Hanley Ramirez Option Tracker

[moonslav59]

I have never said the Moreland signing was a great one. I just didn't think it was a horrible one. He got a Chris Young contract to be a backup/insurance first baseman.

 

When Chris Young was signed, there was no Beni. He was expected to play LF a lot. As it turned out, Holt played more LF than aanyone due in part to an injury to Young. Young was also expected to play vs all LHPs as he had killed lefties for 2-3 years beforehand. He ended up not hitting lefties all that well for us, and he became a bench player with Beni's earlier than expected call-up.

 

Moreland has hit RHPs at a pretty decent clip. Prior to HRam's shoulder injuries, Hanley raked lefties. I really thought the only bright spot of the Moreland signing was that he'd play vs most RHPs and his defense might off set the slight difference between his offense vs RHPs and Hram's. I felt HRam needed to earn his PAs vs RHPs. I get why we started HRam opening day, and he's off to a very nice start, so far, but I still think he needs to keep hitting righties well to actually earn the FT 1Bman job.

 

He's not there yet, IMO, but it sounds like he is to many here (noy necessarily you).

 

If HRam is clearly outhitting Moreland vs RHPs, then he will play and play, but Moreland deserves a chance to show what he can do. I know it will be hard to advocate benching HRam even for a game or two, if he keeps getting game-winning RBIs. I'm not for benching HRam right this second, and he's already sat one game, but I would try to get Moreland into some games vs RHPs, so we can have something significant to compare and choose from at some point down the line.

[Jack Flap]

Kimmi, S&C, CP, Thunder, Jad, and I are probably the only Red Sox fans on the planet hoping HanRam has a monstah season and his option vests.

HanRam is a class act and a great ballplayer. he is what every player should try and be. great attitude, loves the game, loves the fans, will do whatever his manager asks him to do without a single peep, and is not afraid of the spotlight.

I hope he vests.

 

You can add me to this crew. Simply put, we're a better team if Hanley is healthy and raking, so you're damn right I'm rooting for that.

 

If it is a close call, I will trust Cora to make the right decision on who to play.

 

Again, I will only have an issue if Hanley is the clear better choice and he is not played for the sole reason of not allowing his option to vest.

 

Agree. Plus, keeping the better player out of the lineup for financial reasons would be an absolutely horrible look for a team with a short window to win it all, and I doubt Cora or anyone on the Red Sox wants any part of that sort of drama.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Jack Flap

[Kimmi]

Signing Hanley was a bad move and still is. It looks good compared to the Panda signing, but still a bad move. There was no position for Hanley to play, and he was coming off injury plagued seasons. Now they have to worry about his option vesting. So the problem remains.

 

As for Hanley, the player, I have no problem with the effort he has made. Injuries have hampered him and his performance has suffered. I don't see him as a key to a championship, but if he produces and stays health he certainly can play an important role. He also seems to be a guy who has fun playing the game, so I think his attitude has a positive effect.

 

Bad signing, good player.

 

I honestly did not have a problem with Hanley's contract, and I'm no fan of big contracts. Hanley was worth 2.9, 4.9, and 3.7 WAR in the 3 years leading up to signing with the Red Sox. That being the case, I didn't think $22 mil for 4 years was a bad signing.

[Kimmi]

Making the playoffs because Ramirez is performing well isn't enough for me to want him on the team next year-we have to have a realistic chance to win a ring. We should have a pretty decent idea (yes, I know nothing is certain once we get into the playoffs) of where we stand relative to the other playoff teams. If we can go DEEP into the playoffs, go for broke. Otherwise, next year we will BE broke.

 

The goal is always to make the playoffs. The playoffs really are a crapshoot because randomness once again plays an important role.

 

If Hanley is hitting well and Moreland is not, Hanley needs to be in the lineup.

[Kimmi]

The economic disaster of HanRam's option vesting is being overstated a bit. Even if it happens, the $22 million comes back for the years 2020 and every year after that.

 

+100

[Kimmi]

Agree. Plus, keeping the better player out of the lineup for financial reasons would be an absolutely horrible look for a team with a short window to win it all, and I doubt Cora or anyone on the Red Sox wants any part of that sort of drama.

 

Agree completely Jack. Even if I were strongly opposed to having Hanley's option vest, I would not want to see my team bench a player who deserves to be in the line up because of financial reasons.

[devildavid]

I honestly did not have a problem with Hanley's contract, and I'm no fan of big contracts. Hanley was worth 2.9, 4.9, and 3.7 WAR in the 3 years leading up to signing with the Red Sox. That being the case, I didn't think $22 mil for 4 years was a bad signing.

