2019 Spring Training Thread

[cp176]

Wow! How will our starting pitchers react?

 

i wonder if they will just up and quit??? LOL

[Bellhorn04]

Wow! How will our starting pitchers react?

 

They're professionals so they will get on with it.

 

But I don't think they were just bullshitting when they raved about his catching abilities.

[cp176]

They're professionals so they will get on with it.

 

But I don't think they were just bullshitting when they raved about his catching abilities.

 

I would hope that anyone who has even just a faint clue about the real game of baseball would have a deep appreciation of the talents of Sandy Leon. He did a great job for us. He is replaceable and probably our pitchers are aware of that. Doesn't make his contributions any less important. My opinion here is that there a few amongst us who inflated his importance and are having trouble accepting the fact that the front office does not share their opinion.

[notin]

They're professionals so they will get on with it.

 

But I don't think they were just bullshitting when they raved about his catching abilities.

 

 

While the pitchers all loved Leon, it’s not as if Christian Vazquez is a pile of poop back there...

[Jack Flap]

Yeah, I think Vazquez can be Leon's equal (or close) as defensive whiz and pitcher whisperer, while offering more upside with the bat. I'm okay with this move, and even more okay with it if Leon clears waivers and can be stashed in Pawtucket to preserve depth.

[moonslav59]

While the pitchers all loved Leon, it’s not as if Christian Vazquez is a pile of poop back there...

 

I'm hopeful Vaz can fill the void, but I think the learning curve with Swihart may take longer.

 

The good thing is that ERod doesn't seem to care who catches him and Eovaldi has not been here long enough to miss Sandy all that much. Porcello's numbers are close, too.

 

My guess is Vaz catches Sale, Price and Porcello plus some with Eovaldi. Swihart catches ERod a little with Eovaldi. (Just my gut feeling.)

 

One last time, here are the current career splits by catcher:

 

Sale

2.42 w Leon (1250 PAs) Best of all catchers 850+ PAs

3.40 w Vaz (218)

No PAs with Swihart

 

Price

2.83 w Leon (769) Best of any catcher with 455+ PAs

4.32 w Vaz (1113)

5.73 w Swihart (48)

 

Porcello

4.14 w Leon (2030) Best of any catcher with 230+ PAs

4.15 w Vaz (564)

4.59 w Swihart (498)

 

ERod

4.00 w Leon (415) Best of all catchers with 222+ PAs

4.08 w Swihart (4.08)

4.24 w Vaz (1178)

 

No catcher in MLB has gotten a better ERA with more PAs than Leon with these four pitchers who have had good to great careers.

 

Eovaldi (small sample size alert)

0.55 Vaz (65)

3.86 Leon (146)

No PAs with Swihart

 

If Swihart catches just ERod, maybe the learning curve will not be too long or too costly.

 

 

[mvp 78]

The Red Sox have placed Sandy Leon on waivers:

 

 

RIP sweet prince.

[Slasher9]

Catcher position defensively just screams high IQ to me. Sandy seems smart and certainly the defensive numbers seem to convey this.

Vaz with that haircut just doesnt look intelligent. and swi with all those tattoos doesnt seem intelligent either. amiright?

[mvp 78]

Catcher position defensively just screams high IQ to me. Sandy seems smart and certainly the defensive numbers seem to convey this.

Vaz with that haircut just doesnt look intelligent. and swi with all those tattoos doesnt seem intelligent either. amiright?

 

Vaz seems to have a tendency to fall asleep back there once in a while. While a lot of posters on here like Swihart's potential, I just don't see it at this point.

[moonslav59]

Vaz seems to have a tendency to fall asleep back there once in a while. While a lot of posters on here like Swihart's potential, I just don't see it at this point.

 

I'm willing to keep an open mind on Swihart's potential, and let's remember that VTek did not become all that great until 28 and older.

 

I share your opinion on not seeing anything up to this point that would indicate he can be plus of offense or defense in a short period of time going forward.

[iortiz]

IMO BS has way more upside than Leon. Leon can't bring more to the table. I think DD did the right thing.

