Better make a move….!!!

[Bellhorn04]

Sale's injury certainly did nothing to get the front office excited about 2022...

[Bellhorn04]

$27M x 6 for a 1Bman who turns 33, this season, coming off his lowest OPS+ number in 6 years.

 

Can anyone really fault Bloom for not offering a penny more than any of these biggest signings?

 

Name one. Just one.

 

$33M x 10 Seager

$26M x 7 Bryant

$25M x 7 Semien

$27M x 6 Freeman

$23M x 6 Baez (maybe?)

$43M x 3 Scherzer

$23M x 5 R Ray

$22M x 5 Gausman

$17M x 5 Suzuki (maybe not?)

$20M x 4 Schwarber

$20M x 4 S Marte

$15M x 5 ERod

$24M x 3 Stroman

$15M x 4 C Taylor

$15M x 4 R Iglesias

$25M x 2 Verlander

$22M x 2 Rodon

$21M x 1 Syndergaard

$20M x 1 Morton

$18M x 1 Belt & Wainwright

 

 

I get your point, but free agent players are going to continue to be overpriced from now until kingdom come.

 

And if they do sign Devers to an extension, they'll probably have to "overpay" him too!

 

But that may be a moot point because, according to Devers, they haven't talked to him about his future with the team at all...

[mvp 78]

True, but I can't help being disappointed and bored. Especially when I think of all the guys we're losing after this year.

 

Next offseason could be an absolute disaster for this franchise. Maybe they are hedging their bets this year due to that? Maybe they'll do all that they can to either re-sign or replace the guys heading out the door. If they are just waiting for the prospect pipeline to develop, it'd be very foolish.

[mvp 78]

Sale's injury certainly did nothing to get the front office excited about 2022...

 

Maybe they are running around like a fire drill? We don't know.

 

I don't know how much they could have reasonably expected out of Sale anyway.

[Old Red]

Sale's injury certainly did nothing to get the front office excited about 2022...

 

Shaugnessy said today that Sales contract is looking more, and more like a Pablo, and Crawford bad contract signing. I agree. DD signed the ext, and ownership signed off on it knowing pretty much that surgery was going to happen, which it did, and the last 3 years going on a fourth was nowhere near being worth it. Add the fact that he isn’t vexed, and can’t pitch in Toronto when he can pitch doesn’t help either.

[Bellhorn04]

Shaugnessy said today that Sales contract is looking more, and more like a Pablo, and Crawford bad contract signing. I agree. DD signed the ext, and ownership signed off on it knowing pretty much that surgery was going to happen, which it did, and the last 3 years going on a fourth was nowhere near being worth it. Add the fact that he isn’t vexed, and can’t pitch in Toronto when he can pitch doesn’t help either.

 

Dan is a champ at stating the obvious.

 

But yeah, Sale's outlook is worrisome.

[mvp 78]

Shaugnessy said today that Sales contract is looking more, and more like a Pablo, and Crawford bad contract signing. I agree. DD signed the ext, and ownership signed off on it knowing pretty much that surgery was going to happen, which it did, and the last 3 years going on a fourth was nowhere near being worth it. Add the fact that he isn’t vexed, and can’t pitch in Toronto when he can pitch doesn’t help either.

 

I would say that Dan is doing really well with 20/20 hindsight for CC and Sale.

[moonslav59]

I'm calling BS on the terms "desperation" and "splash." I just don't believe a team that brags about resetting, and "opportunities", "flexibility" and being "nimble" should stand pat or rely on cheap fill-ins -- especially for the pitching staff.

 

A ballclub doesn't have to be all-in to spend on a good starting pitcher. Don't tell me the time isn't right to go for it, maybe next year. When a team sucks or is just mediocre, the first way to improve is to stabilize the rotation. I'd gladly invest in five years for Robbie Ray or Kevin Gausman at market rate than blow 10 one-year contracts on broken down past-their-prime pitchers; the latter, to me, is what smacks of desperation.

 

A lot of posters hammered the Eovaldi signing at the ungodly $17 million per year. Where would we be without him now? Invest in what matters. Maybe Bloom and Co. truly believe Bello and Groome will become the next Gooden and Braden. In the meantime, legitimate big league arms like Manea and Montas are available -- and we all found ways on Trade Values to get them without giving up Casas and Yorke.

 

I don't disagree, but maybe the A's are not interested in our prospects not names Casas, Mayer or Yorke. Many of the trades I suggested on that site were voted down from the A's side very handily. Many from the Sox side, too, especially if I included Bello.

 

Can you tell me which free agent you think Bloom should have offered $1M more (assuming he'd take it)?

[Old Red]

Dan is a champ at stating the obvious.

