Vasquez

[notin]

Agreed.

 

While I do think he is still the Sox best defensive catcher, thinking Sandy Leon is going to fix the rotation is like thinking a severed leg can be treated with a band aid...

[vegasbob]

This bulletin just in from Pawtucket : (Caution-SSS) Sandy Leon is hitting .133 ; OPS .321 with 2 singles in 15 SB's. Juan Centeno in very limited action is 4 for 6 , all singles. So nothing much to indicate a turnaround by millionaire Leon.

 

FWIW, (not much) Bryce Brentz is also 1 for 12 putting little pressure on Beni or Betts to get hot. On the other hand Mike Miller at SS is cranking up the volume at 7 for 18 (.389), with 2 doubles and a HR. What's that you say, we just signed a SS to a long extension ? Oh well another flameout at the AAA level. Honestly, a young developing prospect at Pawtucket has got to be discouraged when they look at the MLB team openings. I don't think Tzu Wei Lin will be the long term answer at second, and Sam Travis has not shown any breakthrough ability at first. Be nice to get a starting pitcher , Mike Sharwyn is 1-0 with a 3.18 ERA over 11 innings and a 1.06 WHIP

[notin]

Even if Brentz was 16 for 16 with 16 HRs, I don’t think it effects Betts or Benintendi one bit...

[notin]

This bulletin just in from Pawtucket : (Caution-SSS) Sandy Leon is hittting .133 ; OPS .321 with 2 singles in 15 SB's. Juan Centeno in very limited action is 4 for 6 , all singles. So nothing much to indicate a turnaround by millionaire Leon.

 

FWIW, (not much) Bryce Brentz is also 1 for 12 putting little pressure on Beni or Betts to get hot. On the other hand Mike Miller at SS is cranking up the volume at 7 for 18 (.389), with 2 doubles and a HR. What's that you say, we just signed a SS to a long extension ? Oh well another flameout at the AAA level. Honestly, a young developing prospect at Pawtucket has got to be discouraged when they look at the MLB team openings. I don't think Tzu Wei Lin will be the long term answer at second, and Sam Travis has not shown any breakthrough ability at first. Be nice to get a starting pitcher , Mike Sharwyn is 1-0 with a 3.18 ERA over 11 innings and a 1.06 WHIP

 

 

I don’t think 29yo Mike Miller and his career minor league .668 OPS was ever a threat to supplant Xander Bogaerts.

 

Lin is a utility infielder at best and Travis is a replacement level player who gets the call only when someone hits the IL so he can, well, replace them temporarily. His future will include a DFA at some point...

[vegasbob]

Even if Brentz was 16 for 16 with 16 HRs, I don’t think it effects Betts or Benintendi one bit...

 

Sarcasm, one more service provided for free.

[notin]

Sarcasm, one more service provided for free.

 

Please provide a billing address. Thank you.

 

Also, 30yo Bryce Brentz is simply not a major leaguer...

[mvp 78]

This bulletin just in from Pawtucket : (Caution-SSS) Sandy Leon is hitting .133 ; OPS .321 with 2 singles in 15 SB's. Juan Centeno in very limited action is 4 for 6 , all singles. So nothing much to indicate a turnaround by millionaire Leon.

 

FWIW, (not much) Bryce Brentz is also 1 for 12 putting little pressure on Beni or Betts to get hot. On the other hand Mike Miller at SS is cranking up the volume at 7 for 18 (.389), with 2 doubles and a HR. What's that you say, we just signed a SS to a long extension ? Oh well another flameout at the AAA level. Honestly, a young developing prospect at Pawtucket has got to be discouraged when they look at the MLB team openings. I don't think Tzu Wei Lin will be the long term answer at second, and Sam Travis has not shown any breakthrough ability at first. Be nice to get a starting pitcher , Mike Sharwyn is 1-0 with a 3.18 ERA over 11 innings and a 1.06 WHIP

 

Nobody cares about Leon's hitting

[Bellhorn04]

In the long history of baseball , has so much attention ever been given to a player as pedestrian as Sandy Leon ? Our ultra high priced starting pitchers just can't live without him ?

 

Have you missed all the Mirabelli references?

[mvp 78]

In the long history of baseball , has so much attention ever been given to a player as pedestrian as Sandy Leon ? Our ultra high priced starting pitchers just can't live without him ?

 

Every year, people fall in love with the 26th man on the roster.

[moonslav59]

Nobody cares about Leon's hitting

 

Some seem to.

 

I keep hearing how others have higher offensive "potential," but I;m not sure any of our catchers will ever duplicate Leon's 2017 season of an .845 OPS.

 

Potential is one thing, but actually doing it is another.

 

(Note: I like Swihart and Vaz's bat better, but I'm with MVP. I don't care about catcher hitting.)