 

The money is only one aspect of why it was a bad signing. It was too long of a contract as well. And it was for a player who didn't fill a need at the time and had no position to play. Also, he had a recent history of injuries. I was against the signing at the time, and I haven't changed my mind about it. The only thing I disagree with are fans who think Hanley doesn't try hard enough or has a bad attitude. I just think he was a bad fit from the start and that hasn't really changed. Now they have JD Martinez, another bat they just had to get but who has no real position he can play nor did they need another outfielder. I prefer a roster with more offensive and defensive flexibility.

[S5Dewey]

 

If HRam is clearly outhitting Moreland vs RHPs, then he will play and play, but Moreland deserves a chance to show what he can do. I know it will be hard to advocate benching HRam even for a game or two, if he keeps getting game-winning RBIs. I'm not for benching HRam right this second, and he's already sat one game, but I would try to get Moreland into some games vs RHPs, so we can have something significant to compare and choose from at some point down the line.

 

I don't agree that Moreland "deserves" anything beyond collecting his $6.5M this year and next. He's signed to be a part of the team, probably to play some 1B and do some hitting when the manager says to.

If Hanley keeps hitting like he has been - or anywhere near that - Hanley is the one who deserves to play.

[moonslav59]

I don't agree that Moreland "deserves" anything beyond collecting his $6.5M this year and next. He's signed to be a part of the team, probably to play some 1B and do some hitting when the manager says to.

If Hanley keeps hitting like he has been - or anywhere near that - Hanley is the one who deserves to play.

 

I said, I wasn't for benching HRam now. He's hitting pretty well vs RHPs (.804) and with the game-winning RBIs, I'm fine with playing him for a while.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

It is obviously early, too early to know anything for certain, but all I see right now from Hanley is a guy with an inflated BABIP. No walks, no power. I would keep playing him, in order to get a better read on things, but mixing in a day off here and there (for Moreland) is a good idea too.

[Carbo-Diem]

It is clear that Cora is favoring Ramirez. Moreland is going on a week since his last start and Swihart has 5 AB's in eight games. That is no way to keep guys fresh in case of an injury. It seems the only way Moreland sees any extended playing time is if Hanley gets injured.

[jacksonianmarch]

Looking at the numbers...

 

If the sox allow the option to vest, then the arb raises are added to the budget. The $22 mil was headed towards arb, now it is added. That means, the "savings" from Pom and Kimbrel will be eaten up by the arb raises. This means you'll have to let them walk and replace them either internally or via trade rather than re-sign one of them. Is Hanley worth losing either Kimbrel or Pomeranz?

[Kimmi]

The money is only one aspect of why it was a bad signing. It was too long of a contract as well. And it was for a player who didn't fill a need at the time and had no position to play. Also, he had a recent history of injuries. I was against the signing at the time, and I haven't changed my mind about it. The only thing I disagree with are fans who think Hanley doesn't try hard enough or has a bad attitude. I just think he was a bad fit from the start and that hasn't really changed. Now they have JD Martinez, another bat they just had to get but who has no real position he can play nor did they need another outfielder. I prefer a roster with more offensive and defensive flexibility.

 

I get all of what you are saying, but I disagree. I thought Hanley would be able to play LF decently enough. I also thought that 4 years was reasonable for the WAR that he provided.

[jacksonianmarch]

I don't think anyone should really be looking at whether he should have gotten the contract. That's like Monday morning quarterbacking stock trades from a year ago. What you should be discussing is whether you should let the option vest

[moonslav59]

I don't think anyone should really be looking at whether he should have gotten the contract. That's like Monday morning quarterbacking stock trades from a year ago. What you should be discussing is whether you should let the option vest

 

Well, 134 posts on this thread are doing just that!

[S5Dewey]

Looking at the numbers...

 

If the sox allow the option to vest, then the arb raises are added to the budget. The $22 mil was headed towards arb, now it is added. That means, the "savings" from Pom and Kimbrel will be eaten up by the arb raises. This means you'll have to let them walk and replace them either internally or via trade rather than re-sign one of them. Is Hanley worth losing either Kimbrel or Pomeranz?

 

I appreciate your...er... concern but it could appear to the cynical that you as a Yankee fan would like nothing better than to see a hot Hanley on the bench.

 

To answer the question, to me having Hanley playing a full year is worth losing either Kimbrel or Pom if it means winning a WS. Unfortunately we won't know until October is over whether things worked out that way. In the meantime I'm willing to give this team the best chance they have to win a ring even if it means weakening the 2019 team. You take your opportunities when they come. Just ask the Nats and Strasburg.