 

But yeah, Sale's outlook is worrisome.

 

I said it was bad at the time to give him the ext. He had worn down at the end of 2018, and he still had one more year on his contract in 2019, but they gave the ext anyway, and he has pretty much not been worth it since.

[moonslav59]

If the Red Sox do nothing more this offseason it is going to be a head-scratcher.

 

Maybe the plan is to suck, and deal Bogey, JDM, Eovaldi, Kike and Vaz at the deadline.

 

I mentioned that idea a few days ago, and in terms of the long term outlook, it could make a ton of sense. Fans would be irate for a while, but if Henry & Bloom spent large and long on Devers and some free agents, next winter, maybe forgiveness would win out.

[Old Red]

I would say that Dan is doing really well with 20/20 hindsight for CC and Sale.

 

He said it in 2018 that it was a mistake. That is not hindsight.

[Bellhorn04]

He said it in 2018 that it was a mistake. That is not hindsight.

 

He's always making attention-grabbing predictions, and he's been wrong plenty more than he's been right.

[Old Red]

I mentioned that idea a few days ago, and in terms of the long term outlook, it could make a ton of sense. Fans would be irate for a while, but if Henry & Bloom spent large and long on Devers and some free agents, next winter, maybe forgiveness would win out.

 

Sounds like a pipe dream to me, and like always I’ll believe it when I see happen. Until then I’ll expect bargain basement shopping being the status quo, and think this is not only the new JH, but the JH going forward.

[Bellhorn04]

Every single Red Sox fan has been nervous about Sale's health starting in about August 2018, if not sooner.

 

We just assumed the doctors who examined him knew what they were doing.

[Old Red]

He's always making attention-grabbing predictions, and he's been wrong plenty more than he's been right.

 

This was a no brainer to me.

[Bellhorn04]

This was a no brainer to me.

 

It was a no brainer to be worried about him, yes.

[moonslav59]

I get your point, but free agent players are going to continue to be overpriced from now until kingdom come.

 

And if they do sign Devers to an extension, they'll probably have to "overpay" him too!

 

But that may be a moot point because, according to Devers, they haven't talked to him about his future with the team at all...

 

I'm not saying I'm happy we did not "overpay" for anyone. I suggested maybe the Baez offer may have worked, had we topped it, and I realize "overpaying" free agents has been the nature of the beast for decades, but when you look at the success-failure rate of most mega signings and even many of the second tier signings, it's not pretty. Maybe finding another way to consistently win, by building and maintaining the farm while spending on shorter term FAs to fill the gaps might morph into something special every few years.

 

To be honest, I'm not happy. I've watched a flurry of signings and trades over the last few days. Some of the trades do not look like overpays, but I get the idea of holding onto precious prospects. I don't want 2020 to happen again. My feelings are conflicted and sometimes contradictory. It's hard to accept we did nothing major and haven't even spoken to Devers, yet. There is still time on him, and maybe they want to see if he'll be our 3Bman or 1Bman of the future by watching 2022. Seeing what Freeman got, I'm not sure the money offer changes much for 1Bmen.

 

Had we signed Baez, I'd have been okay watching Bogey go- by trade or free agency, depending on our playoff hopes at the deadline.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not saying I'm happy we did not "overpay" for anyone. I suggested maybe the Baez offer may have worked, had we topped it, and I realize "overpaying" free agents has been the nature of the beast for decades, but when you look at the success-failure rate of most mega signings and even many of the second tier signings, it's not pretty. Maybe finding another way to consistently win, by building and maintaining the farm while spending on shorter term FAs to fill the gaps might morph into something special every few years.

 

To be honest, I'm not happy. I've watched a flurry of signings and trades over the last few days. Some of the trades do not look like overpays, but I get the idea of holding onto precious prospects. I don't want 2020 to happen again. My feelings are conflicted and sometimes contradictory.

 

I get that - my feelings have been like that, too.

[moonslav59]

Sounds like a pipe dream to me, and like always I’ll believe it when I see happen. Until then I’ll expect bargain basement shopping being the status quo, and think this is not only the new JH, but the JH going forward.

 

Pipe dream implies I want it to happen. I don't.

 

"Believe it when you see it?" You did see it- 3 times under Henry.

 

We did have fire sales three in the last decade:

 

The Dodger dump

 

2014: we dumped almost our entire rotation and best pen piece (Lester, Lackey, Doubront, Peavy & Andrew Miller. We also traded Stephen Drew, Jonny Gomes and Kelly Johnson that summer.)

 

The 2020 deadline (Moreland, Workman & Hembree, Pillar, Osich) though nothing spectacular like Crawford, AGon & Beckett.

