Vasquez

[oldtimer]

Maybe he is in AAA because the Sox figured him most likely to clear waivers?

 

Leon is far from an All Star, but do you agree he would be in MLB if Swihart had an option left?

 

Not necessarily true. Swihart is the better offensive player and may have been up anyways. Leon cleared waivers and is in the minors where Swihart might have been in there had been options. I don't see where we are worse off. We don't have a Johnny Bench on our roster so we made do with the perceived best of the lot.

[notin]

Not necessarily true. Swihart is the better offensive player and may have been up anyways. Leon cleared waivers and is in the minors where Swihart might have been in there had been options. I don't see where we are worse off. We don't have a Johnny Bench on our roster so we made do with the perceived best of the lot.

 

 

It looked to me like the Sox made a concerted effort to keep all three. Had they DFAd Swihart, at minimum wage, he is less likely to clear waivers than the pricier Leon.

 

Of course, allegedly DD made an effort to trade one of these 3 and found no takers. At least not for whatever his price was...

[oldtimer]

I'm not saying he's good, he was a negative WAR player last year too, I'm saying Vazquez sucks too, and Leon is honestly a better option, due to how bad Vazquez sucks. The reason Leon is in AAA was money a money decision. No one is taking Vazquez with his salary and they aren't gonna release him and pay another guy to not be on the team.

 

By the way, Leon is hitting .111 with a .269 OPS in Pawtucket in 18 at bats. Can't see that helping us much.

[Slasher9]

By the way, Leon is hitting .111 with a .269 OPS in Pawtucket in 18 at bats. Can't see that helping us much.

 

I dont believe anyone is advocating Leon for his offensive prowess.

 

LEONGATE

[Hitch]

It really amazes me how many people can't see why people are advocating for Leon. I mean we could listen to the starting pitchers who've called him one of the best catchers they've thrown to, and excellent, routinely, but I mean what would they know right?

 

He may not be the answer to our problems, and he certainly isn't offensively going to blow teams away, but the pitching staff love and trust him. Why there is a need to overlook this is beyond me.

[notin]

By the way, Leon is hitting .111 with a .269 OPS in Pawtucket in 18 at bats. Can't see that helping us much.

 

 

Unless he helps a pitcher throw a little better.

 

Sale is having issues no catcher will solve. But what about Eovaldi?

[Kimmi]

Maybe he is in AAA because the Sox figured him most likely to clear waivers?

 

Leon is far from an All Star, but do you agree he would be in MLB if Swihart had an option left?

 

Ding, ding, ding.

 

We have a winner.

[Kimmi]

Not necessarily true. Swihart is the better offensive player and may have been up anyways. Leon cleared waivers and is in the minors where Swihart might have been in there had been options. I don't see where we are worse off. We don't have a Johnny Bench on our roster so we made do with the perceived best of the lot.

 

Having Leon up would not make this team an 11-2 team. That said, might Leon have been able to coax a pitcher through a tough inning a little better than one of the other catchers, resulting in the opposition scoring fewer runs? I think that's a very strong possibility.

 

The thing is, the tandem of Leon and Vaz worked very well last year. It's not something I would have messed with.

[Kimmi]

It really amazes me how many people can't see why people are advocating for Leon. I mean we could listen to the starting pitchers who've called him one of the best catchers they've thrown to, and excellent, routinely, but I mean what would they know right?

 

He may not be the answer to our problems, and he certainly isn't offensively going to blow teams away, but the pitching staff love and trust him. Why there is a need to overlook this is beyond me.

 

+100

[jung]

Unless he helps a pitcher throw a little better.

 

Sale is having issues no catcher will solve. But what about Eovaldi?

 

Well Nat was throwing to Swi last night. Whichever one of them (nat or swi) came up with FB in the LH hitter honey hole to Smoak needs his head examined. The second HR that inning was a hideously missed location. That one was all Nat. In between the two Nat apparently shook by the first HR gave up a BB making the 2nd a 2 run dinger. So the first HR could have been on Swi or Nat. The second was all Nat with a BB in between. So how much do we want to blame that on Swi?

 

The Sox might well get something out of Leon that they are not getting out of Vaz or Swi. But these guys simply were not ready to pitch MLB regular season baseball at the start and we should not try to lay that off on the catchers.