[jacksonianmarch]

The thing is, those two goals aren’t mutually exclusive. You could keep Hanley from vesting while also ensuring he’s “healthy” for the playoffs

[moonslav59]

The thing is, those two goals aren’t mutually exclusive. You could keep Hanley from vesting while also ensuring he’s “healthy” for the playoffs

 

That's been my point.... along with HRam not really being all that good vs RHPs and not really deserving being handed the FT job day 1.

 

(I'm glad Cora played him, as his game-winning RBIs have been helpful.)

 

Let him play for a while, but I'd give Moreland some signifiant PAs vs righties at some point.

 

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Looking at the numbers...

 

If the sox allow the option to vest, then the arb raises are added to the budget. The $22 mil was headed towards arb, now it is added. That means, the "savings" from Pom and Kimbrel will be eaten up by the arb raises. This means you'll have to let them walk and replace them either internally or via trade rather than re-sign one of them. Is Hanley worth losing either Kimbrel or Pomeranz?

 

We don't know this at all. Maybe John Henry has already given the go-ahead to let the option vest (on the condition that Hanley hits) and that he is prepared to see the option as a sunk cost for 2019. John Henry is a rich guy--he knows it is a bad contract, but maybe he is willing to absorb it for one more season to avoid playing games with Hanley. In addition, maybe the Red Sox don't intend to resign Pomeranz or Kimbrel and instead plan to make a massive bid on Harper or Machado. In short, we ultimately don't know the Red Sox's spending priorities over the next few seasons; John Henry and Dombrowski aren't going to make that information public.

 

I'm not sure if resigning Pomeranz would be a wise long term decision anyway; that money is probably better spent somewhere else.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

We don't know this at all. Maybe John Henry has already given the go-ahead to let the option vest (on the condition that Hanley hits) and that he is prepared to see the option as a sunk cost for 2019. John Henry is a rich guy--he knows it is a bad contract, but maybe he is willing to absorb it for one more season to avoid playing games with Hanley. In addition, maybe the Red Sox don't intend to resign Pomeranz or Kimbrel and instead plan to make a massive bid on Harper or Machado. In short, we ultimately don't know the Red Sox's spending priorities over the next few seasons; John Henry and Dombrowski aren't going to make that information public.

 

I'm not sure if resigning Pomeranz would be a wise long term decision anyway; that money is probably better spent somewhere else.

 

Even if we don't re-sign Pom, we'll likely need to replace him in kind. Since we don't have the prospects to do that via trade, it will be costly.

 

I do think it's possible Henry will be okay going over the $40M penalty line next year, but then we will be in a major mess going into 2020 with some big stars looking for their major pay day.

[MADSTORK]

Blackmon received 21 million the next 3 yrs for twice the production.

Ramirez with a .750 OPS the last 3 yrs does not warrant a vesting option no matter what the Stats say this summer. I like Ramirez as a person while in Boston but the bottom line is his tenure here in Boston has been a bust.

 

If Ramirez is hitting for power come the deadline you attempt to move him to a contending team before the vesting option becomes an issue if you can?

 

Harper is the big fish next winter as is Donaldson (unless he drops off a cliff) to play 3B moving Devers to 1B with Moreland as your defensive replacement. This Team will be payroll strapped even further if Ramirez is allowed to vest..

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Even if we don't re-sign Pom, we'll likely need to replace him in kind. Since we don't have the prospects to do that via trade, it will be costly.

 

2019 staff:

Sale

Price

Porcello

E-Rod

Wright/Johnson

 

w/J.Beeks as the 7th starter.

Don't see the need for Pomeranz in 2019.

 

I guess you think Price will opt out?

[moonslav59]

2019 staff:

Sale

Price

Porcello

E-Rod

Wright/Johnson

 

w/J.Beeks as the 7th starter.

Don't see the need for Pomeranz in 2019.

 

I guess you think Price will opt out?

 

There's likely goint to be a signifcant drop off from Pom to Wright/Johnson.

 

Notice I used the word "likely" in both posts.

 

I'll br thrilled, if Wright or Johnson grow enough, so we don't need to replace Pom. It would probably allow us to keep Kimbrel or replace him in kind.

 

As of now, I think we'll need to go outside the system to replace Kimbrel and Pom or face a significant drop off in production from their roles in 2019.

[moonslav59]

There's likely goint to be a signifcant drop off from Pom to Wright/Johnson.

 

Notice I used the word "likely" in both posts.

 

I'll br thrilled, if Wright or Johnson grow enough, so we don't need to replace Pom. It would probably allow us to keep Kimbrel or replace him in kind.

 

As of now, I think we'll need to go outside the system to replace Kimbrel and Pom or face a significant drop off in production from their roles in 2019.

 

Price is not opting out.

[Emp9]

2019 staff:

Sale

Price

Porcello

E-Rod

Wright/Johnson

 

w/J.Beeks as the 7th starter.

