9/02 SOX @ Rays 7:10PM

[moonslav59]

I don't disagree, here, guys.

 

My point is I will not criticize someone for doing something I supported at the time.

 

That's not the same as saying I think he did the right thing.

 

With all the evidence that came out afterwards, some of which just brought up here, sure the choice looked wrong, but Pedro was the greatest Sox pitcher of all time.

 

I think you can find better examples of something undebatable.

[Maxbialystock]

Nice win tonight, 4-0 shutout of the best team in the AL.

 

But enough of that. Feel free to discuss idle thoughts.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Nice win tonight, 4-0 shutout of the best team in the AL.

 

But enough of that. Feel free to discuss idle thoughts.

 

When I put my car in neutral, sometimes it's inclined to let gravity take over.

 

When Dalbec -- or just about any Red Sox batter -- hits to the opposite field, it's always a good thing.

[Hugh2]

If we had to split, I'd rather take the last two games than the first two. Leave on a high note against the best AL team and hopefully start a little tailspin for them. A boost of confidence for us going in against a decent team in Cleveland.

 

It would be the most 2021 thing ever if this Covidsquad team started to right the ship for the Sox.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

I was glad Pedro stayed in, at the time, so I'd be hypocritical to throw stones at Little on that.

 

I'm not saying I was right. Hindsight shows I was not, but Pedro at 75% was better than anyone else, and we were beat by a bloop hit, so there is that to create a discussion.

 

And here I thought all this time that I was the only one who agreed with Grady at the time of the decision. From what I recall the pen could not really be trusted and I trusted a tired Pedro over those guys. Obviously we were both wrong.

[moonslav59]

And here I thought all this time that I was the only one who agreed with Grady at the time of the decision. From what I recall the pen could not really be trusted and I trusted a tired Pedro over those guys. Obviously we were both wrong.

 

Actually, we may not have been "wrong."

 

We'll never know what the pen would have done instead of what Pedro did. It might have been a lose-lose choice.

[Bellhorn04]

The pen was lights-out that postseason. It is what it is.

 

I think the real bottom line is that there was no possible way Pedro was finishing that game, considering he was at 123 pitches with 5 outs left. So Grady had to rely on the pen, he had no choice. He just didn't do it soon enough.

[mvp 78]

Actually, we may not have been "wrong."

 

We'll never know what the pen would have done instead of what Pedro did. It might have been a lose-lose choice.

 

Actually, you WERE wrong. The proof is in the pudding. At the end of the night you were crying in your beer and not dancing in the streets.

[moonslav59]

Actually, you WERE wrong. The proof is in the pudding. At the end of the night you were crying in your beer and not dancing in the streets.

 

It's the ole "what if" argument. Maybe the pen gives up 3HRs in a row.

 

One sure wrong vs one possible wrong, is how I see it, but if the call was a lose-lose, how can the manager be blamed? (Note the "if.")

[moonslav59]

The pen was lights-out that postseason. It is what it is.

 

I think the real bottom line is that there was no possible way Pedro was finishing that game, considering he was at 123 pitches with 5 outs left. So Grady had to rely on the pen, he had no choice. He just didn't do it soon enough.

 

Pens that have been lights out always continue to be lights out?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The pen was lights-out that postseason. It is what it is.

 

I think the real bottom line is that there was no possible way Pedro was finishing that game, considering he was at 123 pitches with 5 outs left. So Grady had to rely on the pen, he had no choice. He just didn't do it soon enough.

 

The mortal sin wasn't relying on Pedro; it was Little changing the plan and messing with the psyche of his players, who had all their adrenaline drained, five outs from the World Series.

 

In an interview, Pedro said he was relaxing in the dugout after the 7th and suddenly asked if he could get Nick Johnson out (soon to be leading off the bottom of the 8th). He agreed, and delivered... and then the plan changed again -- when the guy who was supposed to come in to face Jeter (probably Timlin) was left in the bullpen. The rest is infamy.

[Bellhorn04]

Pens that have been lights out always continue to be lights out?

 

Like I say, Pedro wasn't finishing the game. Ergo, Grady needed to turn to the pen.

 

After the hit by Williams, Grady went out to the mound to talk to Pedro. That's not what a manager is supposed to do. He's supposed to make up his own mind.

[mvp 78]

Like I say, Pedro wasn't finishing the game. Ergo, Grady needed to turn to the pen.

 

After the hit by Williams, Grady went out to the mound to talk to Pedro. That's not what a manager is supposed to do. He's supposed to make up his own mind.

 

"Hey Pedro, I know you're one of the most competitive people in the world. Do you think you can get the next few guys out? Oh, good!"

[Maxbialystock]

The specific evidence--especially the 123 pitches thrown by Pedro Martinez--is damning enough. But let's not forget that Grady Little was fired after 2 seasons with the Sox and later after 2 seasons with the Dodgers. He was--what's that line from Home Alone?--one of "les incompetents."

 

Indeed, that terrible decision by Grady Little was a contribution to the dud liberation movement and paved the way for John Henry to become the most successful owner in Sox history.

 

A truly knowledgeable Sox fan should be grateful that Grady demonstrated his incompetence so thoroughly.