[mvp 78]

I'm willing to keep an open mind on Swihart's potential, and let's remember that VTek did not become all that great until 28 and older.

 

I share your opinion on not seeing anything up to this point that would indicate he can be plus of offense or defense in a short period of time going forward.

 

This ignores that Varitek's minor league numbers were much better than Swihart's.

[BillyWilliams]

I'm willing to keep an open mind on Swihart's potential, and let's remember that VTek did not become all that great until 28 and older.

 

I share your opinion on not seeing anything up to this point that would indicate he can be plus of offense or defense in a short period of time going forward.

 

He compiled 24.2 WAR over 15 years, or what amounts to 1.61 WAR per year, not sure that exactly qualifies as "great".

[moonslav59]

He compiled 24.2 WAR over 15 years, or what amounts to 1.61 WAR per year, not sure that exactly qualifies as "great".

 

VTek was great for about 5-6 years.

[BillyWilliams]

VTek was great for about 5-6 years.

 

He had a few above average seasons, let's not get carried away.......

[moonslav59]

He had a few above average seasons, let's not get carried away.......

 

Let's not gloss over the intangibles VTek brought to the game.

 

He was a great game-caller and a master hitter analyst.

 

He became a great pitch blocker & framer. His only weak area on defense was his arm.

 

From 2001-2007, he had the 3rd best catcher WAR (18.2). To me, that is great and certainly much better than "above average".

 

His OPS in that period was .811. That is great for a catcher.

 

[Maxbialystock]

I agree with anyone who says Sandy Leon is a superb defensive catcher. But I have to wonder how a professional with his acumen could simply let himself go to the degree he has. Think Pablo.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree with anyone who says Sandy Leon is a superb defensive catcher. But I have to wonder how a professional with his acumen could simply let himself go to the degree he has. Think Pablo.

 

I don't think there's any comparison. Leon just has a bulky build.

[Bellhorn04]

Let's not gloss over the intangibles VTek brought to the game.

 

He was a great game-caller and a master hitter analyst.

 

He became a great pitch blocker & framer. His only weak area on defense was his arm.

 

From 2001-2007, he had the 3rd best catcher WAR (18.2). To me, that is great and certainly much better than "above average".

 

His OPS in that period was .811. That is great for a catcher.

 

 

I think good defensive catchers do get short-changed by WAR.

 

Jeff Mathis has a career bWAR of exactly 1.0. (He's a worse hitter than Leon.)

 

But he's had a steady job since 2005.

[BillyWilliams]

Let's not gloss over the intangibles VTek brought to the game.

 

He was a great game-caller and a master hitter analyst.

 

He became a great pitch blocker & framer. His only weak area on defense was his arm.

 

From 2001-2007, he had the 3rd best catcher WAR (18.2). To me, that is great and certainly much better than "above average".

 

His OPS in that period was .811. That is great for a catcher.

 

 

If he was so "great" behind the plate how come the sawx staff ERA over his career was mostly middle of the road despite having a 1st ballot HOF'er in pedro, another strong HOF candidate in schilling etc on the staff?

[notin]

If he was so "great" behind the plate how come the sawx staff ERA over his career was mostly middle of the road despite having a 1st ballot HOF'er in pedro, another strong HOF candidate in schilling etc on the staff?

 

 

The Sox also had a lot of mediocre and bad pitchers while Varitek was catching. He was a catcher, not a magician...

[FredLynn]

I don't think there's any comparison. Leon just has a bulky build.

 

Leon is fat. Sorry for the political incorrectness of that, but its true. He is overweight (actually obese, by BMI calculations at 225/5-10 with a BMI of 32.3) and it will eventually affect his performance in terms of susceptibility to injury at the very least. It is beyond me how these highly paid players (some of whom are athletes) show up in camp in the kind of shape Leon did. He of course has a lot of company.

I agree with Max.

Edited March 25, 2019 by FredLynn

[moonslav59]

I don't think there's any comparison. Leon just has a bulky build.

 

He looks no different today than 3-4 years ago.

