Listened To Pedey on WEEI annmnnnnnd

[Swiharts Ghost]

Pedey is not DHing that right there is nuts in itself .JD is a guy with No range No awareness on contact .Pedey Plays 2nd or plays the pine .JD either DHs or I'm letting him play home games in LF not Right .That's my plan for the 2 men .I do think JD could be a Manny type in Left

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The thing is: everyone drops a ball in the outfield once in awhile -- we're all human and susceptible to losing one in the sun or the lights or the infamous gloaming...

 

It sucks, but it happens. Luckily, even bad outfielders can stand around for innings and innings without getting a ball hit in their direction. But a first baseman who misses throws kills a defense. Those lost "automatic" outs are such a downer, and put more pressure on the other infielders to make perfect throws, and ultimately stress the pitcher, who may strain his arm trying to strike everybody out.

 

Consider just from a spectator point-of-view -- what's more ugh-worthy: a baserunner going first to third on a misplayed ball by the rightfielder... or on a pick-off throw that eludes the first baseman and bounces down the foul line?

[notin]

But then the overwhelming majority of players made by a 1b are on throws that the thrower intended him to catch. No other position has this advantage to this degree. Most first baseman don’t come up playing the position; they end up there. As slasher said, 1b is where oldmajor leaguers go to die..,

[Slasher9]

The thing is: everyone drops a ball in the outfield once in awhile -- we're all human and susceptible to losing one in the sun or the lights or the infamous gloaming...

 

It sucks, but it happens. Luckily, even bad outfielders can stand around for innings and innings without getting a ball hit in their direction. But a first baseman who misses throws kills a defense. Those lost "automatic" outs are such a downer, and put more pressure on the other infielders to make perfect throws, and ultimately stress the pitcher, who may strain his arm trying to strike everybody out.

 

Consider just from a spectator point-of-view -- what's more ugh-worthy: a baserunner going first to third on a misplayed ball by the rightfielder... or on a pick-off throw that eludes the first baseman and bounces down the foul line?

 

there is not an easier out in baseball then a flyball. just look at the %es. flyballs are automatic outs. groundballs are not.

if we are worried about JD catching a ball thrown directly to him then he probably wouldnt have made it past high school baseball (if even).

i want my outfielders to run down and catch everything in the field of play. i am OK with my below average 1bman not scooping every throw in the dirt.

[Bellhorn04]

there is not an easier out in baseball then a flyball. just look at the %es. flyballs are automatic outs. groundballs are not.

if we are worried about JD catching a ball thrown directly to him then he probably wouldnt have made it past high school baseball (if even).

i want my outfielders to run down and catch everything in the field of play. i am OK with my below average 1bman not scooping every throw in the dirt.

 

But let's not forget that there are plenty of ways for poor first basemen to f*** up other than not being good scoopers.

[notin]

But let's not forget that there are plenty of ways for poor first basemen to f*** up other than not being good scoopers.

 

 

But the conventional baseball wisdom still says 1b is the easiest defensive position. If you disagree with this, what position is easier?

[moonslav59]

But the conventional baseball wisdom still says 1b is the easiest defensive position. If you disagree with this, what position is easier?

 

It's usually less of a team disadvantage to have a big, slow player play 1B rather than OF, but that doesn't mean it's easier. (Is it easier for a fast and short player?)

 

It also depends on the player you are talking about.

 

If a player has played OF his whole life, one would think OF is easier and safer than 1B. How much of a defensive liability the player might be in comparison at each position also plays into the choice, but with JD, I think risk of injury might be the top factor in the choice.

[Slasher9]

But let's not forget that there are plenty of ways for poor first basemen to f*** up other than not being good scoopers.

 

the 10-12 games per season i have JD penciled in at 1b i am only expecting him to jog to the bag and catch throws from infielders. any of the other "first baseman" stuff i am giving him a "pass" on - balls in dirt, bunt coverage, cut 4's, throws up the line, flips to pitcher covering first, throws to 2b to try and doubleplay, etc.

[Slasher9]

, I think risk of injury might be the top factor in the choice.

 

blake swihart on line 2....

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

But the conventional baseball wisdom still says 1b is the easiest defensive position. If you disagree with this, what position is easier?

 

First basemen have a lot more responsibilities than corner outfielders -- by default, because of the much greater percentage of fielding chances. Of course, fast outfielders can be competent first basemen, while slow first basemen don't make decent outfielders. But good first basemen have to do more than just scoop; they have to make good throws all the time: starting the 3-6-3 DP, after pouncing on bunts, and maybe most importantly -- getting into position to take and make relays. Outfielders usually just have to hit the cutoff... while the first sacker is the cutoff, on two-thirds of the diamond with runners in scoring position.

