Will there be a 2022 season?

[moonslav59]

Do you think Ted has ever actually seen an NBA game?

 

Maybe back in the Bob Cousy era.

[Bellhorn04]

This whole debacle will result in MLB losing more fans. Maybe not the diehards who post on TalkSox and such , but definitely some of the marginal fans.

 

It's time to call it what it is. The people responsible for this are a bunch of bumbling buffoons who will ruin the whole season, and the government probably needs to step in and appoint an arbitrator (as if they don't already have enough to deal with).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It's time to call it what it is. The people responsible for this are a bunch of bumbling buffoons who will ruin the whole season, and the government probably needs to step in and appoint an arbitrator (as if they don't already have enough to deal with).

 

I know an 11-year old who owns binders of baseball cards, caps, shirts, helmets... up until a week ago -- for three months -- he asked everyday if they settled. But now he's all done.

 

Now he watches basketball and hockey, and refuses to even talk about big league baseball.

 

We should still send him to the next meeting, to show the owners and union how they've ruined fandom.

[moonslav59]

They are really miscalculating the different era we are in, as compared to the last work stoppage eras.

 

There are way too many other viable options for entertainment out there, and people are creatures of habit. Once they get in the habit of a new hobby or activity, it might not be as easy to lure them back as it was before.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

They are really miscalculating the different era we are in, as compared to the last work stoppage eras.

 

There are way too many other viable options for entertainment out there, and people are creatures of habit. Once they get in the habit of a new hobby or activity, it might not be as easy to lure them back as it was before.

 

It feels like the implications of climate change; people can choose to ignore, but there's no denying that time runs out on everything...

[moonslav59]

It feels like the implications of climate change; people can choose to ignore, but there's no denying that time runs out on everything...

 

At worst (or best, depending on how you view it), I am tied for being the most rabid Sox fan in the world. I'm obsessed!

 

I'm at the point where I really don't care, if the players bunker down and don't give in to the owner's BS and we miss a season.

 

I'll be back, next year, but I will have lost some passion, and I'm not sure I'll ever get it back, unless we win a ring, real soon... LOL!

[Bellhorn04]

They are really miscalculating the different era we are in, as compared to the last work stoppage eras.

 

There are way too many other viable options for entertainment out there, and people are creatures of habit. Once they get in the habit of a new hobby or activity, it might not be as easy to lure them back as it was before.

 

They're idiots. It never occurred to them that maybe they should keep 2022 intact after 2020 was ruined by COVID, there's a war going on et cetera. They're in their own selfish little world. They're not in the real world.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

At worst (or best, depending on how you view it), I am tied for being the most rabid Sox fan in the world. I'm obsessed!

 

I'm at the point where I really don't care, if the players bunker down and don't give in to the owner's BS and we miss a season.

 

I'll be back, next year, but I will have lost some passion, and I'm not sure I'll ever get it back, unless we win a ring, real soon... LOL!

 

Old guys like us can handle it, but it's unforgivable what they're doing to the kids that still actually care about a pastime past its time. With all the sadness going on in the world, did a diversion that gave my son a sense of wonder and escapism really have to turn on him? When our generation is gone, and the next doesn't give a crap about baseball, then what?

[moonslav59]

They're idiots. It never occurred to them that maybe they should keep 2022 intact after 2020 was ruined by COVID, there's a war going on et cetera. They're in their own selfish little world. They're not in the real world.

 

Well said, as usual.

[moonslav59]

Old guys like us can handle it, but it's unforgivable what they're doing to the kids that still actually care about a pastime past its time. With all the sadness going on in the world, did a diversion that gave my son a sense of wonder and escapism really have to turn on him? When our generation is gone, and the next doesn't give a crap about baseball, then what?

 

I fear the answer to your question.

[mvp 78]

The NBA is a crap league where stars totally control where they play. MLB does not need to copy anything from the NBA. The NBA has low ratings for a reason. The product stinks.

 

NBA ratings are down, but they are still ahead of MLB.

[mvp 78]

They're idiots. It never occurred to them that maybe they should keep 2022 intact after 2020 was ruined by COVID, there's a war going on et cetera. They're in their own selfish little world. They're not in the real world.

 

Players were willing to start 2022 under the old CBA, the owners weren't.

[Bellhorn04]

Players were willing to start 2022 under the old CBA, the owners weren't.

 

Yep. And the supposed counterargument was that they tried that in 1994 and it backfired.

 

I'm not going to pick sides any more. They're all f***ing up royally. The whole process needs to change, because they've proven they can't be counted on to negotiate with a sense of urgency.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think I have much sympathy for the players any more either. Is a minimum salary of $700 K + really so bad? The bottom line is, if you're a really good player, you're going to make a ton of money.

