Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[notin]

Well, the final 2 years of Price's deal fall in the first 2 years of Mookie's deal. So it was a hindrance, but not a huge obstacle IMHO.

 

I'm sure other "hindrances" could have been avoided.

 

There was no reason to bring Eovaldi back, for example. And it has been a massive flop.

 

Of course, even if the Sox saved that $285mill does not mean they would have tied it all up and then some in Betts. The 2013 team did teach us that spreading the money around a little can be very successful in itself...

[mvp 78]

I'm sure other "hindrances" could have been avoided.

 

There was no reason to bring Eovaldi back, for example. And it has been a massive flop.

 

Of course, even if the Sox saved that $285mill does not mean they would have tied it all up and then some in Betts. The 2013 team did teach us that spreading the money around a little can be very successful in itself...

 

ThAt WaS a FlUkE!

[notin]

ThAt WaS a FlUkE!

 

No. That was KOJI-RIFFIC!!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

For all the good Henry has done for the sox, his desire to spend has been somewhat mercurial.

 

Does anyone really expect an old kajillionaire to suddenly not change his habits of changing? Unless the pandemic lingers and significantly alters pro sports industries (and Henry is secretly preparing to sell), then Red Sox fans concerned with payroll balance, taxes, and roster-crippling contracts shouldn't be surprised when Boston goes all out spending huge on a big-name free agent in the next two or three years.

 

Regrettably, it won't be on Betts, whose personality and physical skills have been nothing but great his entire career. But for many reasons previously posted, including the turnstiles and cost of living increases, some other lucky "superstar" will inevitably sign with the Sox for what many will view as ghastly amounts -- in both dollars and years.

[notin]

For all the good Henry has done for the sox, his desire to spend has been somewhat mercurial.

 

Does anyone really expect an old kajillionaire to suddenly not change his habits of changing? Unless the pandemic lingers and significantly alters pro sports industries (and Henry is secretly preparing to sell), then Red Sox fans concerned with payroll balance, taxes, and roster-crippling contracts shouldn't be surprised when Boston goes all out spending huge on a big-name free agent in the next two or three years.

 

Regrettably, it won't be on Betts, whose personality and physical skills have been nothing but great his entire career. But for many reasons previously posted, including the turnstiles and cost of living increases, some other lucky "superstar" will inevitably sign with the Sox for what many will view as ghastly amounts -- in both dollars and years.

 

I expect him to suddenly change his spending habits. In fact, I expect him to do so multiple times.

 

That's what he has been doing all along, which I summed up in the remainder of my post...

[mvp 78]

I expect him to suddenly change his spending habits. In fact, I expect him to do so multiple times. Don't you?

 

That's what he has been doing all along, which I summed up in the remainder of my post...

 

2002 - 2004 spend to break curse

2005 pull back from extending long term older players

2006 - 2011 grow farm while spending

2012 - pull back from bad contracts

2013 add new contracts

2014a get rid of long term guys!

2014b sign old guys for no reason whatsoever!

2015 - 2019 run with younger players in arb years and supplement roster through trades and FA signings

2020 - course correction again

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I expect him to suddenly change his spending habits. In fact, I expect him to do so multiple times.

 

That's what he has been doing all along, which I summed up in the remainder of my post...

 

Yup, which really irks me as a fan, if we lost our best player because of one of the owner's mood swings. But back to the title of the thread, I've always been of the opinion that Mookie ultimately wanted out. Henry's words last fall -- wondering "whether Mookie wants to spend the rest of his career in Boston" -- and after the trade (his Stan Musial nostalgia) reveal, at least to me, he wanted to keep Betts and was frustrated he couldn't.

[Donnie Sadler was short]

WOW...3 pages of comments on why Mookie was traded & not one said...BECAUSE...HE...WASNT...GOING...TO....RESIGN...HERE.... Thats why. End of story.

[Bellhorn04]

WOW...3 pages of comments on why Mookie was traded & not one said...BECAUSE...HE...WASNT...GOING...TO....RESIGN...HERE.... Thats why. End of story.

 

It was reported that when the Red Sox made an offer of $310 million, Mookie's side countered with $420 million, and that was the end of "negotiations".