 

Good teams can get by with mediocrity at first, but great first basemen can make good teams great. For example, Keith Hernandez was a defensive weapon, and it's no coincidence he won rings manning first for two different franchises (ok, maybe he was more offensive to Elaine).

[notin]

First basemen have a lot more responsibilities than corner outfielders -- by default, because of the much greater percentage of fielding chances. Of course, fast outfielders can be competent first basemen, while slow first basemen don't make decent outfielders. But good first basemen have to do more than just scoop; they have to make good throws all the time: starting the 3-6-3 DP, after pouncing on bunts, and maybe most importantly -- getting into position to take and make relays. Outfielders usually just have to hit the cutoff... while the first sacker is the cutoff, on two-thirds of the diamond with runners in scoring position.

 

Good teams can get by with mediocrity at first, but great first basemen can make good teams great. For example, Keith Hernandez was a defensive weapon, and it's no coincidence he won rings manning first for two different franchises (ok, maybe he was more offensive to Elaine).

 

1. Nice Seinfeld reference.

 

2. Plenty of teams have won titles with mediocre to bad 1b. Are you saying corner OF is easier? We saw Hanley Ramirez try both positions and was much better at 1b. RF especially is not easier than 1b, considering the throws involved. Saying "all you have to do is hit the cutoff man" is a massive understatement. Plenty of times, outfielders throw directly to bases, including home, and for a RF, the throw to third base is a particularly tough one. There is a reason Betts throw to third was a highlight. And while the plays might be infrequent, tracking down and catching a flyball that is over an outfielder's head is never an easy play, despite how Bradley and Betts make it look. And when those plays dont happen, it is a bad, bad thing all around.

 

There is a reason most inferior fielders get moved to 1b. Taking throws is simply easier than fielding batted balls. The first baseman takes a lot of throws. Everyone else has the overwhelming majority of their plays fielding batted balls. (Note: "Easiest" doesn't always mean "easy.")

 

REally, I would challenge you to name a good team that was made great by a good first baseman's glove. Hernandez won his first title with Ozzie Smith anchoring the infield. While I think Smith was an overrated defensive shortstop, that doesn't change the fact that he was still an outstanding defender (I just don't think he was the best ever at his position, and that he was inferior to Omar Vizquel) and his impact defensively was much greater than that of Hernandez...

Edited November 19, 2019 by notin

[illinoisredsox]

I have no problem with JD trying first base; if it works out, fine, if it doesn’t, oh well.

 

However, one condition; he should never, ever, ever play it with ERod on the mound.

[moonslav59]

I have no problem with JD trying first base; if it works out, fine, if it doesn’t, oh well.

 

However, one condition; he should never, ever, ever play it with ERod on the mound.

 

LoL

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1. Nice Seinfeld reference.

 

2. Plenty of teams have won titles with mediocre to bad 1b. Are you saying corner OF is easier? We saw Hanley Ramirez try both positions and was much better at 1b. RF especially is not easier than 1b, considering the throws involved. Saying "all you have to do is hit the cutoff man" is a massive understatement. Plenty of times, outfielders throw directly to bases, including home, and for a RF, the throw to third base is a particularly tough one. There is a reason Betts throw to third was a highlight. And while the plays might be infrequent, tracking down and catching a flyball that is over an outfielder's head is never an easy play, despite how Bradley and Betts make it look. And when those plays dont happen, it is a bad, bad thing all around.

 

There is a reason most inferior fielders get moved to 1b. Taking throws is simply easier than fielding batted balls. The first baseman takes a lot of throws. Everyone else has the overwhelming majority of their plays fielding batted balls. (Note: "Easiest" doesn't always mean "easy.")

 

REally, I would challenge you to name a good team that was made great by a good first baseman's glove. Hernandez won his first title with Ozzie Smith anchoring the infield. While I think Smith was an overrated defensive shortstop, that doesn't change the fact that he was still an outstanding defender (I just don't think he was the best ever at his position, and that he was inferior to Omar Vizquel) and his impact defensively was much greater than that of Hernandez...

 

I never said "all outfielders have to do is hit the cutoff" -- I said, "usually". I've played outfield for 50 years, and 99% of our throws are to a cut-off man: get rid of the ball quickly and accurately, and after that it's literally out of our hands. I would never say playing outfield is easier, because fast guys that can outrun flies or liners are a premium at any level.

