Red Sox Sign Marwin Gonzalez

[notin]

That is what I am talking about notin and you know that I am serious.

 

I assumed sarcasm as you do have a past strongly advocating for Dombrowski's methodology...

[Bellhorn04]

They did have more room, but both that does not mean the existing deals to Price and Eovaldi had no impact...

 

Everything has an impact. But the 68 million to Eovaldi is a drop in the bucket for a franchise that threw away 255 million on Pablo, Hanley and Castillo. And both of those contracts only had 2 more runs to run at the start of Mookie's new contract. It just doesn't add up to preventing the Boston Red Sox from keeping one of the best players in history.

[notin]

Everything has an impact. But the 68 million to Eovaldi is a drop in the bucket for a franchise that threw away 255 million on Pablo, Hanley and Castillo. And both of those contracts only had 2 more runs to run at the start of Mookie's new contract. It just doesn't add up to preventing the Boston Red Sox from keeping one of the best players in history.

 

Those contracts also obviously impacted the situation, too.

 

Mookie's demands were ofty, but there is also some suggestion that negotiating was possible. Reportedly, he nearly accepted a $200mill offer until his mother told him not to settle. So then suddenly leapt to a firm $400mill and would not budge?

 

But at some point, even if thy could talk him down a few million, the money being spent was crazy, and Henry closed the checkbook.

[Nick]

Turns out he can’t hit when he doesn’t know what’s coming

 

Pretty funny.....I would like to hear one player come out and say, "yeah that homer I hit against the Yankees, I knew what pitch was coming, I was looking for it". Nope nobody has guts to say it.

[Bellhorn04]

Those contracts also obviously impacted the situation, too.

 

Mookie's demands were ofty, but there is also some suggestion that negotiating was possible. Reportedly, he nearly accepted a $200mill offer until his mother told him not to settle. So then suddenly leapt to a firm $400mill and would not budge?

 

But at some point, even if thy could talk him down a few million, the money being spent was crazy, and Henry closed the checkbook.

 

I'm guessing here, but I think the $200 mill offer for 8 years came after the 2016 season, with 4 years left before free agency.

 

But yeah, it seems Mookie's mother kind of did us in.

[Nick]

These deals weren't meant to get us to the top.

 

They are all short term deals to bide time while our farm gets stronger and deeper.

 

We may be able to deal a few of them at the deadline, of if everything gels, we make the playoffs and have some excitement as we do it allover again, next winter- hopefully with a better idea of what we have on the farm, and a lot more money to spend to the top after the cliff.

 

Bloom has added a lot of farm pieces, a few high ceiling gambles, and some decent players that have options for 2022 and EHern signed for a whopping 2 years.

 

If the plan is to go over the tax line, next winter- maybe by $19M, our options and choices will be way different from this winter's bridge signings.

 

This is about being somewhat respectable, this year, while not damaging our long term outlook and even enhancing it.

 

Some of the crap may stick, and we bring em back. Some will be gone.

 

We'll be much better in 2022.

 

I agree with everything you're saying. We'll have clearer picture (I hope) after this year on what to do next. To me, every deal is bolstering our organization. I rather the team have flexibility as opposed to getting bogged down with unfavorable contracts.

[Bellhorn04]

Pretty funny.....I would like to hear one player come out and say, "yeah that homer I hit against the Yankees, I knew what pitch was coming, I was looking for it". Nope nobody has guts to say it.

 

Omerta.

[notin]

Pretty funny.....I would like to hear one player come out and say, "yeah that homer I hit against the Yankees, I knew what pitch was coming, I was looking for it". Nope nobody has guts to say it.

 

Well, they do if they guess right and there was no signaling involved. That does happen...

[mvp 78]

I'm guessing here, but I think the $200 mill offer for 8 years came after the 2016 season, with 4 years left before free agency.

 

But yeah, it seems Mookie's mother kind of did us in.

 

Now we're throwing her under the bus? This is the darkest timeline.

[cp176]

I assumed sarcasm as you do have a past strongly advocating for Dombrowski's methodology...

 

It's not that I am enamored of his methodology so much, I just like to win. Or I actually should qualify that and say I like a team that keeps my interest level up throughout the summer months. I have never been a wait til next year kind of guy which does seem to be an attitude that I have seen here. Continued non stop bitching about what someone thinks someone else did in the past doesn't work for me.

[mvp 78]

It's not that I am enamored of his methodology so much, I just like to win. Or I actually should qualify that and say I like a team that keeps my interest level up throughout the summer months. I have never been a wait til next year kind of guy which does seem to be an attitude that I have seen here. Continued non stop bitching about what someone thinks someone else did in the past doesn't work for me.

