and appreciate your question raised. It was a good one.

 

I tried to answer it and add more to it than just the specific point you raised- is their value now worth more than what we got from the guys we obtained.

 

I agreed the trades were good, so I'm not wanting do-overs or bashing the trades as bad, except maybe Carson Smith and Thornburg.

 

My point was those good to great trades had great consequences from 2016-2018, but now we are suffering from the after effects of those trades. The team control years have long since expired on everyone. The Sale extension should not count against the trades.

 

My added point was that we'd be, at least a little bit better with Kopech, Moncada, Margot, Espinal, Dubon and maybe someone I'm forgetting (Beeks?)

 

I would not take back the trades, but I'm also not going to ignore the long term consequences, either- not that you are, but I get a sense you are minimizing it or not seeing it sas being as important as I think it is, which is fine.

[dgalehouse]

He gets credit for 2018 and people are complimenting him on this thread, but whether or not it was a blunder remains nothing but speculation.

 

Another (probably important) factor is he was fired after the team got 24 games worse with basically the same extreme lofty payroll. Would the Sox be better off today with him? That is pure speculation. If he continues to do things he did with the Sox, it’s very easy to doubt they’d be better off…

 

I think Dombrowski got a little complacent and careless after the success of 2018 . The off season did not go well and the results showed in 2019. Still , the Sox went 84-78 for third place. This season they went 78-84 for fifth place.

[moonslav59]

Manuel Margot is just another ham and egger , with a career sub .700 OPS. He was traded seven years ago. Do you miss him ?

 

I'd rather have had him than Cordero, Duran & JBJ, this year, Ref, next year and Marwin in 2021. Nobody is saying he'd have led us to a playoff berth.

 

2016-2022 Top UZR/150 (98 OF'er with 3,000 innings- 3 per 30 teams)

 

1. Betts 16.6

12. JBJ 7.2

18. Pillar 5.1

20. Margot 5.0 (He's about top 20%)

 

DRS

1. Betts 127

9. JBJ 56

15. Margot 43

 

He'd have been a cheaper and better hitting JBJ in 2022.

Edited October 24, 2022 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

I think Dombrowski got a little complacent and careless after the success of 2018 . The off season did not go well and the results showed in 2019. Still , the Sox went 84-78 for third place. This season they went 78-84 for fifth place.

 

His whole record speaks for itself, yes, even the fact that the only significant prospects, Houck, came up from HIS farm from mid 2017 to the end of 2022.

 

Look at how many prospects have come up from the Astros farm since mid 2017. Too many to count.

[Old Red]

I'm fine with the subject changing, and appreciate your question raised. It was a good one.

 

I tried to answer it and add more to it than just the specific point you raised- is their value now worth more than what we got from the guys we obtained.

 

I agreed the trades were good, so I'm not wanting do-overs or bashing the trades as bad, except maybe Carson Smith and Thornburg.

 

My point was those good to great trades had great consequences from 2016-2018, but now we are suffering from the after effects of those trades. The team control years have long since expired on everyone. The Sale extension should not count against the trades.

 

My added point was that we'd be, at least a little bit better with Kopech, Moncada, Margot, Espinal, Dubon and maybe someone I'm forgetting (Beeks?)

 

I would not take back the trades, but I'm also not going to ignore the long term consequences, either- not that you are, but I get a sense you are minimizing it or not seeing it sas being as important as I think it is, which is fine.

I do agree mostly, but if none the prospects you mentioned hadn’t gotten traded how many do you think would have made it with the Red Sox, and still been here? Speaking of prospects how did the Red Sox let Houston’s starting SS get out of their backyard from the U OF Maine?

[notin]

I got the point, but I just don’t agree to the degree that you do. I don’t agree to the degree that you do that the Sox are like they are today, or have been after the 2018 season like you do, because of DD. To me this past season had more to do with injuries, and lack of production from certain players than how DD left the team. I do agree that the farm has not been that productive, but just not as a main reason for the lack of success.

 

The point is that 2020, 2021 and 2022 were paying the piper for 2016 through 2019. If you enjoyed those years, this is the inevitable fallout. And it giant even Mayer if the prospects panned out elsewhere or not. Folks on this site were railing about the “cliff” for years, and the Cliff Deniers kept denying even as the team went over the precipice and for the entire way down.

 

And only in 2022 did we see the potential end. Players like Casas and Bello, buried in the low minors, finally emerged and gave some hope that the Sox would have at least some minimum wage talent to offset the high-priced talent.