 

But I've played some first base, too, and first basemen have more responsibilities because they're just more involved. I don't want anyone over there that I can't trust defensively. As for my admittedly general statement about the effects of a good first baseman -- this isn't a cop-out, but I don't know if there's a way (at least for me) to quantify it. I can't put numbers on how confidence translates to better play by third basemen, shortstops and second basemen when they know they don't have to be perfect with every throw, and that their guy is going to save them some Es every week.

 

But I bet the '04 Sox upped their killer instinct every time Doug M replaced Millar in late innings.

Hernandez certainly changed the way opposing teams strategized on offense because he nullified the sacrifice bunt (granted, it was NL in the 80s). But good first basemen are part of good defensive teams, and defense win pennants. Guys who transition well over to first have good hands (but maybe waning range), and teams have won pennants or rings with converted infielders, outfielders or catchers: Konerko, Spiezio, Daulton, Benzinger, Rose, Perez, Powell... Yaz.

 

And while it's true that some players go to die there, so does his team if he's someone clunky. Corny, but true.

[oldtimer]

I never said "all outfielders have to do is hit the cutoff" -- I said, "usually". I've played outfield for 50 years, and 99% of our throws are to a cut-off man: get rid of the ball quickly and accurately, and after that it's literally out of our hands. I would never say playing outfield is easier, because fast guys that can outrun flies or liners are a premium at any level.

 

But I've played some first base, too, and first basemen have more responsibilities because they're just more involved. I don't want anyone over there that I can't trust defensively. As for my admittedly general statement about the effects of a good first baseman -- this isn't a cop-out, but I don't know if there's a way (at least for me) to quantify it. I can't put numbers on how confidence translates to better play by third basemen, shortstops and second basemen when they know they don't have to be perfect with every throw, and that their guy is going to save them some Es every week.

 

But I bet the '04 Sox upped their killer instinct every time Doug M replaced Millar in late innings.

Hernandez certainly changed the way opposing teams strategized on offense because he nullified the sacrifice bunt (granted, it was NL in the 80s). But good first basemen are part of good defensive teams, and defense win pennants. Guys who transition well over to first have good hands (but maybe waning range), and teams have won pennants or rings with converted infielders, outfielders or catchers: Konerko, Spiezio, Daulton, Benzinger, Rose, Perez, Powell... Yaz.

 

And while it's true that some players go to die there, so does his team if he's someone clunky. Corny, but true.

 

Billy Buckner

[moonslav59]

Billy Buckner

 

Dave Stapleton

[Elktonnick]

Dave Stapleton

Dick Stuart

[cp176]

Dick Stuart

 

Hands of stone -

[Elktonnick]

Hands of stone -

 

All good reasons to keep JDM away from 1st except when he gets on base.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

How could I forget Youk? There's one that worked -- slid over to first, won Gold Glove, won World Series.

[Kimmi]

there is not an easier out in baseball then a flyball. just look at the %es. flyballs are automatic outs. groundballs are not.

if we are worried about JD catching a ball thrown directly to him then he probably wouldnt have made it past high school baseball (if even).

i want my outfielders to run down and catch everything in the field of play. i am OK with my below average 1bman not scooping every throw in the dirt.

 

I'm really not OK with a below average defensive first baseman. A great first baseman can make the rest of the infield look that much better. That said, if given the choice between having JD in the OF or having him at 1B, I'd opt for 1B.

[notin]

Guys who transition well over to first have good hands (but maybe waning range), and teams have won pennants or rings with converted infielders, outfielders or catchers: Konerko, Spiezio, Daulton, Benzinger, Rose, Perez, Powell... Yaz.

 

See, this argument falls apart with Konerko, who was a classic case of “can really hit. Where do we play him?” He washed out at catcher, third base, and outfield before finally minimizing the damage he could do by playing 1b.

 

And he’s not alone. Plenty of the 1b throughout MLB history play there because they can hit, but can’t field anywhere else (although some are just left-handed). Not every 1b is going to be a good one, but if JD plays the position for 10 games, how many wins will that actually cost the Sox?

 

And while it's true that some players go to die there, so does his team if he's someone clunky. Corny, but true.

 

Well yes, but is it fair to already disparage JD’s play at 1b as “clunky”? C’mon. Even Jose Offerman could play 1b well...