 

We'll never know if the Red Sox could have signed him for a lower amount, but it seems a fair assumption that lower amount would not have been much lower than $400 million.

[notin]

It was reported that when the Red Sox made an offer of $310 million, Mookie's side countered with $420 million, and that was the end of "negotiations".

 

We'll never know if the Red Sox could have signed him for a lower amount, but it seems a fair assumption that lower amount would not have been much lower than $400 million.

 

Well, if the Sox and Mookie split the difference, we do know at $365 million, money was no longer an obstacle...

[Bellhorn04]

Well, if the Sox and Mookie split the difference, we do know at $365 million, money was no longer an obstacle...

 

It is interesting that the 365 was the exact midpoint of the 310 and the 420.

 

The other thing we'll never know is how much impact the pandemic had on Mookie's thinking.

[Kimmi]

Well, if the Sox and Mookie split the difference, we do know at $365 million, money was no longer an obstacle...

 

Probably, but not necessarily. I think Mookie jumped at the Dodgers' offer with a huge sigh of relief.

[vegasbob]

Very little comment in the story or the comments on the very simple fact that the red Sox FO/Ownership concluded what should be more obvious to experienced people. Mookie did not want to be in Boston ( you guess why), and was never going to resign with the Sox as an FA after 2020. You can take all the accounting breakdown in the article and jam it. The RS got some value from a guy who was long gone after the worthless 2020 season.

[Kimmi]

Very little comment in the story or the comments on the very simple fact that the red Sox FO/Ownership concluded what should be more obvious to experienced people. Mookie did not want to be in Boston ( you guess why), and was never going to resign with the Sox as an FA after 2020. You can take all the accounting breakdown in the article and jam it. The RS got some value from a guy who was long gone after the worthless 2020 season.

 

I don't buy that Mookie did not want to be in Boston. I think now that he is with LA, he probably prefers that over Boston, but I don't believe that he would not have re-signed with Boston if the money was right. At the same time, once he was traded, I didn't see any way that he would be coming back.

 

Mookie was after the money, period. If the Sox had not traded him, then gave him the best offer during free agency, Mookie would have accepted. He would have possibly accepted an offer from the Sox before free agency if said offer made him the highest paid player in baseball. But I think the only reason he accepted the Dodgers' offer before free agency is because of the uncertainty brought about by the pandemic.

[Bellhorn04]

As far as I know, Mookie has never said one negative thing about playing in Boston. So any idea that he didn't like Boston seems like pure speculation.

[notin]

As far as I know, Mookie has never said one negative thing about playing in Boston. So any idea that he didn't like Boston seems like pure speculation.

 

While Mookie never did, he certainly heard lots of other African American ballplayers say them...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Very little comment in the story or the comments on the very simple fact that the red Sox FO/Ownership concluded what should be more obvious to experienced people. Mookie did not want to be in Boston ( you guess why), and was never going to resign with the Sox as an FA after 2020. You can take all the accounting breakdown in the article and jam it. The RS got some value from a guy who was long gone after the worthless 2020 season.

 

I'll always believe this, but lament the Red Sox approach to arbitration hearings that reportedly soured Mookie on staying...

 

The last great Red Sox player allowed to leave in his prime now regrets not playing his entire career in Boston: Fred Lynn, .902 OPS for the Red Sox through age 28 (when he hit .350 in Fenway), .799 OPS the rest of his career through age 38. In comparison, Betts had an .893 OPS in his Sox career.

 

People who loathe long-term contracts warn about a players' past-his-prime years, but I don't remember many -- if any -- fans bemoaning the final seasons of old warrior Carl Yastrzemski, who had a .768 OPS ages 40-43. Old Man Yaz may have slowed down past his prime, but was still productive age 33-39 with a slash of .282/.377/.446 (.823 OPS). In those years he had a 162-game average of 90 R, 21 HR, 94 RBI -- good numbers for the 1970s.

 

Few are superstars forever, but fandom always respects -- and deserves to root for -- a face of the franchise. New title thread for the next year or so (depending on when the Sox start spending again): Who Will Be the Next Red Sox Face of the Franchise?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

As far as I know, Mookie has never said one negative thing about playing in Boston. So any idea that he didn't like Boston seems like pure speculation.

