Will there be a 2022 season?

[notin]

They are separate business decisions.

 

True but each side has to get as much money as possible from baseball until they together completely destroy it…

[mvp 78]

FWIW Jim Bowden of The Athletic thinks the owners have made considerably more concessions to the players than vice versa.

 

The owners believe one of their significant concessions is backing off a proposal that would punish any team that went over the lux cap with draft pick penalties in year 1. Laughable.

[mvp 78]

I think Bowden has a great proposal on the luxury tax - say yes to the stiffer penalties, but bump the threshold up to 240 million. As notin might say, even Dombrowski should be able to put together a good team for 239 million.

 

It in effect creates a real cap. That's a no to the players.

[mvp 78]

I think they want to recoup some of the losses. But there is a LOT of water carrying for the owners here - in particular, where he opines that the MLB players have the best CBA in pro sports when their CBA is also the only one where the players do not get a guaranteed share of the pie.

 

Other leagues don't have restrictions where most players can't reach FA until they are 29.

[sk7326]

Other leagues don't have restrictions where most players can't reach FA until they are 29.

 

Right - the other leagues have forms of restricted free agency ... which I think is much preferable to arbitration, even if the incumbent team has a right to match.

[sk7326]

It in effect creates a real cap. That's a no to the players.

 

I think it might not even be that - like having a threshold might be fine ... but you have to peg it to some agreed-upon definition of net revenue. If you don't do that - then you are decoupling player salaries from the growth of the game. That's the thing with the salary cap sports ... for better or for worse, it guarantees the players a slice of a mutually agreed upon pie. The players have neither of those things at the moment.

[mvp 78]

I think it might not even be that - like having a threshold might be fine ... but you have to peg it to some agreed-upon definition of net revenue. If you don't do that - then you are decoupling player salaries from the growth of the game. That's the thing with the salary cap sports ... for better or for worse, it guarantees the players a slice of a mutually agreed upon pie. The players have neither of those things at the moment.

 

Yes. A big part of the problem is that the cap is only increasing 1-2% a year. We know, or at least believe, that revenues are increasing at a much higher rate than that.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The players have a right to seek as much as they can make while they can, but there must also be plenty of young guys on the verge of making the majors or hoping to taste more than a cup of coffee that aren't too happy they're turning down a half-million dollars or more right now to play baseball. The owners are counting on that, though there'd be a lot more young guys with aspirations to make minimum wage, if the owners weren't so intent on cutting even more minor league jobs.

 

The owners have always had their way, except for when Marvin Miller headed the charge into free agency, but that historic change was long overdue, bringing down an archaic unfair system.

 

More than anyone else, this sucks for fans, who the owners don't give a crap about because they know we always come back, and always will.

[mvp 78]

Yes. A big part of the problem is that the cap is only increasing 1-2% a year. We know, or at least believe, that revenues are increasing at a much higher rate than that.

 

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2298659/mlbs-luxury-tax-proposal-is-trying-to-squeeze-a-cap-on-salaries

 

Since 2003, MLB revenue has increased by $6.5B and due to revenue sharing, all owners are reaping the benefits. The lux tax cap has only increased by $89M over that time and only a handful of teams spend that much. If the luxury tax kept pace with revenue, the cap would now be $312M. It was $102M less than that last season.

[moonslav59]

Yes, but this is not a necessity.

 

No, it's not, but it's the nature of the beast.

 

Why should baseball be any different from other entertainment venues that are seeing massive ticket price increases?

[moonslav59]

Yes. A big part of the problem is that the cap is only increasing 1-2% a year. We know, or at least believe, that revenues are increasing at a much higher rate than that.

 

Inflation, alone, blows the 1-2% out of the water.

[Nick]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2298659/mlbs-luxury-tax-proposal-is-trying-to-squeeze-a-cap-on-salaries

 

Since 2003, MLB revenue has increased by $6.5B and due to revenue sharing, all owners are reaping the benefits. The lux tax cap has only increased by $89M over that time and only a handful of teams spend that much. If the luxury tax kept pace with revenue, the cap would now be $312M. It was $102M less than that last season.