[mvp 78]

Some seem to.

 

I keep hearing how others have higher offensive "potential," but I;m not sure any of our catchers will ever duplicate Leon's 2017 season of an .845 OPS.

 

Potential is one thing, but actually doing it is another.

 

(Note: I like Swihart and Vaz's bat better, but I'm with MVP. I don't care about catcher hitting.)

 

I want Vaz to take the job and run with it, but he never has been able to. If Swihart's CERA is similar to Vaz's this year, I'd say dump Vaz.

[Slasher9]

I honestly don't like Vazquez that much, but I seriously doubt he is the problem with the rotation. For these reasons--

 

1. He was the primary catcher last year, and the staff did fine.

2. This year the bullpen hasn't had the same problem as the rotation. In fact, far from it.

3. Indeed, by far the best pitched game this season was the only game in which none of the five starters threw a single pitch.

4. DD, Cora, and the pitching coach must have all agreed to retain Vasquez as the primary catcher even though it means paying Leon $2.5M to be in Pawtucket (after first putting him on waivers).

5. Speaking of which, why didn't any of the other 29 MLB teams pick up the greatest catcher in Sox history, Sandy Leon? Maybe because he really ain't that great--or ain't worth that $2.5M salary.

 

#1 FALSE

2018 GS

Leon = 78

Vaz = 67

 

#5

Players pass through waivers all the time.

[moonslav59]

#1 FALSE

2018 GS

Leon = 78

Vaz = 67

 

#5

Players pass through waivers all the time.

 

#1One could argue Vaz was the starter. Leon caught more games only because Vaz got hurt.

 

Vaz also started almost every playoff game.

 

#5 Maybe teams did not want to pay Leon, but still wanted him.

[kenmeister]

Be nice to get a starting pitcher , Mike Sharwyn is 1-0 with a 3.18 ERA over 11 innings and a 1.06 WHIP

 

I believe Dallas Keuchel is still out there. Which is absurb.

[Slasher9]

#1One could argue Vaz was the starter. Leon caught more games only because Vaz got hurt.

 

Vaz also started almost every playoff game.

 

#5 Maybe teams did not want to pay Leon, but still wanted him.

 

max didnt say starter. he said primary. the primary catcher is the dude that was used more often. the staff utilized the catching services of sandy leon > christian vazquez. that is primary. to me...

[moonslav59]

max didnt say starter. he said primary. the primary catcher is the dude that was used more often. the staff utilized the catching services of sandy leon > christian vazquez. that is primary. to me...

 

I get your point, but Vaz was clearly their first choice--only his injury got in the way.

 

To me, "primary" means the team's first choice.

[Maxbialystock]

#1 FALSE

2018 GS

Leon = 78

Vaz = 67

 

#5

Players pass through waivers all the time.

 

#1 is not false. Vazquez was in fact the primary catcher.

 

#5 You are absolutely right, but the pass throughs occur because that player's salary makes him not worth picking up, which is still my point. If Sandy Leon is so good he transforms a pitching staff, than $2.5M is a small price to pay. Or consider that the BoSox are currently paying him $2.5M not to play for them. There is no way, no how putting Leon on waivers shows how great a catcher he is.

 

I like Sandy Leon, and I think he is a good catcher. But management--Cora, the pitching coach, DD, et al--don't like him that much and they are paid to make good judgments on players. And last year, just as you say, they saw him start 87 games for the Sox.

[Maxbialystock]

I amfighting late stages of Macro D (at age 94) sofind it hard to keep with even the most obvious. Which brings us to Vasquez. Three years ago I was sure he was the Sox catcher until 293! Now I wonder why he's even on the roster.

 

What happened? His hitting and fielding get worse every day.

 

This is not somethng out of the blue. Cora is using him less than he ever did, so it's not a secret.

 

What's the answer? I'll follow as best I can.

 

Excuse the typos

 

I'm 78 and wish I did as well as you on here. As for Vazquez, I think the early attraction was his arm and quick release. Thus his caught stealing percentage was 52% in 2014, but 37% last year. His fielding % has stayed around .993 and .994. His OWAR was 1.0 in 2014 and -.4 last year, so his hitting has clearly dropped off. His overall WAR in 2014 was 1.0 and last year was -0.8. So you are basically correct although I don't know how good or bad he is with the pitchers (his CERA).

[Kimmi]

If a pitcher thinks he throws better to catcher XYZ then he will...

 

Completely agree.

[Kimmi]

I honestly don't like Vazquez that much, but I seriously doubt he is the problem with the rotation. For these reasons--

 

1. He was the primary catcher last year, and the staff did fine.

2. This year the bullpen hasn't had the same problem as the rotation. In fact, far from it.

3. Indeed, by far the best pitched game this season was the only game in which none of the five starters threw a single pitch.