Don't see the need for Pomeranz in 2019.

 

I guess you think Price will opt out?

 

I was thinking this too, would we really need to replace Pom? I rank Pom, Porcello, Erod, & Wright all pretty closely to each other. Porcello has up & down seasons. Erod has the best stuff and most talent, but health risk. I’ve always been fine with Wright as our 5th Starter. Pom is probably the most talented after ERod, but only a little more healthier. All these guys are question marks, but all of them have the capability to get on a roll and have a great year. Then you have Johnson, Velazquez. Could stretchout Workman for more depth. I’d file Beeks in with Groome under Not Ready Yet.

[moonslav59]

I was thinking this too, would we really need to replace Pom? I rank Pom, Porcello, Erod, & Wright all pretty closely to each other. Porcello has up & down seasons. Erod has the best stuff and most talent, but health risk. I’ve always been fine with Wright as our 5th Starter. Pom is probably the most talented after ERod, but only a little more healthier. All these guys are question marks, but all of them have the capability to get on a roll and have a great year. Then you have Johnson, Velazquez. Could stretchout Workman for more depth. I’d file Beeks in with Groome under Not Ready Yet.

 

Maybe Pom has been "overperforming" his talent level, but without replacing what he has given us in actuality, we will not be as good a team.

 

Can we make up the drop off elsewhere? Sure. I've never said the window closes after this year or even after next year.

 

My point is that we built this team to win in a solid 5 year window (that included 2016 and 2017). If we are planning on losing pom or Kimbrel, so we can keep HRam, then we are saying 2018 is our best chance year (on paper).

[Natick to NC]

If we win a World Series this year with Hanley vesting you can take that moaning and groaning and stuff it ...let's let this player show us just that and then make a judgement....that option is a sunk cost if he's killing it .

[moonslav59]

If we win a World Series this year with Hanley vesting you can take that moaning and groaning and stuff it ...let's let this player show us just that and then make a judgement....that option is a sunk cost if he's killing it .

 

It doesn't have to be an either or choice.

 

We can win it all with HRam being rested and sharp for the playoffs. It might even increase our odds of winning, if HRam does not vest and is fully rested for October.

 

If HRam seems to be an essential factor in us even making the playoffs (or winning the division), and that has yet to be deterined, then yes, we have to make a serious choice about choosing "sunken cost" for 2019 in order to win it all in 2018.

 

What if HRam gets 650 PAs, we win the division, and then he looks tired or burnt out in September and October?

 

Is that a possibility?

 

Do the odds of him getting injured go up by giving him 600+ PAs vs 495?

 

It's not as simple a choice as maybe some think it is. It's not black and white.

[S5Dewey]

It doesn't have to be an either or choice.

 

We can win it all with HRam being rested and sharp for the playoffs. It might even increase our odds of winning, if HRam does not vest and is fully rested for October.

 

If HRam seems to be an essential factor in us even making the playoffs (or winning the division), and that has yet to be deterined, then yes, we have to make a serious choice about choosing "sunken cost" for 2019 in order to win it all in 2018.

 

What if HRam gets 650 PAs, we win the division, and then he looks tired or burnt out in September and October?

 

Is that a possibility?

 

Do the odds of him getting injured go up by giving him 600+ PAs vs 495?

 

It's not as simple a choice as maybe some think it is. It's not black and white.

 

Of course, the number of possibilities are endless. It's possible that we'll have a 10 game lead over the Yankees mid-September so Hanley wouldn't have to play. I'd bet against it, but it's possible.

It's also possible that the Yankees (or any other team) will have a 10 game lead over the Sox in mid-Septemeber so we can sit Hanley to keep his option from vesting. But again, I'd bet against it.

 

It's possible that Hanley gets 650 PA's and is burned out by the time the playoffs start but even if that happens I like our chances of winning the WS more if we make the playoffs than if Hanley doesn't vest and his not vesting keeps us out of the playoffs. (!!)

 

Obviously the chances of Hanley's getting hurt increase with every games he plays. The same can be said for every player. I just don't see that as being a legitimate argument for not playing him if he's playing well.

 

Barring what I see as remote possibilities, if Hanley's playing well and we have a legitimate shot at the playoffs I want him on the field, plain and simple. And I don't care how many PA's he gets.

 

Just as you don't save a pitcher for tomorrow because it might rain tomorrow, you also don't sacrifice a chance at the playoffs this year in anticipation of next year. You don't know what next year will bring.

[Spudboy]

Dewey with the common sense post.

 

I say ride the hottest horses possible for as long as you can. If that horse is Hanley then so be it.

 

The idea is to win now and in the future. Sacrificing the now for the future is not a winning philosophy.