Red Sox To Sign J.D. Martinez

[Emp9]

But protection is not really that subtle of a concept. The premise is pretty simple - the better the hitter behind you, the better the pitches you see, the better your numbers should be. It should show up.

 

I don’t believe I was talking about concept. I’ve already said the concept is a bit over-blown in previous posts. I would argue it’s subtle in practice.

[moonslav59]

No one went off the rails. I just am very, very hesitant to attribute Bradley’s improvement to protection in the lineup. Moonslav has been very diligent most of the year reminding us Bradley is hitting the ball well and the hot streak is coming...

 

Yes, JBJ had great "protection" when he was at .510, too.

[S5Dewey]

Yes, JBJ had great "protection" when he was at .510, too.

 

..which was before he altered his approach and started going the other way more.

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t believe I was talking about concept. I’ve already said the concept is a bit over-blown in previous posts. I would argue it’s subtle in practice.

 

Sorry if I mischaracterized what you were saying. My comments are just sort of general musings on the topic.

[moonslav59]

..which was before he altered his approach and started going the other way more.

 

While true, he was hitting the ball pretty hard when at .510, too.

 

JBJ is still pulling the ball, now. They are just falling for hits or going over the fences.

 

 

[S5Dewey]

While true, he was hitting the ball pretty hard when at .510, too.

 

JBJ is still pulling the ball, now. They are just falling for hits or going over the fences.

 

 

 

Are you watching the same games I'm watching? I see more hits going to LC now that he's going that way.

[Bellhorn04]

..which was before he altered his approach and started going the other way more.

 

So the improvement in his approach would seem to be a more logical explanation than anything else, wouldn't it?

[moonslav59]

Are you watching the same games I'm watching? I see more hits going to LC now that he's going that way.

 

I don't see a significant amount going to LC, but yes, more than earlier in the year.

 

They still play the shift on him, so the opps haven't felt he's going the other way enough to change their strategies.

[cp176]

There will always be players who doubt the relevance, like Jayson WErth. But for every Jayson Werth, there are numerous Josh Redddick's and Joey Votto's and Todd Frasier's who do buy into a lot of the new data and use it to improve their game...

 

no one is questioning the relevance of how using how any data can help. Maybe i am misreading what players like Martinez and others are saying about the infusion or maybe intrusion of too much information being sent their way. For every player like JD Martinez there will be others who share his views that possibly too much emphasis is being placed on the data and the people gathering it as well. It is all useful but I guess I will just stick with what Martinez has to say.

[a700hitter]

And Amos Otis was 100% convinced corking bats helped him hit home runs, despite all the laws of physics that state otherwise. And Jack McDowell is 100% convinced pitch counts don’t matter, despite all the evidence to the contrary. But, hey, these guys played in MLB so they must be right...

Then why are corked bats are illegal?

[a700hitter]

I understand where the players are coming from. Concepts like clutch, protection, etc. are very powerful ideas and are easy to buy into. Then confirmation bias all but seals the deal. As a softball player, I believed in those things myself. I experienced clutch and protection, among other intangibles, as many here have.

 

Eck is 100% sure that fastballs rise, and he should know better than any of us because he was a major league pitcher. Right?

The Laws of physics are immutable. It is science. There are no anomalies. Statistics when applied to human performance is not the same type of science. Compared to physics, statistics in baseball might as well be voodoo.

[notin]

Compared to physics, statistics in baseball might as well be voodoo.

 

Baseball statistics are really a numerical summary of past performance...

[notin]

Then why are corked bats are illegal?

 

Because it involves tampering with equipment, which is illegal in every sport.

 

There are ways a bat could be tampered with to increase batted ball distance. Cork isn’t one of those materials. (Although as it is less dense than wood, the reduced weight of the bat might lead to increased bat speed, which would be good. But if this is the case, a hitter should consider the perfectly legal maneuver of using a lighter bat)...

[Bellhorn04]

Baseball statistics are really a numerical summary of past performance...

 

Sure. But I assume proving or disproving whether a fastball can rise can be done pretty conclusively with empirical science.

 

Whereas the attempt to prove or disprove whether clutch or protection exist with statistics has produced numerous extensive studies that have not come up with anything conclusive.

[Kimmi]

Sure. But I assume proving or disproving whether a fastball can rise can be done pretty conclusively with empirical science.