 

If the players union really want to force issues, then they have to be willing to force a shutdown. That's the only way to hurt the owners.

 

The problem is is G Cole willing to forego his $30M+ salary? What about younger guys with family? Can they survive without $500K? Mortgage payments?

 

This is why the owners will always have the upper hand. They are the casino owners and players are the players. Casino always wins in the end.

[moonslav59]

So, how is this?

 

Min wage goes to

$850K in 2022

$900K in 2023

$950K in 2024

$1M in 2025

 

Initiate floor for team player salary budget (not including player benefit payment):

$50M in 2023

$60M in 2024

$75M in 2025

(Teams not reaching floor get no revenue sharing from Lux Tax and possibly other penalties.)

 

Lux Tax Line and Tax rates:

2022:

Level 1 $220M (Tax: 25% 1st year/ 35% 2nd year/60% 3rd year)

Level 2 $240M (Tax: 35%/50%/75%)

2023:

Level 1: $225M (30%/40%/70%)

Level 2: $240M (40%/60%/90%)

2024:

Level 1: $230M (33%/50%/75%)

Level 2: $245M (50%/75%/100%)

2025:

Level 1: $235M (35%/60%/80%)

Level 2: $250M (50%/75%/100%)

 

Start ARB years one year earlier (free agency comes 1 year earlier)

 

Rosters to 27 Players

 

Universal DH

 

Robo Umps

 

Expanded Playoffs, if owners insist

 

[mvp 78]

I believe expanded playoffs have already been agreed upon.

[Old Red]

No, it's not, but it's the nature of the beast.

 

Why should baseball be any different from other entertainment venues that are seeing massive ticket price increases?

 

I’m not saying it should, but it’s not getting anymore money from me either in person, or for TV. Like I said in the big scheme of things its not a necessity.

[moonslav59]

I’m not saying it should, but it’s not getting anymore money from me either in person, or for TV. Like I said in the big scheme of things its not a necessity.

 

I've limited my concert-going as well, due to ticket prices.

 

I haven't been to Fenway is 3 years. I do catch 2 games when they come to Houston, but I sit in the nosebleed section at like $22 a pop.

[dgalehouse]

Is MLB a national pastime or is it just another cutthroat business enterprise? If it is the former , then competitive balance is important. If it is the latter , owners should be able to spend as much or as little as they please. And free agency should be a constant open season , depending on a player's contract. It would be dog eat dog. Right now , MLB and the players seem to want it both ways. Obviously , there will be a compromise at some point. But the animosity will remain and the fans will continue to become disenchanted .

[Old Red]

I've limited my concert-going as well, due to ticket prices.

 

I haven't been to Fenway is 3 years. I do catch 2 games when they come to Houston, but I sit in the nosebleed section at like $22 a pop.

 

When I went to my first game in Fenway in 1965 the highest priced ticket was $3, which was a Box Seat.

[dgalehouse]

When I went to my first game in Fenway in 1965 the highest priced ticket was $3, which was a Box Seat.

 

Today , $3 might get you enough gas to mow your lawn.

[mvp 78]

Today , $3 might get you enough gas to mow your lawn.

 

The price of a low A baseball game in 2022 will be more expensive than what I paid in the 90's if you include concessions.

[dgalehouse]

The price of a low A baseball game in 2022 will be more expensive than what I paid in the 90's if you include concessions.

 

When I was a kid ( admittedly many seasons ago) , we would save up money from the deposits on soda bottles and buy general admission tickets at the ballpark . If you got there early enough , you could find a seat which was nearly as good as many of the reserved seats.

[sk7326]

[sk7326]

So, how is this?

 

Min wage goes to

$850K in 2022

$900K in 2023

$950K in 2024

$1M in 2025

 

Initiate floor for team player salary budget (not including player benefit payment):

$50M in 2023

$60M in 2024

$75M in 2025

(Teams not reaching floor get no revenue sharing from Lux Tax and possibly other penalties.)