4. DD, Cora, and the pitching coach must have all agreed to retain Vasquez as the primary catcher even though it means paying Leon $2.5M to be in Pawtucket (after first putting him on waivers).

5. Speaking of which, why didn't any of the other 29 MLB teams pick up the greatest catcher in Sox history, Sandy Leon? Maybe because he really ain't that great--or ain't worth that $2.5M salary.

 

Vaz is not to blame for the starting pitching struggles. I think that Leon could help a couple of the pitchers somewhat, but they would not miraculously be pitching like aces if Leon were still on the team.

 

I'm a Vaz fan. He has not lived up to expectations the past couple of years, but the fact that Cora had Vaz starting most of the playoff games has to say something about the Red Sox' trust in what he does behind the plate.

[moonslav59]

#1 is not false. Vazquez was in fact the primary catcher.

 

#5 You are absolutely right, but the pass throughs occur because that player's salary makes him not worth picking up, which is still my point. If Sandy Leon is so good he transforms a pitching staff, than $2.5M is a small price to pay. Or consider that the BoSox are currently paying him $2.5M not to play for them. There is no way, no how putting Leon on waivers shows how great a catcher he is.

 

I like Sandy Leon, and I think he is a good catcher. But management--Cora, the pitching coach, DD, et al--don't like him that much and they are paid to make good judgments on players. And last year, just as you say, they saw him start 87 games for the Sox.

 

It takes time for a catcher to build up to a comfort level that makes a significant difference.

 

Just because a team decided it did not want to pay $2.5M and then wait out a learning curve, does NOT mean no team wanted him or finds him valuable.

[oldtimer]

It takes time for a catcher to build up to a comfort level that makes a significant difference.

 

Just because a team decided it did not want to pay $2.5M and then wait out a learning curve, does NOT mean no team wanted him or finds him valuable.

 

The Red Sox front office and coaches saw Leon as the third best option and put him on waivers. The fact is that no other club would take him for the money, despite some with needs, speaks to the view of his value by other teams. The Red Sox still have him in the system so an injury or sustained poor performance by one of our other catchers could land him back on the roster. I haven't heard anyone on the site pushing for his early return. Most people are willing to let the Sox decision play out and see what happens. I will check Leon from time to time to see how he is doing in the minors. I suspect he is not hitting all that well.

[moonslav59]

The Red Sox front office and coaches saw Leon as the third best option and put him on waivers. The fact is that no other club would take him for the money, despite some with needs, speaks to the view of his value by other teams. The Red Sox still have him in the system so an injury or sustained poor performance by one of our other catchers could land him back on the roster. I haven't heard anyone on the site pushing for his early return. Most people are willing to let the Sox decision play out and see what happens. I will check Leon from time to time to see how he is doing in the minors. I suspect he is not hitting all that well.

 

$2.5M is a lot for a catcher- any catcher. Leon's strength is how he builds a comfort level with a few starting pitchers. That takes time.

 

I disagree that no team claiming him means he has little value to us or other teams.

[mvp 78]

$2.5M is a lot for a catcher- any catcher. Leon's strength is how he builds a comfort level with a few starting pitchers. That takes time.

 

I disagree that no team claiming him means he has little value to us or other teams.

 

I'm with you, bub.

[notin]

$2.5M is a lot for a catcher- any catcher. Leon's strength is how he builds a comfort level with a few starting pitchers. That takes time.

 

I disagree that no team claiming him means he has little value to us or other teams.

 

 

$2.5mill is 1% of the payroll...

[Bellhorn04]

$2.5mill is 1% of the payroll...

 

I believe he meant 2.5 mill is a lot for another team who might have had interest in Leon.

[notin]

I believe he meant 2.5 mill is a lot for another team who might have had interest in Leon.

 

 

I can believe that. Especially when he was on waivers, Martin Maldonado was still unemployed...

[Bellhorn04]

I can believe that. Especially when he was on waivers, Martin Maldonado was still unemployed...

 

Yes, you mentioned that.

[mvp 78]

I can believe that. Especially when he was on waivers, Martin Maldonado was still unemployed...

 

Maybe some teams aren't buying into the defensive metrics surrounding catchers? Maybe there was some breaking point for his performance last year? IDK.

[moonslav59]

Maybe some teams aren't buying into the defensive metrics surrounding catchers? Maybe there was some breaking point for his performance last year? IDK.

 

That is certainly a possibility.

 

I'm thinking GMs probably did not want to start fresh with a new catcher and wait out the learning curve or "comfort" building period. Add to that the $2.5M price tag, at a time when similar catchers were being signed for a fraction of that cost, and it's easy to think maybe GMs wanted Leon, but they just didn't think the timing or budget hit were worth the trouble.

 

Just my opinion in response to those saying that because no GM claimed him, he is not valued.