Edited November 20, 2019 by notin

[notin]

Billy Buckner

 

Buckner was an elite 1b...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

See, this argument falls apart with Konerko, who was a classic case of “can really hit. Where do we play him?” He washed out at catcher, third base, and outfield before finally minimizing the damage he could do by playing 1b.

 

And he’s not alone. Plenty of the 1b throughout MLB history play there because they can hit, but can’t field anywhere else (although some are just left-handed). Not every 1b is going to be a good one, but if JD plays the position for 10 games, how many wins will that actually cost the Sox?

 

 

Well yes, but is it fair to already disparage JD’s play at 1b as “clunky”? C’mon. Even Jose Offerman could play 1b well...

 

Notin, I was trying to agree with you that there were a lot of guys who have transitioned successfully to first... but I just don't want anything to do with JD anywhere on the field. What's the sense of 10 games anyway -- interleague? If he isn't going to platoon there with a couple other guys on a semi-regular basis he wouldn't be doing us any favors with a few cameos. I mean, even in the World Series in LA, all the MLB talk was about moving Mookie to second, never JD to first. Then Martinez misjudged a fly ball by about 30 feet, which luckily everyone forgot about since JD himself homered and then Sale made Machado go all serpentine like the snake that he is.

[moonslav59]

Remember when AGon played RF?

 

Now, that was funny!

[Bellhorn04]

And he’s not alone. Plenty of the 1b throughout MLB history play there because they can hit, but can’t field anywhere else (although some are just left-handed). Not every 1b is going to be a good one, but if JD plays the position for 10 games, how many wins will that actually cost the Sox?

 

I think the real question is, how much better off are we with JD playing 1B for 10 games vs. playing OF for 10 games.

[Slasher9]

I'm really not OK with a below average defensive first baseman. A great first baseman can make the rest of the infield look that much better. That said, if given the choice between having JD in the OF or having him at 1B, I'd opt for 1B.

 

yes, i agree. i was really referring to the dozen games per season that i would have JD play there.

[moonslav59]

I think the real question is, how much better off are we with JD playing 1B for 10 games vs. playing OF for 10 games.

 

I think it should just be 5-6 games- total on the field.

[notin]

yes, i agree. i was really referring to the dozen games per season that i would have JD play there.

 

I think the biggest factor will be who else is in the lineup. As of now, the team is incomplete.

 

When the Sox had Ortiz and AGon, they had to get creative to get both bats in the lineup in NL road games. But this team right now has no such problem. The internal candidates at 1b are Chavis and maybe Dalbec, and benching either for 9 games doesn't look like a big issue. In the outfield, Bradley is reportedly gone, so there is a huge question mark in CF. If Betts is also gone, that doubles the questions. The Sox don't have much in the way of internal solutions - Durran, Wilson and maybe (but probably not) Castillo. And the only external name mentioned so far (Jake Marisnick) doesn't represent a massive change in this status. If any of them were benched to put JD in the outfield for 9 games, I don't see that being a major issue. Even a worst case outfield of Martinez-Benintedi-Betts might have defensive issues, but that hardly guarantees losses every time they send them out there.

 

If JD plays the field in NL road games, where he plays is likely to be determined by whoever fills out the outfield and who winds up holding down 1b...

[Slasher9]

I think the biggest factor will be who else is in the lineup. As of now, the team is incomplete.

 

When the Sox had Ortiz and AGon, they had to get creative to get both bats in the lineup in NL road games. But this team right now has no such problem. The internal candidates at 1b are Chavis and maybe Dalbec, and benching either for 9 games doesn't look like a big issue. In the outfield, Bradley is reportedly gone, so there is a huge question mark in CF. If Betts is also gone, that doubles the questions. The Sox don't have much in the way of internal solutions - Durran, Wilson and maybe (but probably not) Castillo. And the only external name mentioned so far (Jake Marisnick) doesn't represent a massive change in this status. If any of them were benched to put JD in the outfield for 9 games, I don't see that being a major issue. Even a worst case outfield of Martinez-Benintedi-Betts might have defensive issues, but that hardly guarantees losses every time they send them out there.

 

If JD plays the field in NL road games, where he plays is likely to be determined by whoever fills out the outfield and who winds up holding down 1b...

 

agree 1 million percent. i have been simply advocating giving him some reps at 1b during ST / offseason in case he is needed there and all things being equal...(if we have the 3 b's in 2020) i would prefer xyz first baseman to sit during NL games to keep JDM in the lineup instead of weakening 1 or even 2 OF spots (when JBj sits and Beni moves to CF). plus i think there is less chance of injury playing 1b then corner OF.