[notin]

Yep. And the supposed counterargument was that they tried that in 1994 and it backfired.

 

I'm not going to pick sides any more. They're all f***ing up royally. The whole process needs to change, because they've proven they can't be counted on to negotiate with a sense of urgency.

 

 

And they’ve done it without stoppages since.

 

I’m rapidly becoming seriously anti-owner. And now Cubs’ owner Tom Ricketts is looking to purchase an English football (re: soccer) team currently owned by a Russian oligarch. Apparently Ricketts is dissatisfied by the prospect of having only one team he doesn’t want to pay for…

[mvp 78]

The owners chose a lockout and then sat on their hands for weeks and weeks and weeks before even meeting with the players. They still get the lion share of the blame IMO.

[moonslav59]

Yep. And the supposed counterargument was that they tried that in 1994 and it backfired.

 

I'm not going to pick sides any more. They're all f***ing up royally. The whole process needs to change, because they've proven they can't be counted on to negotiate with a sense of urgency.

 

I can't blame the players for not accepting that last and final, absurd offer from the owners.

 

To me, it's 100% owners, hands down.

 

Sure, the players' initial offer was absurd, too, but they backed way down and gave up somethings, too. Their last offer was not really absurd, and I think they showed a willingness to trade off and lower some of their last demands.

[moonslav59]

The owners chose a lockout and then sat on their hands for weeks and weeks and weeks before even meeting with the players. They still get the lion share of the blame IMO.

 

That was what exposed the owners. They did not even give their first offer for weeks.

 

If they had any sense of urgency, or even the perception of urgency, they'd have had a halfway decent offer on day one. (Even their last and final offer is not what I call halfway decent, but it might have been a good starting point.)

[moonslav59]

I don't think I have much sympathy for the players any more either. Is a minimum salary of $700 K + really so bad? The bottom line is, if you're a really good player, you're going to make a ton of money.

 

1. I think they'd accept $700K+ minor raises.

2. Many players don't ever make much more than the min, and they spent years in the minors before getting their one and often brief chance.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't think I have much sympathy for the players any more either. Is a minimum salary of $700 K + really so bad? The bottom line is, if you're a really good player, you're going to make a ton of money.

 

...which brings us back to the contentious multimillion dollar pool for the really good young players. I know nothing about negotiating, but what I see: union asks for $100M, owners offer $10, U $95/O $15, U $90/O $20 -- and back and forth they go. It was based on these increments that I chose late-May on the poll before we'd see games again.

 

If both sides really want to end this dreadlock, why not just meet in the middle NOW, which is where they're headed anyway?

[moonslav59]

...which brings us back to the contentious multimillion dollar pool for the really good young players. I know nothing about negotiating, but what I see: union asks for $100M, owners offer $10, U $95/O $15, U $90/O $20 -- and back and forth they go. It was based on these increments that I chose late-May on the poll before we'd see games again.

 

If both sides really want to end this dreadlock, why not just meet in the middle NOW, which is where they're headed anyway?

 

There is also a wide gap on the lux tax limits and percentages for going over.

[mvp 78]

...which brings us back to the contentious multimillion dollar pool for the really good young players. I know nothing about negotiating, but what I see: union asks for $100M, owners offer $10, U $95/O $15, U $90/O $20 -- and back and forth they go. It was based on these increments that I chose late-May on the poll before we'd see games again.

 

If both sides really want to end this dreadlock, why not just meet in the middle NOW, which is where they're headed anyway?

 

Owners don't want to meet in the middle. They haven't really moved off their CBT amount at all. Players have already made a ton of concessions.

[Old Red]

1. I think they'd accept $700K+ minor raises.

2. Many players don't ever make much more than the min, and they spent years in the minors before getting their one and often brief chance.

 

As I have stated before I blame both sides, and I still do. I still don’t have any sympathy for the players even at $500K. How many non professional baseball players would like to make $500K, and could live more than comfortably. The players are the show there is no question about that, but the owners are the ones who put on the show, which the players can’t do without, and if they could they would. Has the owners bargained in good faith NO. There is no doubt to me that they wanted a fight, and had no intention of starting the season, which sucks all the way around, and is bad for the sport. Call the owners all the names you want, but that won’t faze them one bit. The only thing that would would be to hit them in their wallets, but that won’t happen either.

[S5Dewey]

Yep. And the supposed counterargument was that they tried that in 1994 and it backfired.

 

I'm not going to pick sides any more. They're all f***ing up royally. The whole process needs to change, because they've proven they can't be counted on to negotiate with a sense of urgency.

