2022 Bullpen Thread

[notin]

That's how horrible he believes Xander is in 2022.

 

No I just think Nomar’s legacy is unfairly tainted…

[Old Red]

No I just think Nomar’s legacy is unfairly tainted…

 

Or on the other hand was fairly painted.

[notin]

Or on the other hand was fairly painted.

 

Right. Thanks for telling me what he was like in the dugout…

[notin]

So you're ok with former MLB stars lobbing blocks of ice at people now?

 

How else are they going to combat Lou Gehrig’s disease?

[mvp 78]

No I just think Nomar’s legacy is unfairly tainted…

 

Prior to Mookie Betts, he was the greatest every day Red Sox player I've seen. His 4 year stretch from 97-00 could be in the conversation for the best stretch of any red sox player since Yaz (67-70). He was a beloved player who could handle an up the middle position. He was the face of the franchise through 2003. For better or worse, the worm turned in 2004. Nomar got his ring, but wasn't around for the celebration. I don't think you can talk about his legacy and ignore led to him leaving Boston. It's the same for Fisk, Boggs, Clemens, Betts...

[Old Red]

Prior to Mookie Betts, he was the greatest every day Red Sox player I've seen. His 4 year stretch from 97-00 could be in the conversation for the best stretch of any red sox player since Yaz (67-70). He was a beloved player who could handle an up the middle position. He was the face of the franchise through 2003. For better or worse, the worm turned in 2004. Nomar got his ring, but wasn't around for the celebration. I don't think you can talk about his legacy and ignore led to him leaving Boston. It's the same for Fisk, Boggs, Clemens, Betts...

 

Agree with most, but Rice had quite a stretch at the end of the 70’s. He didn’t play great D, but his bat more than matched Mookie, or Nomar.

[Maxbialystock]

Prior to Mookie Betts, he was the greatest every day Red Sox player I've seen. His 4 year stretch from 97-00 could be in the conversation for the best stretch of any red sox player since Yaz (67-70). He was a beloved player who could handle an up the middle position. He was the face of the franchise through 2003. For better or worse, the worm turned in 2004. Nomar got his ring, but wasn't around for the celebration. I don't think you can talk about his legacy and ignore led to him leaving Boston. It's the same for Fisk, Boggs, Clemens, Betts...

 

His WAR's for those 4 years were 6.6, 7.1, 6.6, and 7.4. Mookie Bett's were 6.1, 9.5, 6.4, 10.7, and 7.3 from 2015 thru 2019.

[mvp 78]

His WAR's for those 4 years were 6.6, 7.1, 6.6, and 7.4. Mookie Bett's were 6.1, 9.5, 6.4, 10.7, and 7.3 from 2015 thru 2019.

 

That's why I said "prior to Mookie." Mookie was better for sure. Nomar's peak was the best for any Sox player between Yaz prime and Mookie prime.

[moonslav59]

Prior to Mookie Betts, he was the greatest every day Red Sox player I've seen. His 4 year stretch from 97-00 could be in the conversation for the best stretch of any red sox player since Yaz (67-70). He was a beloved player who could handle an up the middle position. He was the face of the franchise through 2003. For better or worse, the worm turned in 2004. Nomar got his ring, but wasn't around for the celebration. I don't think you can talk about his legacy and ignore led to him leaving Boston. It's the same for Fisk, Boggs, Clemens, Betts...

 

Boggs was better than Nomar, and IMO, it's not even close.

 

bWAR

7.8 '83

6.3 '84

9.1 '85

8.1 '86

8.3 '87

8.3 '88

8.4 '89

 

fWAR

7.7

6.0

8.8

7.7

8.9

8.7

8.3

 

[mvp 78]

Nobody look up Wade Boggs from 83-89. It totally doesn't diminish my argument about Nomar.

[mvp 78]

When you're a second too late on posting...

[mvp 78]

Wade Boggs prior to Margo Adams scandal breaking:

 

51.7 fWAR, 7.4 average fWAR per season.

 

Wade Boggs post Margo Adams scandal breaking:

 

36.6 fWAR, 3.3 average fWAR per season.

[moonslav59]

Nobody look up Wade Boggs from 83-89. It totally doesn't diminish my argument about Nomar.

 

It only diminishes the statement that he was the bests from Yaz to Betts, but yes, second best 4 year stretch is still great!

 

He even wasn't a horrible fielder, early on.

[moonslav59]

Wade Boggs prior to Margo Adams scandal breaking:

 

51.7 fWAR, 7.4 average fWAR per season.

 

Wade Boggs post Margo Adams scandal breaking:

 

36.6 fWAR, 3.3 average fWAR per season.

 

You don't think turning 32 had anything to do with it?

[mvp 78]

You don't think turning 32 had anything to do with it?

 

No.

[notin]

No.

 

So then you’re condoning adultery as long as it bolsters fWAR?

[notin]

Boggs was better than Nomar, and IMO, it's not even close.

 

bWAR

7.8 '83

6.3 '84

9.1 '85

8.1 '86

8.3 '87

8.3 '88

8.4 '89

 

fWAR

7.7

6.0

8.8

7.7

8.9

8.7

8.3

 

 

Boggs is in Cooperstown. Nomar isn’t. This is old news…

[notin]

It only diminishes the statement that he was the bests from Yaz to Betts, but yes, second best 4 year stretch is still great!

 

He even wasn't a horrible fielder, early on.

 

 

I just don’t like the “he was sulking in the dugout while Jeter was diving into the stands” story.