 

Whereas the attempt to prove or disprove whether clutch or protection exist with statistics has produced numerous extensive studies that have not come up with anything conclusive.

 

That's fair, though I don't think it matters to my point.

 

Eck is 100% sure of something that can be proved conclusively to be not true. The point is players believe things because that's the way they've always thought. If Eck can be so wrong about something that is a fact, then MLB players can certainly be very wrong about their beliefs in protection.

 

That said, saying that the studies have not come up with anything conclusive is a little misleading.

[Bellhorn04]

That's fair, though I don't think it matters to my point.

 

Eck is 100% sure of something that can be proved conclusively to be not true. The point is players believe things because that's the way they've always thought. If Eck can be so wrong about something that is a fact, then MLB players can certainly be very wrong about their beliefs in protection.

 

But I think the 'rising fastball' basically falls into the category of an optical illusion, rather than a denial or misinterpretation of statistical evidence.

[Kimmi]

But I think the 'rising fastball' basically falls into the category of an optical illusion, rather than a denial or misinterpretation of statistical evidence.

 

OK, but it's still a player believing something that simply isn't true, pointing out that players can be wrong about things, even things that they have a lot of experience with.

 

I am just arguing against the idea that if the players believe it, then it must be true or that it must have a lot of validity. If there were no data supporting either opinion, then absolutely, you go with the players who are playing the game.

 

When the data supports very strongly one opinion over the other, you go with the data.

[SoxHop]

OK, but it's still a player believing something that simply isn't true, pointing out that players can be wrong about things, even things that they have a lot of experience with.

 

I am just arguing against the idea that if the players believe it, then it must be true or that it must have a lot of validity. If there were no data supporting either opinion, then absolutely, you go with the players who are playing the game.

 

When the data supports very strongly one opinion over the other, you go with the data.

 

Still blows my mind the amount of shifts being used now a days. I guess it took about a century of playing and watching the game for people to figure that one out. Old dogs can learn new tricks if they are open to learning.

[cp176]

Still blows my mind the amount of shifts being used now a days. I guess it took about a century of playing and watching the game for people to figure that one out. Old dogs can learn new tricks if they are open to learning.

 

I find this interesting too. Although shifts have been used for a long time now they certainly are used to a much greater extent. What confuses me quite a lot though is that there is a lot of clamor about doing something to reign them in. I'm am an old school guy but yet I have absolutely no problem with shifts. Maybe it will usher back in a time when hitters have to think about what they are doing as opposed to just trying to bash the ball. Robots and replay - Nope Shifts - sure bring them on.

[Kimmi]

Still blows my mind the amount of shifts being used now a days. I guess it took about a century of playing and watching the game for people to figure that one out. Old dogs can learn new tricks if they are open to learning.

 

One of the things that Cora said before the season started that has stuck with me is the importance of explaining the analytics to the players in such a way that they will buy into it. He even hired a guy, whose job title I can't remember, for this specific purpose.

 

Getting pitchers to be 'okay' with looking behind them and seeing some extreme shifts if one of these things.

[OH FOY]

I would think a Shift helps a hitter. Tells him how Pitcher is going to Pitch him. Almost like stealing signs. The Defense is on Left side, so you know the Pitcher wants the inner half of the plate, it don't matter Fastball or Curveball, the Pitcher has to throw the ball to utilize the Defense. Hitters not thinking today, and smart hitter would hit Pitchers mistakes, which would be outer half of plate, where there is no Defense. Eventually some smart hitting Coach will see, hitting to all Fields makes you a better hitter all around. Not just because of Defense, it makes hitters better. Pitchers can't pitch you one way.

If all you are is a one dimensional hitter (pull hitter), your really not that good of a hitter anyway. Mostly stupid, too.

Edited August 20, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

I would think a Shift helps a hitter. Tells him how Pitcher is going to Pitch him. Almost like stealing signs. The Defense is on Left side, so you know the Pitcher wants the inner half of the plate, it don't matter Fastball or Curveball, the Pitcher has to throw the ball to utilize the Defense. Hitters not thinking today, and smart hitter would hit Pitchers mistakes, which would be outer half of plate, where there is no Defense. Eventually some smart hitting Coach will see, hitting to all Fields makes you a better hitter all around. Not just because of Defense, it makes hitters better. Pitchers can't pitch you one way.

