A Realistic View at 2019: Part I

[notin]

Right, but you also said we got 'zilch' from our catchers last year, implying zero value on either offense or defense.

 

 

Or total.

 

And according to Fangraphs, the Sox got less than zilch from their catchers...

[BillyWilliams]

Sox starters ERA 3.77

Yankee starters ERA 4.05

 

Sox bullpen ERA 3.72

Yankee bullpen ERA 3.38

 

Sox had better starters, Yankees had better bullpen. Anyone who says we had a 'much stronger staff' was being somewhat of a homer, I'd say.

 

Our advantage in the starters really showed up in the ALDS.

 

Sale being out as long as he was hurt our numbers a bit.

 

So the catchers are only superhuman when it comes to the starters and then fall back to earth when the relievers hit the mound?

[moonslav59]

What’s the worst thing if he gets burned out? He stops hitting?

 

Honestly , the Sox got zilch from their catchers last year and still won 119 games. If Juan Centeno catches a few dozen games, what’s the impact?

 

I have no evidence to back this up, but I think his pitch blocking skills got worse when he was forced to play more, but yes, his hitting went from bad to horrible.

 

He started playing more when July came around. On June 30th, he had a .706 OPS. He had a .413 OPS afterwards.

 

I know: one season- one small sample size, but he looked beat to me by season's end.

[moonslav59]

Vazquez is their most likely scenario for getting good defensive catching with a non-embarrassing level of offensive production.

 

I agree, and he seems best suited to catch 3 of the 5 starters not named Sale or Price-- maybe 100+ games a year.

[moonslav59]

Over small samples, it’s useless.

 

But given a decent sample size, it wouldn’t surprise me if Centeno maintained better numbers than Swihart...

 

Yes, and one problem with CERA is that some use it to compare catchers from different teams- not good.

 

Also, when you have personal caddies like the Sox do, the sample sizes are small or nil for the other catchers.

 

On small sample sizes, yes, they are close to useless, unless one catcher seems to do better than the other(s) for a vast majority of the small sample size pitchers on their team. (Year after year)

[moonslav59]

Or total.

 

And according to Fangraphs, the Sox got less than zilch from their catchers...

 

Yes, but they don't factor in anything related to CERA, and I don't think they count pitch-framing either.

[moonslav59]

So the catchers are only superhuman when it comes to the starters and then fall back to earth when the relievers hit the mound?

 

It's hard to build comfort levels with RP'ers you catch only for a few batters scattered over a season. The Sox use personal caddies for most of their starters, so there is ample time to build a relationship.

[notin]

Yes, but they don't factor in anything related to CERA, and I don't think they count pitch-framing either.

 

That all shows up in the pitchers’ numbers...

[Bellhorn04]

That all shows up in the pitchers’ numbers...

 

Sale's numbers with Leon are crazy good compared to other catchers. Do you think Leon should get some credit for this or not?

[moonslav59]

That all shows up in the pitchers’ numbers...

 

Yes, so if fangraphs gives none of this value to the catcher, then could their numbers be misleading?

[moonslav59]

Sale's numbers with Leon are crazy good compared to other catchers. Do you think Leon should get some credit for this or not?

 

...and some of these sample sizes are huge.

[notin]

Yes, so if fangraphs gives none of this value to the catcher, then could their numbers be misleading?

 

They do have metrics for pitch- framing, but when looking at fWAR, if the catcher steals a strike, credit is given to the pitcher...

[notin]

Sale's numbers with Leon are crazy good compared to other catchers. Do you think Leon should get some credit for this or not?

 

Oh I do.

 

Leon is the one catcher I don’t advocate the Sox getting rid of in whatever fashion. I think they should explore the trade market for Vazquez as well (but I doubt DD does)...

[moonslav59]

They do have metrics for pitch- framing, but when looking at fWAR, if the catcher steals a strike, credit is given to the pitcher...

 

I get that, but I'm asking if you add value to a catcher who does that more than the average catcher does?

[moonslav59]

Oh I do.

 

Leon is the one catcher I don’t advocate the Sox getting rid of in whatever fashion. I think they should explore the trade market for Vazquez as well (but I doubt DD does)...

