The Pen

[Bellhorn04]

I said it before and I'll say it again . The concept of " leverage situations " is misguided. These guys can warm up and prepare better when they have defined roles . And they certainly prefer to start a clean inning as much as possible . Some things that may look good on paper do not always work so well in reality .

 

The Yankees have been using Ottavino in that high leverage fireman role and it has worked pretty well for them.

[dgalehouse]

The Yankees have been using Ottavino in that high leverage fireman role and it has worked pretty well for them.

 

No need to tell me about Ottavino and the Yankees bullpen. I warned from the get go that this was a problem for us . Ad nauseum. And the Yankees pretty much have a plan for using them . Ottavino and Kahnle in the sixth or seventh , Britton in the eighth and Chapman in the ninth . They are a very solid group, even minus Betances. They don't use Chapman to pitch the seventh regardless of who is due to bat . He is the closer . With the Sox , it has been pretty much " play it by ear " , trial and error all year . For the umpteenth time , the disparity in the bullpens is the one big difference between the Sox and Yankees . And one could see it coming a mile away , if one tried that is .

[Bellhorn04]

No need to tell me about Ottavino and the Yankees bullpen. I warned from the get go that this was a problem for us . Ad nauseum. And the Yankees pretty much have a plan for using them . Ottavino and Kahnle in the sixth or seventh , Britton in the eighth and Chapman in the ninth . They are a very solid group, even minus Betances. They don't use Chapman to pitch the seventh regardless of who is due to bat . He is the closer . With the Sox , it has been pretty much " play it by ear " , trial and error all year . For the umpteenth time , the disparity in the bullpens is the one big difference between the Sox and Yankees . And one could see it coming a mile away , if one tried that is .

 

Yes, yes, I knew that was coming LOL

 

But Ottavino has pitched about equally in the 6th, 7th and 8th and has been the guy regularly used in those high leverage situations prior to the 9th and with men on base, so he does contradict your position.

[notin]

No need to tell me about Ottavino and the Yankees bullpen. I warned from the get go that this was a problem for us . Ad nauseum. And the Yankees pretty much have a plan for using them . Ottavino and Kahnle in the sixth or seventh , Britton in the eighth and Chapman in the ninth . They are a very solid group, even minus Betances. They don't use Chapman to pitch the seventh regardless of who is due to bat . He is the closer . With the Sox , it has been pretty much " play it by ear " , trial and error all year . For the umpteenth time , the disparity in the bullpens is the one big difference between the Sox and Yankees . And one could see it coming a mile away , if one tried that is .

 

The disparity in the Sox bullpen isn't in the way the pitchers are utilized; it's in the talent of the pitchers involved.

 

If Boone used the Yankee relievers in a "play it by ear" fashion that had Chapman pitching the occasional 7th or 8th, and saves distributed among the 4 pitchers, would they suddenly be ineffective?

 

If Cora used the regimented bullpen role philosophy and always used, say, Walden in the 6th, Hembree in the 7th, Barnes in the 8th and let Workman close all year - or whatever arrangement you think is better - would this bullpen suddenly be better? Would you suddenly take our bullpen over the play-it-by-ear Yankee version?

[dgalehouse]

The disparity in the Sox bullpen isn't in the way the pitchers are utilized; it's in the talent of the pitchers involved.

 

If Boone used the Yankee relievers in a "play it by ear" fashion that had Chapman pitching the occasional 7th or 8th, and saves distributed among the 4 pitchers, would they suddenly be ineffective?

 

If Cora used the regimented bullpen role philosophy and always used, say, Walden in the 6th, Hembree in the 7th, Barnes in the 8th and let Workman close all year - or whatever arrangement you think is better - would this bullpen suddenly be better? Would you suddenly take our bullpen over the play-it-by-ear Yankee version?

Are you saying that the Yankees bullpen is more talented and capable? Thanks . I knew that . And they are doing very well with the way they are being utilized. I doubt they are thinking of changing the current system.

[notin]

Are you saying that the Yankees bullpen is more talented and capable? Thanks . I knew that . And they are doing very well with the way they are being utilized. I doubt they are thinking of changing the current system.

 

I am saying the Yankees bullpen pitchers are more talented and it has nothing to do with the way they are being utilized. They just have better pitchers in the bullpen.

 

And I simply asked a hypothetical question. I don't expect the Yankees to change anything...