[Bellhorn04]

"Hey Pedro, I know you're one of the most competitive people in the world. Do you think you can get the next few guys out? Oh, good!"

 

He put Pedro in an awful position. Pedro was old school enough not to ask out of the game. But doofus Grady somehow missed that Pedro thought he was out of the game after the 7th!

[Maxbialystock]

Note to splendidsplinter: way to go!!!! Two huge wins when they were badly needed.

[Bellhorn04]

The specific evidence--especially the 123 pitches thrown by Pedro Martinez--is damning enough. But let's not forget that Grady Little was fired after 2 seasons with the Sox and later after 2 seasons with the Dodgers. He was--what's that line from Home Alone?--one of "les incompetents."

 

Indeed, that terrible decision by Grady Little was a contribution to the dud liberation movement and paved the way for John Henry to become the most successful owner in Sox history.

 

A truly knowledgeable Sox fan should be grateful that Grady demonstrated his incompetence so thoroughly.

 

Right. Thankfully for us, the 2004 team rectified everything.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Indeed, that terrible decision by Grady Little was a contribution to the dud liberation movement and paved the way for John Henry to become the most successful owner in Sox history.

 

A truly knowledgeable Sox fan should be grateful that Grady demonstrated his incompetence so thoroughly.

 

Gotta agree; if the Sox make it to the '03 World Series, they don't fire Little and hire Francona for '04. So it was absolutely essential that Red Sox Nation suffer its worst defeat so it could revel in its greatest victory.

[notin]

Right. Thankfully for us, the 2004 team rectified everything.

 

Not only did it rectify everything, but by being the first team ever to come back from a 3-0 deficit and to do so 1) after trailing in the 9th inning of game 4 and 2) to complete the comeback in the Bronx in front of horrified Yankee fans more than made up for a single game 7 loss…

[notin]

Gotta agree; if the Sox make it to the '03 World Series, they don't fire Little and hire Francona for '04. So it was absolutely essential that Red Sox Nation suffer its worst defeat so it could revel in its greatest victory.

 

Come on. The 2003 ALCS game 7 is NOT the worst defeat in Sox history. Game 6 of the 1986 World Series is the clear worst…

[Bellhorn04]

Come on. The 2003 is NOT the worst defeat in Sox history. Game 6 of the 1986 World Series is the clear worst…

 

My vote will always be the 1978 playoff game. Followed by 86 followed by 03.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Not only did it rectify everything, but by being the first team ever to come back from a 3-0 deficit and to do so 1) after trailing in the 9th inning of game 4 and 2) to complete the comeback in the Bronx in front of horrified Yankee fans more than made up for a single game 7 loss…

 

whatsamatter notin, don't you get your news from FOX? Ruth/Dent/Buckner/Boone are one long continuous narrative. They still try to revive that s*** whenever they feature NY vs Bos. Unfortunately, casual viewers half our ages only know that the Red Sox have won the most World Series this century.

 

... and '03 was the worst as a last straw accumulation of angst for long-suffering fans who couldn't take it any more.

Edited September 3, 2021 by 5GoldGloves:OF,75

[mvp 78]

Right. Thankfully for us, the 2004 team rectified everything.

 

It made up for 2003 for sure. At least 1986 game me a story that my kids love to hear (my dad waking me up to tell me that the Sox are going to win the WS and then me witnessing the Gedman/Stanley mix up and disaster that followed).

[mvp 78]

Come on. The 2003 ALCS game 7 is NOT the worst defeat in Sox history. Game 6 of the 1986 World Series is the clear worst…

 

Yes.

[mvp 78]

whatsamatter notin, don't you get your news from FOX? Ruth/Dent/Buckner/Boone are one long continuous narrative. They still try to revive that s*** whenever they feature NY vs Bos. Unfortunately, casual viewers half our ages only know that the Red Sox have won the most World Series this century.

 

... and '03 was the worst as a last straw accumulation of angst for long-suffering fans who couldn't take it any more.

 

Losing game 3 in 2004 ALCS was the best thing to happen to my psyche in that playoffs.

[mvp 78]

1986 > 2003 > Sept 2011 > Aug 2021 > 2008 ALCS (which I barely even remember)

[Bellhorn04]

1986 > 2003 > Sept 2011 > Aug 2021 > 2008 ALCS (which I barely even remember)

 

Establishes your age.

[mvp 78]

Establishes your age.

 

The 1978 game was most likely on when I was in the room and while every other Sox fan was s***ing their pants that day, at least I had a diaper on.

[moonslav59]

To me, the game 7 loss in '75 was the worst. I was a teen, and after game 6, it hurt the most.

 

The '78 play-in game with the Yanks was probably #2, but game 6 of '86 is close.

 

While the 2003 loss was very bad and just added to the long-standing grief, somehow the fact that I expected us to lose made it easier to handle than the other.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The 1978 game was most likely on when I was in the room and while every other Sox fan was s***ing their pants that day, at least I had a diaper on.

 

I lived it, and at the time '78 had the worst outcome of the one game I cared more about than any in my life. But by '03, so many more Yankee fans had crawled out of their lairs to hammer us with their entitlement, new generations like children of gang members or terrorists, indoctrinated and defined by our misery. Even Remy said '03 was the worst, and he actually played (well) in the '78 game.