 

I seriously doubt it happens, but I believe I have seen it, often enough.

[moonslav59]

Every single Red Sox fan has been nervous about Sale's health starting in about August 2018, if not sooner.

 

We just assumed the doctors who examined him knew what they were doing.

 

It sure looks like a mess, but I'd be a hypocrite to criticize the extension after liking it, at the time.

 

Yes, I knew the risk. Yes, I calculated the value by assuming one missed season, and I still liked the idea of keeping one of the top 3 pitchers in MLB on our staff for 5 years- not 7, 8 or 10, like others are getting.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't disagree, but maybe the A's are not interested in our prospects not names Casas, Mayer or Yorke. Many of the trades I suggested on that site were voted down from the A's side very handily. Many from the Sox side, too, especially if I included Bello.

 

Can you tell me which free agent you think Bloom should have offered $1M more (assuming he'd take it)?

 

If we all can accept the market rate for good starting pitchers in their primes -- whatever that is, $20M or $25M -- then I would have no problem if Bloom had signed Ray, Gausman, Stroman or Rodon. I'm just not into old Scherzers at $40M+ though or one year for Thor because neither are investments that cover both now and the future.

 

I also think most here would admit that Eovaldi at $17M per is at least a fair rate for an ace the past two years; that's the kind of guy any team should invest in to stabilize its rotation. I'd take another Eovaldi over a combined Richards and Perez any day.

[Bellhorn04]

It sure looks like a mess, but I'd be a hypocrite to criticize the extension after liking it, at the time.

 

Yeah, like I say, we were kind of putting our faith in DD and the medical staff to evaluate Chris's health properly.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, like I say, we were kind of putting our faith in DD and the medical staff to evaluate Chris's health properly.

 

No, not again........

[moonslav59]

If we all can accept the market rate for good starting pitchers in their primes -- whatever that is, $20M or $25M -- then I would have no problem if Bloom had signed Ray, Gausman, Stroman or Rodon. I'm just not into old Scherzers at $40M+ though or one year for Thor because neither are investments that cover both now and the future.

 

I also think most here would admit that Eovaldi at $17M per is at least a fair rate for an ace the past two years; that's the kind of guy any team should invest in to stabilize its rotation. I'd take another Eovaldi over a combined Richards and Perez any day.

 

True, but when we signed Eovaldi to that money, he had never pitched like this, before.

 

His highest ERA+ was 114 back with Miami in 2013, and that was just for 103 IP.

 

He blew away his best FIP by leading the league at 2.79. His career FIP before 2021 was 3.97.

 

And yes, I understand signing really good pitchers will cost $20-25M a year and more for the very best, but the guys you listed did not "wow" me, at all.

 

Now, some of the guys traded for did.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, like I say, we were kind of putting our faith in DD and the medical staff to evaluate Chris's health properly.

 

No medical staff can project a broken rib.

 

I think they expected a lost year for TJS.

[Nick]

Let's see...if I got this right

 

Jays added Chapman but lost Siemien.

 

Jays added Gausman but lost their Cy Young guy.

 

Yep looks like mega improvement.

[mvp 78]

Let's see...if I got this right

 

Jays added Chapman but lost Siemien.

 

Jays added Gausman but lost their Cy Young guy.

 

Yep looks like mega improvement.

 

A fUlL yEaR fRoM BeRrIoS!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Let's see...if I got this right

 

Jays added Chapman but lost Siemien.

 

Jays added Gausman but lost their Cy Young guy.

 

Yep looks like mega improvement.

 

Toronto is automatically better than Boston by planning to play its full team in every game; Sox still have players banned from Canada.

[moonslav59]

Let's see...if I got this right

 

Jays added Chapman but lost Siemien.

 

Jays added Gausman but lost their Cy Young guy.

 

Yep looks like mega improvement.

 

Good points, but they also have Berrios for a full season and signed Kikuchi, this winter.

 

Rotation: Ryu, Berrios, Gausman, Manoah & Kikuchi

 

Their infield is insane!

Guerrro (1B), Biggio (2B), Bichette (SS) and Chapman (3B) with Santiago Espinal at utility.

 

Their OF is not too shaby either:

Gurriel, Springer & Teoscar Hernandez (Grichuk as the #4)

 

Jansen is their catcher.

 

Their pen is not great.

 

OPS in 2021

1.002 Vlad

.907 Springer

.870 THern

.828 Bichette

.785 Gurriel

.781 Espinal

.772 Jansen

.716 Chapman (.808 career)

.703 Grichuk

.678 Biggio (.762 career)

[moonslav59]

A fUlL yEaR fRoM BeRrIoS!

 

...and maybe Springer & Biggio, too