 

Vaz did very well in pitch framing last year, too. Leon was better, but Vaz was top 10 out of the 60 or so listed.

[cp176]

Vazquez is their most likely scenario for getting good defensive catching with a non-embarrassing level of offensive production.

 

can't argue with this -

[Kimmi]

Nah, I'd be little more subtle than that....

 

So, you're saying you've called me stupid in the past, and I just didn't catch it?

[Kimmi]

Give the young man a break. Maybe he has improved and can make a case for being our 2nd best catcher. I woulod prefer to see him compete in spring training and if he looks ggood to keep him and jettisone one of our other catchers, probably Leon. I know I am in the minority as others and especially Moon is advocating Leon and Vaz.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that Cora seems hesitant to give him the playing time that he needs. Why, I don't know. He's a good athlete and could probably be a very good catcher, but he's been sort of yanked around in our system. I don't think he can get to where he needs to be with the limited playing time that he's been getting.

[Kimmi]

A designation for assignment might be the kindest thing the Red Sox could do for Blake Swihart.

 

I tend to agree with that.

[Kimmi]

Vazquez is their most likely scenario for getting good defensive catching with a non-embarrassing level of offensive production.

 

Amen, brother sk.

[Kimmi]

Yes, so if fangraphs gives none of this value to the catcher, then could their numbers be misleading?

 

Baseball Prospectus ranks catchers defensively by framing runs, fielding runs, blocking runs, caught stealing runs, stealing runs, and throwing runs. Out of 117 ranked catchers in 2018, Leon ranked 7th and Vazquez ranked 14th. Swihart ranked 38th, which is not bad out of 117.

 

As a team, Boston catchers ranked 3rd out of the 30 teams.

 

Those are based on the measurable stats. I think Leon and Vazquez would rank even better when you factor in the intangibles.

 

Regardless, don't mess with a good thing.

[oldtimer]

Baseball Prospectus ranks catchers defensively by framing runs, fielding runs, blocking runs, caught stealing runs, stealing runs, and throwing runs. Out of 117 ranked catchers in 2018, Leon ranked 7th and Vazquez ranked 14th. Swihart ranked 38th, which is not bad out of 117.

 

As a team, Boston catchers ranked 3rd out of the 30 teams.

 

Those are based on the measurable stats. I think Leon and Vazquez would rank even better when you factor in the intangibles.

 

Regardless, don't mess with a good thing.

 

A good thing that can't hit their own weight!

[Bellhorn04]

Baseball Prospectus ranks catchers defensively by framing runs, fielding runs, blocking runs, caught stealing runs, stealing runs, and throwing runs. Out of 117 ranked catchers in 2018, Leon ranked 7th and Vazquez ranked 14th. Swihart ranked 38th, which is not bad out of 117.

 

As a team, Boston catchers ranked 3rd out of the 30 teams.

 

Good stuff.

[Bellhorn04]

Catchers can't hit. It's a scientific fact. All that crouching down kills them.

 

In 2018 the average MLB catcher hit 233/304/374 for an OPS of 678.

[dgalehouse]

Johnny Bench is not walking through that door . Neither is Carlton Fisk . We are doing fine with what we have . This whole thing is getting too crazy .

[Bellhorn04]

It's like the song says:

 

Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be catchers

Don't let 'em wear headgear or squat in the dust

Let 'em be shortstops, left fielders and such

[notin]

A good thing that can't hit their own weight!

 

 

Maybe that’s because catchers are too fat!!

[notin]

Johnny Bench is not walking through that door . Neither is Carlton Fisk . We are doing fine with what we have . This whole thing is getting too crazy .

 

 

Right. Let’s go back to complaining about the bullpen.

 

 

Did you hear DD says he’s done now?

[dgalehouse]

Right. Let’s go back to complaining about the bullpen.

 

 

Did you hear DD says he’s done now?

 

DD is done . Let's hope our chance to repeat is not .

[moonslav59]

Right. Let’s go back to complaining about the bullpen.

 

 

Did you hear DD says he’s done now?

 

Is this like him saying there were no surgeries scheduled?