 

Tonight's victim is ERod. Will he be able to throw Changes to RH hitters? We have not seen even decent Changes from our 3 LH starters to RH hitters once this year. LHers cannot really get good RH hitters out consistently without a good Change the way the game is played today.

 

Here might be another benchmark for us. Chris Davis has always had that rocking chair swing which is a timing swing. There is no such thing as Chris Davis being able to keep his hands back when he is fooled by offspeed and turning a good pitch by a pitcher into a base hit for himself. When he hits it with that timed rocking chair swing, it goes a long way. Everything else is failure and as more pitchers have developed more offspeed, things have gotten worse for Davis. If Davis finally gets his first hit of the season off of ERod, pack ERod away for another month of the season before he can be relied on. Current season Chris Davis SHOULD NOT break out of his slump against a LH pitcher unless said LH pitcher is utter crap.

[moonslav59]

OK, fine....they are BOTH overrated defensively. Everyone acts like Leon will solve all the problems. He wont. He is a AAA catcher. He is where he should be.

 

The front office knows more than we do, and they think more of Vasquez and Swihart than they do Leon, to the point they were praying for another team to claim him, praying for another team to trade for him......now he sits in AAA, extremely overpaid.

 

What does "overrated defensively" mean?

 

Leon is consistently near the top of just about every important catcher stat, and then there is the whole CERA thingy.

[Slasher9]

What does "overrated defensively" mean?

 

Leon is consistently near the top of just about every important catcher stat, and then there is the whole CERA thingy.

 

and basically the entire pitching staff on record that they love throwing to him.....

 

#LEONGATE

[bosoxmal]

C.V. is in there ahain tonight. Against RH pitcherIt's one thing to gove the man chances, but jow many is too many?

 

Hopefully the brass is looking elsewhere.

[Jack Flap]

I remember when people started getting annoyed that we had to keep Mirabelli around as Wakefield's personal catcher for all those years...now, are we really supposed to believe that our entire starting five are pitching like overmatched minor leaguers because of the loss of the great Sandy Leon? Not to minimize his skills in any way, but that seems insane to me.

 

(Btw, maybe this has been answered already, but why is it the relievers can pitch to Vazquez/Swihart successfully, but not the starters...?)

[moonslav59]

I remember when people started getting annoyed that we had to keep Mirabelli around as Wakefield's personal catcher for all those years...now, are we really supposed to believe that our entire starting five are pitching like overmatched minor leaguers because of the loss of the great Sandy Leon? Not to minimize his skills in any way, but that seems insane to me.

 

(Btw, maybe this has been answered already, but why is it the relievers can pitch to Vazquez/Swihart successfully, but not the starters...?)

 

Nobody has ever said all 5 starters need Leon.

 

In fact, only two have much better records with Leon: Sale & Price.

[SCM33]

Sill LOL at Perez “out of baseball.” Good stuff. You follow this game a lot I can tell.

 

Yeah, I put that together quick.

 

Out of baseball for 2019, and who knows? We don't know how he will recover from TJS.

[SCM33]

What does "overrated defensively" mean?

 

Leon is consistently near the top of just about every important catcher stat, and then there is the whole CERA thingy.

 

Its really simple. If he is so good, then why did the Redsox try to get rid of him?

 

If he is so good, and leads in all of those important stats, then why did NO OTHER team want him?

 

If he is so good, and he leads all those important categories......why did he accept a minor league assignment?

 

Again, its rather simple. He's not that good, thats why. I think all of baseball, including the Redsox FO is smarter than homer Sox fans on a message board that overvalue a s***** backup catcher.

[SCM33]

Ding, ding, ding.

 

We have a winner.

 

Having Leon up would not make this team an 11-2 team. That said, might Leon have been able to coax a pitcher through a tough inning a little better than one of the other catchers, resulting in the opposition scoring fewer runs? I think that's a very strong possibility.

 

The thing is, the tandem of Leon and Vaz worked very well last year. It's not something I would have messed with.

 

+100

 

Ding ding ding, hes in AAA.

 

Nobody else wanted him. Proof is in the pudding, and that pudding is being eaten by Sandy in AAA, and Sandy pudding probably tastes like s***.

[moonslav59]

Its really simple. If he is so good, then why did the Redsox try to get rid of him?

 

Apparently, they tried to trade any of our catchers- not just Leon.