 

A few years ago I saw an informal interview with JD, who mentioned that Boston media and fan scrutiny was unlike anywhere else; Mookie was off to the side and wholeheartedly agreed. That's when I started speculating...

[Bellhorn04]

While Mookie never did, he certainly heard lots of other African American ballplayers say them...

 

How many is "lots"?

[notin]

I'll always believe this, but lament the Red Sox approach to arbitration hearings that reportedly soured Mookie on staying...

 

The last great Red Sox player allowed to leave in his prime now regrets not playing his entire career in Boston: Fred Lynn, .902 OPS for the Red Sox through age 28 (when he hit .350 in Fenway), .799 OPS the rest of his career through age 38. In comparison, Betts had an .893 OPS in his Sox career.

 

People who loathe long-term contracts warn about a players' past-his-prime years, but I don't remember many -- if any -- fans bemoaning the final seasons of old warrior Carl Yastrzemski, who had a .768 OPS ages 40-43. Old Man Yaz may have slowed down past his prime, but was still productive age 33-39 with a slash of .282/.377/.446 (.823 OPS). In those years he had a 162-game average of 90 R, 21 HR, 94 RBI -- good numbers for the 1970s.

 

Few are superstars forever, but fandom always respects -- and deserves to root for -- a face of the franchise. New title thread for the next year or so (depending on when the Sox start spending again): Who Will Be the Next Red Sox Face of the Franchise?

 

1) That approach is pretty standard.

 

2) The Sox did offer him $20 million and $25 million in the last two seasons. That’s gotta take some sting out of that hearing...

[Bellhorn04]

1) That approach is pretty standard.

 

How so?

 

I don't follow other teams arbitration situations much, but I know the Red Sox have had very few contentious arbitrations and usually avoid them altogether.

 

Plus we're talking about a caliber of player (and consequently high arbitration value) that's not even seen very often.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1) That approach is pretty standard.

 

2) The Sox did offer him $20 million and $25 million in the last two seasons. That’s gotta take some sting out of that hearing...

 

Not if the Red Sox presented Mookie with a video of Kris Bryant, as reported by Michael Holley, to imply he wasn't as good or as deserving of a higher salary. Not only is such a gesture disrespectful, but it's factually false by metrics -- Bryant's career bWAR 23.7 by age 28, Mookie's career bWAR is 44.8 and he's still 27.

[harmony]

One analysis of Mookie Betts' departure:

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/sports/nbcsports/the-real-story-behind-mookie-betts-departure-from-the-red-sox/2168748/

 

On a tangentially related subject:

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/mookie-betts-humbled-dodgers-support-044943620.html

Edited September 6, 2020 by harmony

[Fan_since_Boggs]

The Red Sox did try to resign him but 300 million wasn't enough for Mookie. He was going to test free agency, the Red Sox wanted to get something for him rather than lose him for nothing but draft compensation. Mookie wouldn't have made a difference for the 2020 Red Sox, this team never had enough pitching, and so if you keep Mookie in Boston in 2020, it would have been a wasted year with a star player. And by moving Mookie, the Red Sox could dump Price and get under the luxury tax threshold.

 

It was a sound move. Sure, Mookie is great and will be great over the next few seasons, but he isn't worth 380 million and the contract will be counter-productive over the long term. I would rather spend money on pitching. The Red Sox need pitching and they now have the payroll flexibility to go out and get pitching.

 

Why did the Dodgers give Mookie 380 million while the Red Sox concluded that was too much? The Dodgers are more desperate than the Red Sox. The Red Sox have won 4 championships in the 20th Century; the Dodgers haven't won since the Kirk Gibson thing. I trust the Red Sox's judgment on this, but if the Dodgers get a championship out of it, no one will fault them when Betts' skills & numbers decline in the not-too-distant future.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Bellhorn04]

One analysis of Mookie Betts' departure:

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/sports/nbcsports/the-real-story-behind-mookie-betts-departure-from-the-red-sox/2168748/

 

On a tangentially related subject:

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/mookie-betts-humbled-dodgers-support-044943620.html

 

Certainly can't rule this stuff out as a factor, unfortunately.