 

If you enjoyed 2026-2019, great. But know this is the fallout. And repeatedly saying “ Bloom’s had 3 years” is burying your head in the said. Epstein took longer to clean up the Cubs mess. The Sox had numerous years of Sale and Price absorbing roughly one quarter of the payroll - each had 3 years at least. Sale’s 5 year contract isn’t going to go away in 3 years. And no way was out getting moved, because $145million dollar Tommy John patients just aren’t in demand.

 

And if you really think Bloom should have moved him, look what it took to unload half of Price…

[moonslav59]

I do agree mostly, but if none the prospects you mentioned hadn’t gotten traded how many do you think would have made it with the Red Sox, and still been here?

 

It's hard to know. Certainly other deals would have been made with any GM. Other signings based on a different make-up of who was in our system.

 

I'd say...

 

Moncada would have made the team- most likely as a starter at 2B. We did end up having to trade for Kinsler in 2018.

 

Kopech has been good enough to keep on the 40 and does have a 3.53 ERA in 189 IP from 2021-2022. Do you not think that is good enough to make our rotation of '21-'22?

 

Beeks (2 months of Nate) has a 3.85 ERA w TBR in 4 seasons (229 IP as RP'er)

 

Margot has been a very good defensive OF'er and would have started a few years. His .consistent .695 OPS is better than JBJ's yo-yo .661 OPS since 2018.

 

Buttrey (for Kinsler) had 2 pretty good years with LAA before imploding. (3.86 ERA in 89 IP '18-'19)

 

The jury may still be out on Espinoza, Shaun Anderson, Gregory Santos, Stephen Nogosek

 

Dubon is a decent defensive sub but no difference maker. Espinal- kinda the same.

 

While Miley was no prospect, he did have 2-3 damn good seasons after we traded him away. 2018 for NYM (2.57 in 16 starts), 2019 for HOU (3.98 in 33 starts) and 3.33 for CIN & CHC from '21 to '22 in 36 GS. I think we'd have found room for him, those years but not in 2016 (5.37 in 30) and 2017 (5.61 in 32). He missed most of 2020.

 

Travis Shaw (part of the Thorburg trade) had 2 very nice seasons with MIL '18-'19

.258 63 187 in 1193 PAs (.844 OPS)

 

Again, I'm fine with what DD did, but there is no need to rewrite history by saying nobody he traded away amounted to anything of value or would be of little or no value, now.

 

[dgalehouse]

The idea that Bloom had no choice but to trade Mookie has never been proven. They should have tried harder. They probably could have matched the Dodgers' offer with what they are paying guys like Story and Barnes. Too late now. At least it is still not too late to sign Bogaerts and Devers . Other than that , spend on overhauling and improving the bullpen . That is where games are being lost.

[notin]

The idea that Bloom had no choice but to trade Mookie has never been proven. They should have tried harder. They probably could have matched the Dodgers' offer with what they are paying guys like Story and Barnes. Too late now. At least it is still not too late to sign Bogaerts and Devers . Other than that , spend on overhauling and improving the bullpen . That is where games are being lost.

 

So the $140mill the paid Story plus the $16mill they paid Barnes is equal to the $360mill it took to sign Mookie? Hmmm. Math issue for me.

 

Dombrowski himself was not able to sign him. Reportedly he offered $300mil over 10 years. He could have tacked on $60mill more? Maybe just not extended Sale?

 

Why did DD stop at $300mill? He was right there with the same AAV!

 

If Dombrowski couldn’t go high enough, why do you think Bloom could?

[Bellhorn04]

Neither Dombrowski nor Bloom are responsible for Mookie leaving. That was an obvious ownership call.

 

Just as Judge will be an ownership call for the Yankees.

[moonslav59]

The point is that 2020, 2021 and 2022 were paying the piper for 2016 through 2019. If you enjoyed those years, this is the inevitable fallout. And it giant even Mayer if the prospects panned out elsewhere or not. Folks on this site were railing about the “cliff” for years, and the Cliff Deniers kept denying even as the team went over the precipice and for the entire way down.

 

And only in 2022 did we see the potential end. Players like Casas and Bello, buried in the low minors, finally emerged and gave some hope that the Sox would have at least some minimum wage talent to offset the high-priced talent.