[Kimmi]

Boston Sports Info

 

@bostonsportsinf

·

51m

 

 

Red Sox in August in MLB

 

ERA

Starters - 6.52 ERA - 29th of 30

Reliever - 2.64 ERA - 2nd of 30

 

WHIP

Starters - 1.63 WHIP - 30th of 30

Reliever - 1.07 WHIP - 2nd of 30

 

IP/G

Starters - 4.72 IP/G - 24th of 30

Reliever - 4.12 IP/G - 8th of 30

[Kimmi]

Boston Sports Info

 

@bostonsportsinf

·

27m

 

 

Red Sox starters thru 128 games

 

Quality Starts

2019 - 46 - Team (35-11, .761)

2018 - 62 - Team (51-11, .823)

 

GS ≤ 3 IP

2019- 20

2018- 5

 

GS ≤ 4 IP

2019- 30

2018- 20

 

GS ≤ 5 IP

2019- 55

2018- 42

 

Just a gargantuan regression by the starters causing this season to go sideways

[a700hitter]

Boston Sports Info

 

@bostonsportsinf

·

27m

 

 

Red Sox starters thru 128 games

 

Quality Starts

2019 - 46 - Team (35-11, .761)

2018 - 62 - Team (51-11, .823)

 

GS ≤ 3 IP

2019- 20

2018- 5

 

GS ≤ 4 IP

2019- 30

2018- 20

 

GS ≤ 5 IP

2019- 55

2018- 42

 

Just a gargantuan regression by the starters causing this season to go sideways

That will happen when you don't have a 5th starter and your 4th starter has gone into the abyss.

[moonslav59]

That will happen when you don't have a 5th starter and your 4th starter has gone into the abyss.

 

Our 5th starter and beyond have sucked, although we have a winning record with them and them plus Porcello.

 

A lot of those numbers are affected by Sale and Price.

 

QS% 2018>2019

63>52 Sale -11%

60>43 Price -17%

48 >44 Porcello -4%

30>52 ERod +22%

27>20 Eovaldi -7%

 

5 & 6 starters:

2018: 21%(3 in 14)

18% Pom (11 GS)> 33 Weber (3GS)+15%

2019: 40% (4 in 10)

75% Wright (4GS)>17 Cashner (6GS)-58%

 

Scrubs:

2018: 4.5% (1 in 22 starts)

8% Johnson (13), 0% Velazquez (8), 0% Beeks (1) & Cuevas (1)

2019: 0% (0 in 17 starts)

0 Johnson, Velazquez, Smith, Hernandez (17 starts combined)

 

Porcello has a better QS% than Price, this year! Shocking, huh? I thought he might raise it tonight, but now I'm not so sure.

[moonslav59]

Boston Sports Info

 

@bostonsportsinf

·

27m

 

 

Red Sox starters thru 128 games

 

Quality Starts

2019 - 46 - Team (35-11, .761)

2018 - 62 - Team (51-11, .823)

 

GS ≤ 3 IP

2019- 20

2018- 5

 

GS ≤ 4 IP

2019- 30

2018- 20

 

GS ≤ 5 IP

2019- 55

2018- 42

 

Just a gargantuan regression by the starters causing this season to go sideways

 

3 and under, 4 and under, 5 and under (GS total)

 

Sale

2018: 2, 3*, 9 (27) *all 3 were in last 4 starts

2019: 1, 2, 7 (25)

 

Price

2018: 1, 3, 8 (30)

2019: 3, 4, 10 (21)

 

Top 2:

'18: 3,5,17 out of 57

'19: 4,6,17 out of 46

 

Porcello

2018: 2, 4, 9 (33)

2019: 2, 2, 7 (25)

 

Not much different from 2018.

[a700hitter]

Mejia was a complete bust. I was hoping that he would play a role on the big club. He is 2-7 with a 6.52 ERA with Pawtucket. Yuk!

[illinoisredsox]

Mejia was a complete bust. I was hoping that he would play a role on the big club. He is 2-7 with a 6.52 ERA with Pawtucket. Yuk!

 

That last part may make Price go Eck on you

[a700hitter]

That last part may make Price go Eck on you

If I can get on his charter flight, I will gladly take the harangue. LOL!

[mvp 78]

This bullpen sucks, but Kimbrel and Kelly wouldn’t have helped much.

[jacksonianmarch]

I happen to remember Sox fans drooling over Brasier last year and thinking he’d be nails over the offseason. And I kept having to remind you guys that his xFIP was higher and his stuff/command got him banished to the Japanese minor leagues just a season before. He was a pumpkin that was integral in a title run. Expecting him to fill a major role in your pen from day 1 was a foreseeable disaster. Regression was inevitable

[notin]

I happen to remember Sox fans drooling over Brasier last year and thinking he’d be nails over the offseason. And I kept having to remind you guys that his xFIP was higher and his stuff/command got him banished to the Japanese minor leagues just a season before. He was a pumpkin that was integral in a title run. Expecting him to fill a major role in your pen from day 1 was a foreseeable disaster. Regression was inevitable

 

Whatever.

 

There were plenty of people out here who couldn’t believe anyone put any faith in 30IP from Brasier...

[Bellhorn04]

At the end of the season, we'll probably be able to say that if Dombrowski had done a better job with the pen we would have been in the Wild Card game.

[notin]

At the end of the season, we'll probably be able to say that if Dombrowski had done a better job with the pen we would have been in the Wild Card game.

 

Of course you have to find a way to negate the contributions of Steve Pearce...

[Bellhorn04]

Of course you have to find a way to negate the contributions of Steve Pearce...

 

IMHO it's on both DD and JH if they decided it was Pearce or a reliever.