[Bellhorn04]

The Red Sox did try to resign him but 300 million wasn't enough for Mookie. He was going to test free agency, the Red Sox wanted to get something for him rather than lose him for nothing but draft compensation. Mookie wouldn't have made a difference for the 2020 Red Sox, this team never had enough pitching, and so if you keep Mookie in Boston in 2020, it would have been a wasted year with a star player. And by moving Mookie, the Red Sox could dump Price and get under the luxury tax threshold.

 

It was a sound move. Sure, Mookie is great and will be great over the next few seasons, but he isn't worth 380 million and the contract will be counter-productive over the long term. I would rather spend money on pitching. The Red Sox need pitching and they now have the payroll flexibility to go out and get pitching.

 

Why did the Dodgers give Mookie 380 million while the Red Sox concluded that was too much? The Dodgers are more desperate than the Red Sox. The Red Sox have won 4 championships in the 20th Century; the Dodgers haven't won since the Kirk Gibson thing. I trust the Red Sox's judgment on this, but if the Dodgers get a championship out of it, no one will fault them when Betts' skills & numbers decline in the not-too-distant future.

 

If Mookie stays healthy, he could be productive for 7-8 years of the deal IMO. Staying healthy is the big if.

[notin]

How many is "lots"?

 

If its one, its too many...

[notin]

How so?

 

I don't follow other teams arbitration situations much, but I know the Red Sox have had very few contentious arbitrations and usually avoid them altogether.

 

Plus we're talking about a caliber of player (and consequently high arbitration value) that's not even seen very often.

 

If a player's contract goes to arbitration, the team has to somehow concoct an argument that said player is NOT worth the money he is asking for. Using another player as a comp is not uncommon. There is really no way to do ti without creating an argument that the player is going to like and agree with. This type of argument the Sox created is inherent in the process, but the Boston press makes it sound like they were the first team ever to do such a thing.

 

Like every other player to come to arbitration was met with "We say you're only worth $X", and then replied with "OK, you got me."

[dgalehouse]

We all have a tendency to look too deeply into things . Anytime Mookie was asked about it , he said he liked playing in Boston, but wanted to see what free agency had to offer . I think he was being honest. Sox ownership had decided to limit their spending, so they opted to trade Mookie for the best deal they could find . That was pretty much the end of it . They were not going to bid against the Dodgers after that . Mookie liked it in L.A. and took the Dodgers's offer . Whether the pandemic had anything to do with it is something we do not know. Obviously, the Sox are not as good a team without Mookie. Life goes on.

[Kimmi]

I'll always believe this, but lament the Red Sox approach to arbitration hearings that reportedly soured Mookie on staying...

 

The last great Red Sox player allowed to leave in his prime now regrets not playing his entire career in Boston: Fred Lynn, .902 OPS for the Red Sox through age 28 (when he hit .350 in Fenway), .799 OPS the rest of his career through age 38. In comparison, Betts had an .893 OPS in his Sox career.

 

People who loathe long-term contracts warn about a players' past-his-prime years, but I don't remember many -- if any -- fans bemoaning the final seasons of old warrior Carl Yastrzemski, who had a .768 OPS ages 40-43. Old Man Yaz may have slowed down past his prime, but was still productive age 33-39 with a slash of .282/.377/.446 (.823 OPS). In those years he had a 162-game average of 90 R, 21 HR, 94 RBI -- good numbers for the 1970s.

 

Few are superstars forever, but fandom always respects -- and deserves to root for -- a face of the franchise. New title thread for the next year or so (depending on when the Sox start spending again): Who Will Be the Next Red Sox Face of the Franchise?

 

I have agreed with you that the arbitration hearings might have soured Mookie a little, but not to the point where Mookie would not re-sign here if he were offered enough money. Also, all arbitration hearings are like that. It is the job of the Sox representative to convince the arbitration committee that Mookie should get the team's amount rather than the player's amount. I have read that most of those hearings are rather ugly. If Mookie truly understands that baseball is a business, then his decision should not have been affected by that.

 

Do we have to have one superstar to root for as the Face of the Franchise? How about having a great team to root for instead?