 

If you enjoyed 2026-2019, great. But know this is the fallout. And repeatedly saying “ Bloom’s had 3 years” is burying your head in the said. Epstein took longer to clean up the Cubs mess. The Sox had numerous years of Sale and Price absorbing roughly one quarter of the payroll - each had 3 years at least. Sale’s 5 year contract isn’t going to go away in 3 years. And no way was out getting moved, because $145million dollar Tommy John patients just aren’t in demand.

 

And if you really think Bloom should have moved him, look what it took to unload half of Price…

 

Well said. The two biggest areas a GM can make a difference, especially when trying to rebuild is with the farm and by using new money (or the winter spending budget) to add talent. Trades entail giving something up to get something. They can help but usually are about break even actions.

 

Between Devers and Bello/Casas, we saw Houck, Dalbec and Duran That's about it.

 

On the budget, we traded Betts and Price and not only did not replace their 2020 dollar amount, we cut further. We also did not replace Porcello's money. We had added about $40M AAV to spend for 2021 but it was still in deficit from 2019. This past winter, we looked to be spending close to $40M AAV, again, until the mid March Story signing.

 

It baffles my mind that some can see these facts and still think a GM should have been able to produce a ring-contending team, by now.

 

I admit, 2021 fooled me into thinking maybe miracles can come true, but the reality is, this rebuild should always have been viewed as a 3-5 year task. You can count 2019 as year one, but no real rebuilding happened, so I'm going with mid 2020, when Bloom made some deadline deals. That was about 2 1/2 seasons ago.

 

I'm thrilled to see Casas and Bello looking so promising and a list of 10-12 prospects who could or should be ready to be called up in 2023 or who were already called up in 2022. I'm not expecting Fred Lynn rookie seasons, but I'm liking the trend I see going forward.

 

Bello- just became a graduated prospect

 

2. Casas- starting 1Bman?

4. Rafaela (late '23)

6. Mata (mid '23)

8. Walter (mid)

11. Wong- back-up catcher?

12. Murphy (mid)

14. EValdez (mid)

23. Seabold- long relief?

24. Downs (mid)

27. German (mid)

29. Kelly

32, RHern (mid?)

36. Bazardo

 

If you count Bello, we're looking at 9 of our top 15 prospects looking for ML time in 2023

 

15 of out top 37, too.

 

(Crawford, Wink & Duran also graduated in 2022.)

 

I'm optimistic about our future. The next 2 years should tell us a lot.

[dgalehouse]

So the $140mill the paid Story plus the $16mill they paid Barnes is equal to the $360mill it took to sign Mookie? Hmmm. Math issue for me.

 

Dombrowski himself was not able to sign him. Reportedly he offered $300mil over 10 years. He could have tacked on $60mill more? Maybe just not extended Sale?

 

Why did DD stop at $300mill? He was right there with the same AAV!

 

If Dombrowski couldn’t go high enough, why do you think Bloom could?

 

Look at is this way . Nine mil a year for Barnes and twenty three mil a year for Story. 32 mil a year. None of them are getting paid in one lump sum for the whole contract. Dombrowski was fired before he could negotiate any further. If the whole thing is on John Henry , then John Henry should stand up and say so.

[moonslav59]

So the $140mill the paid Story plus the $16mill they paid Barnes is equal to the $360mill it took to sign Mookie? Hmmm. Math issue for me.

 

Dombrowski himself was not able to sign him. Reportedly he offered $300mil over 10 years. He could have tacked on $60mill more? Maybe just not extended Sale?

 

Why did DD stop at $300mill? He was right there with the same AAV!

 

If Dombrowski couldn’t go high enough, why do you think Bloom could?

 

Last would could be "should."

 

Also, no Mookie trade- no Price savings either.

[dgalehouse]

In the end , results are what matters. Try cashing a losing ticket at the track by explaining why it is your horse lost. It doesn't work.

[moonslav59]

In the end , results are what matters. Try cashing a losing ticket at the track by explaining why it is your horse lost. It doesn't work.

 

Baseball is not horse racing or a lottery ticket.

 

It's complex, and oversimplifying everything to wins and losses is a very narrow view.

 

Could DD have won a ring with the Sox with massive budget cuts to the 2019 team and just $40M to spend in 2020 and 2021 and just Houck as help from the farm?

 

You know that answer, but you cling to W-L records as all there is to a GM's report card.

[notin]

Last would could be "should."

 

Also, no Mookie trade- no Price savings either.

 

 

I went with “could” because If Dombrowski wasn’t allowed to go higher - and he reportedly went pretty high - do people think Bloom was allowed to?