And this, my Canadian friend, is what irks me more than anything. I'm not certain who's to blame for this but in any negotiation I've heard of or been a part of things became handled with urgency once the deadline drew near. However, both the players and the unions appear to be taking the attitude of " Yeah, let's try to get together two weeks from Wednesday. After all, we're pretty busy, too busy in fact to deal with a small thing like negotiating a contract." They should be there Every Day hammering out something they can agree on.

 

In the meantime the fans are sitting idly back waiting for someone...anyone...to act like this matters.

 

I'm tired of it, the entire thing. If my math is right between the games not played in 2020 due to Covid and the games not played this year due to the lockout the Boston Red Sox now owe me enough money to pay for next year's ST tickets.

After the 2020 season I let the balance due me "ride" being certain that I'd be back to Ft. Myers whenever I felt I could safely return and I'd use the balance I'd accrued toward the next season's tickets.

Now I'm thinking that after this ST season I'm going to email them requesting a cash refund of what they owe me along with a note that once I receive the refund I'll wait until next year before deciding whether to come back.

Edited March 7, 2022 by S5Dewey

[S5Dewey]

...which brings us back to the contentious multimillion dollar pool for the really good young players. I know nothing about negotiating, but what I see: union asks for $100M, owners offer $10, U $95/O $15, U $90/O $20 -- and back and forth they go.

This is the ONLY issue in which I have any sympathy for the owners. Unlike the usual issues in negotiations this pool is something entirely new. The players started a $100M and the owners started at $0, This was the expected starting point for the owners since it was something new. IMO $100M was a pie-in-the-sky starting point but I would expect the owners to meet them half way as their final offer on the issue. However, their $10M offer is an insult and borders on not bargaining in good faith.

[moonslav59]

As I have stated before I blame both sides, and I still do. I still don’t have any sympathy for the players even at $500K. How many non professional baseball players would like to make $500K, and could live more than comfortably. The players are the show there is no question about that, but the owners are the ones who put on the show, which the players can’t do without, and if they could they would. Has the owners bargained in good faith NO. There is no doubt to me that they wanted a fight, and had no intention of starting the season, which sucks all the way around, and is bad for the sport. Call the owners all the names you want, but that won’t faze them one bit. The only thing that would would be to hit them in their wallets, but that won’t happen either.

 

To me, it's not about how many people would love to make $500K. You could apply that to many entertainment industries, and apply it a thousand or more times to what the owners make.

 

I'm not trying to open a can of worms. I respect your opinion, but with all the money being made off these highly-talented guys, I think they all should get $1M + a year. That would still leave plent more for the owners.

 

(BTW, I'm okay with limiting the max contracts.)

[moonslav59]

This is the ONLY issue in which I have any sympathy for the owners. Unlike the usual issues in negotiations this pool is something entirely new. The players started a $100M and the owners started at $0, This was the expected starting point for the owners since it was something new. IMO $100M was a pie-in-the-sky starting point but I would expect the owners to meet them half way as their final offer on the issue. However, their $10M offer is an insult and borders on not bargaining in good faith.

 

If the owners gave in on other issues, I could see sticking to the $10M number, here, but of course, we'll see no such thing from these greedy bastards.

[Old Red]

To me, it's not about how many people would love to make $500K. You could apply that to many entertainment industries, and apply it a thousand or more times to what the owners make.

 

I'm not trying to open a can of worms. I respect your opinion, but with all the money being made off these highly-talented guys, I think they all should get $1M + a year. That would still leave plent more for the owners.

 

(BTW, I'm okay with limiting the max contracts.)

 

Yes you could apply to other entertainment industries, but we’re talking about baseball. Yes there is money being made off these players, but like I said the owners put on the show. Why don’t the players put on there own show? Just like there is big differences on what owners spend on payroll there is big differences on what players make, and that’s why the average salary gets up to $4M+. What do you call a max contract, and what would you limit?

[jad]

The owners obviously feel they don't lose much by cancelling ST. Also, revenues in April? big deal. Players lose paycheck; owners? meh. What will get their attention is players' willingness to lose months if not the entire season. When the value of their leveraged franchises craters, maybe all this macho posturing will end. Surely some of the owners/stockholders are going to say--we are making millions and millions in this business. Why risk that just to proclaim victory over our employees?

[Bellhorn04]

I can't blame the players for not accepting that last and final, absurd offer from the owners.

 

To me, it's 100% owners, hands down.

 

Sure, the players' initial offer was absurd, too, but they backed way down and gave up somethings, too. Their last offer was not really absurd, and I think they showed a willingness to trade off and lower some of their last demands.

 

I think the players did a s***** job in the last 2 CBA's and now they're trying to make up for it. Where were all the concerns about minimum salaries and tax threshold increases then?

 

Now they're looking for big increases.

 

s***** negotiating is s***** negotiating.