If all you are is a one dimensional hitter (pull hitter), your really not that good of a hitter anyway.

 

But wasn't Ted Williams essentially a dead pull hitter who advocated being a pull hitter?

[OH FOY]

I figured someone would hit me with Williams. Exception. How many Ted Williams play today?

Here's something on Boudreau's shift with Williams.

http://joeposnanski.com/the-boudreau-shift/

Did you ever see him play? I did, at his end of career, lucky still above the ground. haha

 

Edit: He advocated it? I remember Reading "My Turn at Bat", I don't remember that. Only become a pull hitter? I still have the book, have to read it again, to refresh my memory. You could be right.

I do remember when Williams was Manager of the Senators saying what works for Frank Howard, wont work with Ed Brinkman.

Edited August 20, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Slasher9]

 

I am just arguing against the idea that if the players believe it, then it must be true or that it must have a lot of validity.

 

which goes back to hitting a baseball is just as much mental as it is physical. if a player "believes" he has "protection" then guess what? he is more confident when stepping in the box and has "protection".

im not sure why people fail to understand the concept.

[notin]

which goes back to hitting a baseball is just as much mental as it is physical. if a player "believes" he has "protection" then guess what? he is more confident when stepping in the box and has "protection".

im not sure why people fail to understand the concept.

 

Mostly because the idea of protection is to get into the pitcher's mind that he has to throw strikes and not put runners on base for the protecting hitter.

 

As for baseball being mental, certainly that is easy to believe. But it is also easy to believe that most, if not all major leaguers do not lack confidence in any regard, as many have been told how great they are since childhood and have likely come to believe it by now. The mere act of getting to the majors is probably almost impossible for any player who doesn't have complete confidence in himself, regardless of his role and career. I'm not sure why that concept always goes overlooked...

[Slasher9]

Mostly because the idea of protection is to get into the pitcher's mind that he has to throw strikes and not put runners on base for the protecting hitter.

 

As for baseball being mental, certainly that is easy to believe. But it is also easy to believe that most, if not all major leaguers do not lack confidence in any regard, as many have been told how great they are since childhood and have likely come to believe it by now. The mere act of getting to the majors is probably almost impossible for any player who doesn't have complete confidence in himself, regardless of his role and career. I'm not sure why that concept always goes overlooked...

then it's weird that boggs ate chicken before every game.

it's weird nomar did that batting glove thing before every pitch.

it's bizarre that JDM (perhaps the best hitter in MLB this season) does that bizarro kiss his thumb touch his chest before every pitch.

surely everyone has told these boys just how great they are. why do they feel they need to do such idiotic things to hit a baseball?

to think doubts dont creep into a MLB players head because his ass was kissed in high school is being a bit naive IMO....

[Bellhorn04]

then it's weird that boggs ate chicken before every game.

it's weird nomar did that batting glove thing before every pitch.

it's bizarre that JDM (perhaps the best hitter in MLB this season) does that bizarro kiss his thumb touch his chest before every pitch.

surely everyone has told these boys just how great they are. why do they feel they need to do such idiotic things to hit a baseball?

to think doubts dont creep into a MLB players head because his ass was kissed in high school is being a bit naive IMO....

 

But with the protection thing, the numbers just don't show hitters doing better in relation to how good the hitter behind them is - no matter whether it makes them feel better at the plate or not.

 

Theory is one thing and hard cold numbers are another.

[illinoisredsox]

Sure. But I assume proving or disproving whether a fastball can rise can be done pretty conclusively with empirical science.

 

Whereas the attempt to prove or disprove whether clutch or protection exist with statistics has produced numerous extensive studies that have not come up with anything conclusive.

 

I remember seeing some paper that theoretically a ball could rise. It involved some combination of velocity and spin rate so as to overcome the effects of gravity and drag (air friction). Chapman has the velocity to do it but he can’t generate the spin rate and at his spin rate, he would have to be able to throw over 110.

 

Now if a submariner could somehow generate enough velocity, he MIGHT be able to do it. Was it Bradshaw who almost scraped the ground with his delivery?

[Slasher9]

2017 Boston Red Sox vs 2018 Boston Red Sox

[SoxnCycles]

2017 Boston Red Sox vs 2018 Boston Red Sox

 

it's weird nomar did that batting glove thing before every pitch.

 

Weird? Not really.

Annoying as hell? Absolutely!