 

Lux Tax Line and Tax rates:

2022:

Level 1 $220M (Tax: 25% 1st year/ 35% 2nd year/60% 3rd year)

Level 2 $240M (Tax: 35%/50%/75%)

2023:

Level 1: $225M (30%/40%/70%)

Level 2: $240M (40%/60%/90%)

2024:

Level 1: $230M (33%/50%/75%)

Level 2: $245M (50%/75%/100%)

2025:

Level 1: $235M (35%/60%/80%)

Level 2: $250M (50%/75%/100%)

 

Start ARB years one year earlier (free agency comes 1 year earlier)

 

Rosters to 27 Players

 

Universal DH

 

Robo Umps

 

Expanded Playoffs, if owners insist

 

 

Expanded playoffs is happening - players want 12, owners want 14 - I prefer 12.

 

The tiers are all wrong and should be indexed to some fixed percentage of agreed upon "value". It could be all revenue with some allowance for stadium-related debt or whatever. The minimum salary should be pegged the same way. As mvp noted, a justifiable upper limit based on actual revenue growth is much closer to $320M than $240.

 

Players should get 1 months salary guaranteed if they spend a day in the majors. (with an 850,000 minimum, that is about 140K)

 

Players receive the smallest share of the pie relative to the other American sports and while this goes some ways to remedy that, it's still going to be last.

 

And yes, it's not on the table right now but the union should be pushing to add 2 teams.

[sk7326]

When Justice Sotomayor saved baseball in her previous life, it happened on March 29 ... and the league was able to execute a 144 game season with a normal playoff. Judging by that, we still have another 2ish weeks or so where we can get a 162 game season. The almost certain added tier of playoffs likely will make getting 162 in a lot harder if there is much more dawdling that that.

[moonslav59]

When I went to my first game in Fenway in 1965 the highest priced ticket was $3, which was a Box Seat.

 

I paid $1 a bleacher ticket to see the Brewers play at the old County Stadium just 2 blocks from my house. (early 70's)

[moonslav59]

 

And yes, it's not on the table right now but the union should be pushing to add 2 teams.

 

Adding a 27th roster slot is a big gain. adding 2 teams would be more players, but the product is already watered down enough, IMO.

[moonslav59]

The tiers are all wrong and should be indexed to some fixed percentage of agreed upon "value". It could be all revenue with some allowance for stadium-related debt or whatever. The minimum salary should be pegged the same way. As mvp noted, a justifiable upper limit based on actual revenue growth is much closer to $320M than $240.

 

It's not going much higher than $240M, IMO.

 

I'm not sure it has to, if you significantly raise the min salary and start having a floor on lower team spending minimums that rises over the years.

[sk7326]

It's not going much higher than $240M, IMO.

 

I'm not sure it has to, if you significantly raise the min salary and start having a floor on lower team spending minimums that rises over the years.

 

I think the upper limit should go up at a much higher rate than "less than the cost of living" ... I think the players would (and should) see a one time increase in the cap as effectively buying time before the owners' collective miserly ways come back.

[Bellhorn04]

I think the upper limit should go up at a much higher rate than "less than the cost of living" ... I think the players would (and should) see a one time increase in the cap as effectively buying time before the owners' collective miserly ways come back.

 

The players have agreed to tiny increases in the tax thresholds the last couple of CBA's.

[moonslav59]

I think the upper limit should go up at a much higher rate than "less than the cost of living" ... I think the players would (and should) see a one time increase in the cap as effectively buying time before the owners' collective miserly ways come back.

 

I'm all on the player's side, but I think the lower tier players are the ones that need the biggest boost.

 

I get the trickle down theory of the big contracts, but to me, raising the min wage, perhaps to more than $1M in 3-4 years is huge.

 

Lessening the arb years and years to free agency is bigger for most players.

 

Creating a floor on team spending would create more competition for the lower tier free agents and drive their salaries up quite a bit.

 

I do see an advantage of raising the lux tax line above $240M, but I think the other areas I mentioned help more players.