[notin]

IMHO it's on both DD and JH if they decided it was Pearce or a reliever.

 

1) It does appear that was the decision. 2) We don’t know how involved Henry gets, but we do know Dombrowski is involved in these decisions...

[Bellhorn04]

1) It does appear that was the decision. 2) We don’t know how involved Henry gets, but we do know Dombrowski is involved in these decisions...

 

The Pearce signing came before the Eovaldi signing, right?

[notin]

The Pearce signing came before the Eovaldi signing, right?

 

Yes. I don’t think Pearce had much e get along interest...

[dgalehouse]

The uncompensated loss of Kimbrel and Kelly greatly harmed the bullpen . Not only the closer position , but the overall depth as well . The idea that we would be fine with what we had left was an error . This is not second guessing .

[jung]

The uncompensated loss of Kimbrel and Kelly greatly harmed the bullpen . Not only the closer position , but the overall depth as well . The idea that we would be fine with what we had left was an error . This is not second guessing .

 

Plenty of blame to go around from DD through Cora though some of the players:

- DD for simply following his usual pen MO

- DD for overpaying for Nate and for signing fat ass Pearce at all

- Cora for his ST plan for pitchers that just based on Sale was a FAIL

- who knows what the f*** plan LaVangie had. He's a catcher!

- Fat Ass Pearce who simply proved himself to be fat ass Pearce

- JD and Mookie clearly suffering from early season distractions that should not have been distractions at all

 

Kudos to X, Rafi, Vaz, Work and Erod with special emphasis on X who is now the clubhouse leader of this team. You can have the rest of them top to bottom in this organization at least as it relates to their 2019 "effort"

Edited September 1, 2019 by jung

[FredLynn]

At the end of the season, we'll probably be able to say that if Dombrowski had done a better job with the pen we would have been in the Wild Card game.

 

I disagree. No reasonable amount of bullpen help was going to make much of a difference given how s***** our SP was this year. Our pen actually had a lower ERA than our SPs: 4.29 v 4.99. If the SP was good we would be in the playoff hunt no matter what DD did with the pen.

[S5Dewey]

I disagree. No reasonable amount of bullpen help was going to make much of a difference given how s***** our SP was this year. Our pen actually had a lower ERA than our SPs: 4.29 v 4.99. If the SP was good we would be in the playoff hunt no matter what DD did with the pen.

 

Ya. I believe this is it. If the Sox were getting six or seven innings and an average ERA of ~4.0 regularly from the SP it would take a lot of pressure (and INNINGS) off the 'pen. While we don't have knowledge of how the BP would have performed in a better situation we can probably assume that they would have performed better given fewer innings.

 

If you buy into that^ the next logical step is to think that all this hate for DD is misguided. He did exactly what a GM is supposed to do: He assembled a team that should have been favored to win the ALE. Yes, he could have done 'more' at the deadline but by that point he would have been bringing in a garden hose to help the fire department. The damage was done and even if by some miracle the garden hose had helped put out the fire the house was probably still going to be ruined. One garden hose isn't going to make much of a difference.

 

IMO this season's lack of success lies on the backs of the starting pitching. I'm not suggesting a lack of effort from any of them. It's just what it is.

[notin]

Ya. I believe this is it. If the Sox were getting six or seven innings and an average ERA of ~4.0 regularly from the SP it would take a lot of pressure (and INNINGS) off the 'pen. While we don't have knowledge of how the BP would have performed in a better situation we can probably assume that they would have performed better given fewer innings.

 

If you buy into that^ the next logical step is to think that all this hate for DD is misguided. He did exactly what a GM is supposed to do: He assembled a team that should have been favored to win the ALE. Yes, he could have done 'more' at the deadline but by that point he would have been bringing in a garden hose to help the fire department. The damage was done and even if by some miracle the garden hose had helped put out the fire the house was probably still going to be ruined. One garden hose isn't going to make much of a difference.

 

IMO this season's lack of success lies on the backs of the starting pitching. I'm not suggesting a lack of effort from any of them. It's just what it is.

 

It’s one thing to prioritize a rotation over the bullpen. It’s another to prioritize a backup 1b over the bullpen...

[dgalehouse]

The disappointing performance from the rotation was certainly not anticipated . The bullpen problems were very much expected . Or at least should have been . A strong, deep bullpen can , at least to some extent, compensate for a weak rotation. In any case , expecting to consistently get seven good innings from your starter is not realistic in today's game .

[moonslav59]

It’s one thing to prioritize a rotation over the bullpen. It’s another to prioritize a backup 1b over the bullpen...

 

I totally agree, but we ended up playing our third string 1Bman much of the year.

 

Innings at 1B this year:

 

490 Moreland

401 Chavis

138 Travis

130 Pearce

54 Vaz

18 Holt

1 Swihart

 

Moreland has played 39% of the innings at 1B, this year.

 

That being said, it's highly doubtful that had Moreland played 70% of the innings and Pearce 30% we'd be any better off. Spending more on the pen made more sense then and now.