 

The only good thing about 2020's season was that it was a break from the pandemic nonsense and a shorter season so the pain was more bearable. I think a .500 season may actually hurt worse this go around. We'll be much more invested in the season anyway.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Now we're throwing her under the bus? This is the darkest timeline.

 

Don't let his uncle, Terry Shumpert, off the hook, either. He had feedback on playing in Boston back in the 90s, during the Duquette-Kevin Kennedy days, when his paycheck was only in the hundred-thousands...

[notin]

It's not that I am enamored of his methodology so much, I just like to win. Or I actually should qualify that and say I like a team that keeps my interest level up throughout the summer months. I have never been a wait til next year kind of guy which does seem to be an attitude that I have seen here. Continued non stop bitching about what someone thinks someone else did in the past doesn't work for me.

 

I want to see the team competitive every year, but when Dombrowski took over - and I was saying this even back on BDC, the 2020 season as an inevitability, because his methods are good for short term success but not for sustained success and eventually it will be time to pay the piper. The Tigers still have not recovered from his methods.

 

THe problem with the "high payroll / invest heavy in free agents / scrap the farm system" method is that while winning short term is no guarantee, losing long term is. He did win a title in Boston, but Detroit was a lot less lucky...

[notin]

Don't let his uncle, Terry Shumpert, off the hook, either. He had feedback on playing in Boston back in the 90s, during the Duquette-Kevin Kennedy days, when his paycheck was only in the hundred-thousands...

 

I hope Uncle Terry (not really his uncle, more like a first cousin once removed - Terry is his mother's cousin) is the salary he made in Boston was the highest of his career and common for a utility infielder at the time, which Terry was at that stage of his career...

[mvp 78]

Don't let his uncle, Terry Shumpert, off the hook, either. He had feedback on playing in Boston back in the 90s, during the Duquette-Kevin Kennedy days, when his paycheck was only in the hundred-thousands...

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/terry-shumpert/449/stats?position=2B

 

I only remember Shumpert from his Royals days. A worse player than I remember who had a career that went way too long.

[mvp 78]

I want to see the team competitive every year, but when Dombrowski took over - and I was saying this even back on the place that should not be mentioned, the 2020 season as an inevitability, because his methods are good for short term success but not for sustained success and eventually it will be time to pay the piper. The Tigers still have not recovered from his methods.

 

THe problem with the "high payroll / invest heavy in free agents / scrap the farm system" method is that while winning short term is no guarantee, losing long term is. He did win a title in Boston, but Detroit was a lot less lucky...

 

The problem wasn't 2018. The problem was 2019. That's why we're here.

[Nick]

If the stars align...for near future we have

 

Verdugo 25 2021 2022 2023 2024

Devers 24 2021 2022 2023

Dalbec 26 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026

Enrique 29 2021 2022

Renfroe 29 2021 2022 2023

Cordero 26 2021 2022 2023

Xander 28 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026

Vazquez 30 2021 2022

Chavis 25 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025

 

Sale 32 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025

Eovaldi 31 2021 2022

Richards 33 2021 2022

Pivetta 28 2021 2022 2023 2024

Darwin 24 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025

Tanner 25 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026

Mata 21 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026 2027

Seabold 25 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026 2027

E Rod 28 2021

 

With a reasonably successful 2021, we can extend E Rod and sign a big piece, do a deal similar to Brauer, big money, short term. I'm talking about going over the limit by $39M. Pedey money comes off, last year of Price money (2022), If Rdichards has a good year, maybe trade for younger pitchers and use his money to go get a #1 starter. Ottavino money comes off too.

 

I think we need to see what we got with couple of our younger guys in 2021.

[notin]

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/terry-shumpert/449/stats?position=2B

 

I only remember Shumpert from his Royals days. A worse player than I remember who had a career that went way too long.

 

He really only did anything in Colorado. But he has managed a decent career as a minor league coach.

 

His kid Nick (Mookie's second cousin) was apparently recently signed by the Dodgers...

[notin]

The problem wasn't 2018. The problem was 2019. That's why we're here.

 

The problem was the success was very short-lived. 3 seasons. Even the Tigers got 4 pennants under Dombrowski...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

These deals weren't meant to get us to the top.

 

They are all short term deals to bide time while our farm gets stronger and deeper.

 

Bloom has added a lot of farm pieces, a few high ceiling gambles, and some decent players that have options for 2022 and EHern signed for a whopping 2 years.

 

If the plan is to go over the tax line, next winter- maybe by $19M, our options and choices will be way different from this winter's bridge signings.

 

This is about being somewhat respectable, this year, while not damaging our long term outlook and even enhancing it.