 

If he is so good, and leads in all of those important stats, then why did NO OTHER team want him?

 

Asked and answered dozens of times.

 

If he is so good, and he leads all those important categories......why did he accept a minor league assignment?

 

He knows he'll be back on the big club- the one that will will win another ring.

 

Again, its rather simple. He's not that good, thats why. I think all of baseball, including the Redsox FO is smarter than homer Sox fans on a message board that overvalue a s***** backup catcher.

 

 

Why did the Sox offer a s***** catcher an arb that amounted to $2.5M? I guess you think they are dumb.

 

If he sucks, why did they even offer him a minor league assignment?

 

I wouldn't have offered him $2.5M, if I thought he sucked, so who is smarter? The Sox FO or some of us?

 

[Jasonbay44]

By the way, Leon is hitting .111 with a .269 OPS in Pawtucket in 18 at bats. Can't see that helping us much.

 

Incredibly small sample size, and besides Leon's offense isn't why he'd be brought up.

[Jasonbay44]

Originally Posted by Jasonbay44

I think you are misunderstanding what me and many others are arguing in this Leon debate. I am not saying Leon is the reason the pitchers were good, or that Vaz is the reason they are bad.

 

My argument is, neither Leon OR Vazquez are good hitters, they are both very bad hitters. However, Leon is way better defensively (and yes it is a pretty large difference, the metrics support this) and the pitchers seem to be more comfortable with him for whatever reason. So why have Vazquez over Leon? If they both suck in one area, and Leon is superior in the other, why keep Vazquez over Leon? There is nothing Vaz does better, that is the point being made. I'm not arguing that the pitchers are sucking because Leon, if they are MLB pichers being paid millions and can only pitch to Sandy Leon, that is a completely different issue I don't even know how to toggle.

 

I do understand what you are saying. I do think that Swihart and Vasquez are better offensive players. I am not sure how much catcher defense really matter.

 

Starting Catchers by World Series Champs:

2018 Leon (Now in AAA)

2017 McCann (backup catcher now, not a good catcher, criticized for ability to frame pitches )

2016 Montero (backup catcher now)

2015 Perez (out of baseball now)

2014 Posey (not a good defensive C, regardless of GG hello Jeter...no longer a catcher)

2013 Salty (not a good defensive C, out of baseball)

2012 Posey (not a good defensive C, regardless of GG hello Jeter...no longer a catcher)

 

We are overvaluing him. Simple as that.

What are you even talking about? Buster Posey in his prime was a great defensive catcher, what metrics or stats are you using to prove otherwise? Also he is definitely still a catcher. he's played 11 games this season, 9 at C, 2 at 1B and has played a majority of his games every year in the MLB at catcher, he plays 1B sometimes now due to his age and the wear and tear.

 

in 2013, David Ross played a majority of the games in the world series, in large part due to how bad Salty's defense was.

 

Salvador Perez is one of best catchers in baseball, and is absolutely stud defensively.

 

Miguel Montero is 36 and is retired. Maybe he regressed, IDK, due to being old?

 

McCann in his prime was stud offensively, and his defense was solid enough, if the knock you want to use on him is that he struggled defensively in one of the last seasons of his career? Sure, go for it. Not sure what this has to do with anything regardless. None of our catchers are as good as McCann.

 

Vazquez isn't a better hit than Leon, they are both equally s*****. But Leon offers better defense... I don't get the difficulty of understanding this.

[oldtimer]

Right now we have a number of players that are hitting poorly or at least well below their norms, including Vazquez. Betts, Devers and JBJ who are off poorly. The hope is that they all start to show improvement and soon with the Rays and Yankees coming up. Leon sits in the minors hitting 111. The idea of bring him up doesn't make a lot of sense to me at this point. There would be salary impacts and the loss of Vaz or Swihart. Too little benefit for a small perceived gain. Be patient with Vaz. Maybe he and the other underperformers will start to come through.

[notin]

Its really simple. If he is so good, then why did the Redsox try to get rid of him?

 

If he is so good, and leads in all of those important stats, then why did NO OTHER team want him?

 

If he is so good, and he leads all those important categories......why did he accept a minor league assignment?

 

Again, its rather simple. He's not that good, thats why. I think all of baseball, including the Redsox FO is smarter than homer Sox fans on a message board that overvalue a s***** backup catcher.