 

First of all, could Jeter have taken more steps between his catch and dive? The only players I’ve ever seen catch a ball and run further before jumping into the stands all just caught TD passes from Aaron Rodgers.

 

Second, Nomar was injured. That’s why he was out in the dugout and probably why he was upset. But hey, Steve “The Pointless Vendetta” Buckley didn’t think that made for a good story…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

So then you’re condoning adultery as long as it bolsters fWAR?

 

It wasn't the adultering, it was the chicken! Everybody knows that once Boggs' wife caught him straying, she stopped cooking those magic daily pregame dinners that led to annual 8 WARs.

 

Margo couldn't cook, and worse, her take-outs from KFC made his WARdrobe plummet...

[mvp 78]

So then you’re condoning adultery as long as it bolsters fWAR?

 

If it did, then yes!

[mvp 78]

I just don’t like the “he was sulking in the dugout while Jeter was diving into the stands” story.

 

First of all, could Jeter have taken more steps between his catch and dive? The only players I’ve ever seen catch a ball and run further before jumping into the stands all just caught TD passes from Aaron Rodgers.

 

Second, Nomar was injured. That’s why he was out in the dugout and probably why he was upset. But hey, Steve “The Pointless Vendetta” Buckley didn’t think that made for a good story…

 

Why wouldn't he just stand at the top of the dugout and cheer?

[mvp 78]

It wasn't the adultering, it was the chicken! Everybody knows that once Boggs' wife caught him straying, she stopped cooking those magic daily pregame dinners that led to annual 8 WARs.

 

Margo couldn't cook, and worse, her take-outs from KFC made his WARdrobe plummet...

 

Maybe if he stopped at 106 beers and didn't drink that 107th.

[moonslav59]

I just don’t like the “he was sulking in the dugout while Jeter was diving into the stands” story.

 

First of all, could Jeter have taken more steps between his catch and dive? The only players I’ve ever seen catch a ball and run further before jumping into the stands all just caught TD passes from Aaron Rodgers.

 

Second, Nomar was injured. That’s why he was out in the dugout and probably why he was upset. But hey, Steve “The Pointless Vendetta” Buckley didn’t think that made for a good story…

 

I think how he got hurt, and apparently lied about it, also rubbed fans the wrong way.

[moonslav59]

No.

 

Losing cred.

[Old Red]

Why wouldn't he just stand at the top of the dugout and cheer?

 

The Incredible Sulk.

[notin]

Why wouldn't he just stand at the top of the dugout and cheer?

 

I don’t know. Did he ever do that? Are we going to impose our standards on him?

 

The Chickens and Beer crowd didn’t even watch games. Is that really a big deal?

[notin]

It wasn't the adultering, it was the chicken! Everybody knows that once Boggs' wife caught him straying, she stopped cooking those magic daily pregame dinners that led to annual 8 WARs.

 

Margo couldn't cook, and worse, her take-outs from KFC made his WARdrobe plummet...

 

 

You sure Margo couldn’t cook? She had to be able to do something right to land a Hall of Famer and future star of Swamp Shark. Not like she was all that attractive…

[mvp 78]

I don’t know. Did he ever do that? Are we going to impose our standards on him?

 

The Chickens and Beer crowd didn’t even watch games. Is that really a big deal?

 

He said he drank 107 beers once. At that point, at least go for 108.

[Bellhorn04]

To summarize the facts of what led up to Nomar being traded:

 

1) He suffered an injury to his Achilles tendon in spring training. According to Nomar, it happened when he fouled a ball off his heel. But no one else saw it happen, and there were suspicions that the injury wasn't baseball-related.

2) He missed the first 57 games of the season.

3) When he came back, his mobility was noticeably limited. The team did some analysis and concluded that he had become the worst defensive shortstop in the game.

4) He was conspicuously unhappy in the clubhouse. Management was extremely concerned about his attitude and toward the end of July they met with Nomar to find out what was going on with him. The meeting got nowhere.

5) The final straw occurred shortly after this when Nomar informed team trainers and then Francona that he expected he would miss a lot of time in August and September to rehab his injury. Francona called Theo to let him know and Theo talked to Henry, Lucchino and Werner. They were now convinced that Nomar was longer interested in the Red Sox, that all he cared about was looking after himself so he would be healthy in time for free agency.

[moonslav59]

To summarize the facts of what led up to Nomar being traded:

 

1) He suffered an injury to his Achilles tendon in spring training. According to Nomar, it happened when he fouled a ball off his heel. But no one else saw it happen, and there were suspicions that the injury wasn't baseball-related.

2) He missed the first 57 games of the season.

3) When he came back, his mobility was noticeably limited. The team did some analysis and concluded that he had become the worst defensive shortstop in the game.

4) He was conspicuously unhappy in the clubhouse. Management was extremely concerned about his attitude and toward the end of July they met with Nomar to find out what was going on with him. The meeting got nowhere.

5) The final straw occurred shortly after this when Nomar informed team trainers and then Francona that he expected he would miss a lot of time in August and September to rehab his injury. Francona called Theo to let him know and Theo talked to Henry, Lucchino and Werner. They were now convinced that Nomar was longer interested in the Red Sox, that all he cared about was looking after himself so he would be healthy in time for free agency.

 

Interesting to think you could injure your Achilles from a foul ball off your foot.

 

Rumor was he hurt it playing soccer with his wife, and that the Sox could have disputed his story, but chose to give him the benefit of doubt, and he proceeded to shaft the team.

 

We got OCab, and he and is defense were a big part of our first ring in decades.