 

We'll be much better in 2022.

 

When I read this I thought two things: if we'll be much better in '22, that means 1) we'll be much worse this year than next; and 2) we'll have to hope improvements come from players already in the organization -- especially a successful comeback by Sale (since a successful comeback from ERod in '21 probably means he'll already have been flipped for prospects), and promotions to Downs, Duran and Mata, at least.

 

I also consider "the whopping 2 years" for EHern as an important benchmark for the Bloom era. When/If he ever signs or extends someone for three or more years, that will be a signal to fans -- and players -- that the front office considers the Sox finally good enough again to go for it... and as a salute and/or plea to keep caring.

[mvp 78]

If the stars align...

 

Verdugo 25 2021 2022 2023 2024

Devers 24 2021 2022 2023

Dalbec 26 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026

Enrique 29 2021 2022

Renfroe 29 2021 2022 2023

Cordero 26 2021 2022 2023

Xander 28 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026

Vazquez 30 2021 2022

Chavis 25 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025

 

Sale 32 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025

Eovaldi 31 2021 2022

Richards 33 2021 2022

Pivetta 28 2021 2022 2023 2024

Darwin 24 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025

Tanner 25 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026

Mata 21 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026 2027

Seabold 25 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026 2027

E Rod 28 2021

 

With a reasonably successful 2021, we can extend E Rod and sign a big piece, do a deal similar to Brauer, big money, short term. I'm talking about going over the limit by $39M. Pedey money comes off, last year of Price money (2022), If Rdichards has a good year, maybe trade for younger pitchers and use his money to go get a #1 starter. Ottavino money comes off too.

 

I think we need to see what we got with couple of our younger guys in 2021.

 

Stars aligning would actually include Casas, Duran and Downs being ready for the bigs sooner than later.

 

1b: Casas

2b: Downs

SS: Xander

3b: Devers

RF: Verdugo

CF: Duran

LF: Renfroe/Cordero

DH: Dalbec

 

That could be a fun lineup if the young guys are ready.

[mvp 78]

The problem was the success was very short-lived. 3 seasons. Even the Tigers got 4 pennants under Dombrowski...

 

How many titles did those Tigers teams get?

[mvp 78]

Also, all the Tigers had to do was keep Scherzer and Verlander and they would have been fine. Never should have let them walk out the door.

[notin]

Also, all the Tigers had to do was keep Scherzer and Verlander and they would have been fine. Never should have let them walk out the door.

 

Well, they did finish last in 2015 with a full season of Verlander...

[cp176]

I want to see the team competitive every year, but when Dombrowski took over - and I was saying this even back on BDC, the 2020 season as an inevitability, because his methods are good for short term success but not for sustained success and eventually it will be time to pay the piper. The Tigers still have not recovered from his methods.

 

THe problem with the "high payroll / invest heavy in free agents / scrap the farm system" method is that while winning short term is no guarantee, losing long term is. He did win a title in Boston, but Detroit was a lot less lucky...

 

I've moved on. None of the deals done to date this year give me the quivers.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Also, all the Tigers had to do was keep Scherzer and Verlander and they would have been fine. Never should have let them walk out the door.

 

Scherzer turned down a Tigers' offer that would've made him one of the highest paid players in the game, then signed for even more the next year in Washington. I say we can all blame our problems on Max, since Dombro made certain he wouldn't let Price, Sale and Eovaldi get away...

[moonslav59]

I agree with everything you're saying. We'll have clearer picture (I hope) after this year on what to do next. To me, every deal is bolstering our organization. I rather the team have flexibility as opposed to getting bogged down with unfavorable contracts.

 

YES! Flexible is the right word to use.

 

Nothing we did, this winter, ties us down long term.

[notin]

Also, all the Tigers had to do was keep Scherzer and Verlander and they would have been fine. Never should have let them walk out the door.

 

He might have hampered their ability to keep Scherzer with his insane contract for Miguel Cabrera, which still has the Tigers paying him another $94 million over the next 3 season. His extension to Verlander was also looking pretty questionable by 2015, but Verlander did certainly justify it since then.

 

But Dombrowski did not help their cause by being on the wrong side making one of the most underrated lopsided trades in history when he dealt Eugenio Suarez for Alfredo Simon...

[notin]

I've moved on. None of the deals done to date this year give me the quivers.

 

And none of them should on their own. So far, Bloom has acquired a bunch of supplementary pieces at best. But then he is clearly not working with a limitless budget...

[moonslav59]

Well, they did finish last in 2015 with a full season of Verlander...

 

...and how could they afford Miggy, Verlander & Scherzer?

Edited February 12, 2021 by moonslav59