 

 

Not sure why this isn’t sinking in.

 

QUIT BRINGING UP OTHER TEAMS!!MANY (all?) PASSED ON LEON BECAUSE THEY HAVE BETTER CATCHERS!! NO ONE IS SAYING LEON IS ANY SORT OF HIDDEN GEM OR ALL STAR IN THE MAKING!! THE NOTION IS LEON IS BETTER THAN VAZQUEZ OR SWIHART!!! THAT’S IT!!! LEON IS NOT THE BEST CATCHER BUT HE MIGHT BE THE BEST SOX CATCHER!!

 

The pitching staff agreed with this. Are you saying you know more about catchers than the Sox pitching staff?

Edited April 13, 2019 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Not sure why this isn’t sinking in.

 

QUIT BRINGING UP OTHER TEAMS!!MANY (all?) PASSED ON LEON BECAUSE THEY HAVE BETTER CATCHERS!! NO ONE IS SAYING LEON IS ANY SORT OF HIDDEN GEM OR ALL STAR IN THE MAKING!! THE NOTION IS LEON IS BETTER THAN VAZQUEZ OR SWIHART!!! THAT’S IT!!! LEON IS NOT THE BEST CATCHER BUT HE MIGHT BE THE BEST SOX CATCHER!!

 

The pitching staff agreed with this. Are you saying you know more about catchers than the Sox pitching staff?

 

I don't think I've ever seen you post in caps before.

[devildavid]

Having Leon up would not make this team an 11-2 team. That said, might Leon have been able to coax a pitcher through a tough inning a little better than one of the other catchers, resulting in the opposition scoring fewer runs? I think that's a very strong possibility.

 

The thing is, the tandem of Leon and Vaz worked very well last year. It's not something I would have messed with.

 

So do you think that part of Cora's plan was to not have Leon on the team? Or was it strictly an upper management decision? Remember last season when Hanley was dumped? Was that part of the Cora plan or strictly upper management? Cora's plan does need to take into consideration the personnel he has and their role in his plan.

[moonslav59]

I don't think I've ever seen you post in caps before.

 

What he said needed it.

[oldtimer]

Not sure why this isn’t sinking in.

 

QUIT BRINGING UP OTHER TEAMS!!MANY (all?) PASSED ON LEON BECAUSE THEY HAVE BETTER CATCHERS!! NO ONE IS SAYING LEON IS ANY SORT OF HIDDEN GEM OR ALL STAR IN THE MAKING!! THE NOTION IS LEON IS BETTER THAN VAZQUEZ OR SWIHART!!! THAT’S IT!!! LEON IS NOT THE BEST CATCHER BUT HE MIGHT BE THE BEST SOX CATCHER!!

 

The pitching staff agreed with this. Are you saying you know more about catchers than the Sox pitching staff?

 

Then again, Leon might NOT be the best Sox catcher. Whether collectively or driven by individual decision making, the Sox management made the decision based on what they had seen. Vaz did the job with the bat today. Some would like to blame Porcello's struggles on the catcher but I wonder if the staff just is struggling due to poor preparation.

[moonslav59]

Porcello's career numbers with Leo and Vaz are not that different.

 

Only Sale & Price (plus a few RP'ers) have a much better record with Leon.

[SCM33]

Not sure why this isn’t sinking in.

 

QUIT BRINGING UP OTHER TEAMS!!MANY (all?) PASSED ON LEON BECAUSE THEY HAVE BETTER CATCHERS!! NO ONE IS SAYING LEON IS ANY SORT OF HIDDEN GEM OR ALL STAR IN THE MAKING!! THE NOTION IS LEON IS BETTER THAN VAZQUEZ OR SWIHART!!! THAT’S IT!!! LEON IS NOT THE BEST CATCHER BUT HE MIGHT BE THE BEST SOX CATCHER!!

 

The pitching staff agreed with this. Are you saying you know more about catchers than the Sox pitching staff?

 

No argument there. Even you admit hes the worst catcher in baseball. Thank you for finally agreeing.

[notin]

No argument there. Even you admit hes the worst catcher in baseball. Thank you for finally agreeing.

 

 

 

That’s actually not what that paragraph says. Not even close.

 

Is there some sort of super caps I can use that makes the point?