[mvp 78]

Leon is fat. Sorry for the political incorrectness of that, but its true. He is overweight (actually obese, by BMI calculations at 225/5-10 with a BMI of 32.3) and it will eventually affect his performance in terms of susceptibility to injury at the very least. It is beyond me how these highly paid players (some of whom are athletes) show up in camp in the kind of shape Leon did. He of course has a lot of company.

I agree with Max.

 

BMI is terrible when accounting for athletes. Bo Jackson in his prime had an obese number for BMI. It's a terrible metric.

 

Leon is fine.

[BillyWilliams]

The Sox also had a lot of mediocre and bad pitchers while Varitek was catching. He was a catcher, not a magician...

 

Pretty much every staff can claim that...........

[harmony]

Leon is fat. Sorry for the political incorrectness of that, but its true. He is overweight (actually obese, by BMI calculations at 225/5-10 with a BMI of 32.3) and it will eventually affect his performance in terms of susceptibility to injury at the very least. It is beyond me how these highly paid players (some of whom are athletes) show up in camp in the kind of shape Leon did. He of course has a lot of company.

I agree with Max.

For what it's worth, two-time All Star catcher Wilson Ramos has a BMI of 32.5 (6-1, 245).

[Slasher9]

Varitek > Posada

nomar > jeter

pedro > ped-itte

rs damon > nyy damon

rs ellsbury > nyy ellsbury

pedroia > knoblauch

[moonslav59]

If he was so "great" behind the plate how come the sawx staff ERA over his career was mostly middle of the road despite having a 1st ballot HOF'er in pedro, another strong HOF candidate in schilling etc on the staff?

 

It's not about staff ERA, it's about staff ERA with VTek vs the other catcher on the same team. He clearly got the best out of what we had. These are the pitchers with the most IP from 2001-2007. Other than Pedro, Schill & Beckett, there's not much there.

 

Pedro

2.45 w VTek (4491 PAs) (best of any catcher with 134+ PAs)

2.62 Piazza (788

2.71 Hatteberg (959)

3.08 Fletcher (2524)

3.40 Castro (776)

3.86 Lo Duca (477)

6.60 Schnieder (213)

 

Schilling (Joined Sox post-prime)

3.22 DMiller

3.27 Lieberthal

3.51 Daulton

3.96 VTek

4.25 Mirabelli

 

Wakefield (Vtek struggled catching the knuckler- no doubt)

2.87 Mcfarlane

4.12 Mirabelli

4.42 Hasselman

4.53 Hatteberg

4.56 KCash

4.59 Kottaras

4.66 VTek

5.16 VMart

5.21 Salty

5.24 Slaught

5.60 Stanley

 

DLowe

3.52 RMartin

3.63 VTek

3.96 Hatteberg

4.45 BMcCann

4.91 Mirabelli

5.17 DRoss

 

Beckett

.299 IRodriguez

3.68 VTek

3.73 Lo Duca

4.52 AJ Ellis

4.56 Redmond

4.83 Salty

5.46 Shoppach

6.97 KCash

7.94 Lavarnway

10.32 Kottaras

 

 

[notin]

Leon is fat. Sorry for the political incorrectness of that, but its true. He is overweight (actually obese, by BMI calculations at 225/5-10 with a BMI of 32.3) and it will eventually affect his performance in terms of susceptibility to injury at the very least. It is beyond me how these highly paid players (some of whom are athletes) show up in camp in the kind of shape Leon did. He of course has a lot of company.

I agree with Max.

 

 

I thought it was odd he referred to Leon’s physique by saying he let himself go. Maybe if Leon wasn’t an athlete, he’d be 5’10 400lbs. Maybe this is the “fine tuned” version. There’s no physical standard for one’s personal “best shape of his life”...

[moonslav59]

I thought it was odd he referred to Leon’s physique by saying he let himself go. Maybe if Leon wasn’t an athlete, he’d be 5’10 400lbs. Maybe this is the “fine tuned” version. There’s no physical standard for one’s personal “best shape of his life”...

 

Good point. I never thought of him that way.