Stanton or Votto

[notin]

Boo freakin who. You’re crying inequity here yet your team is going to spend more than $30 mil more than the Yankees are looking to spend. Look in the mirror

 

LOL

 

The Yankees might not be the biggest spenders on the block for the first time since Kirby Puckett started rolling that free agent ball downhill and their fans are ready to scream back on how its all even now.

 

Of course they'll probably still outspend everyone else again...

[Slasher9]

Boo freakin who. You’re crying inequity here yet your team is going to spend more than $30 mil more than the Yankees are looking to spend. Look in the mirror

 

Let me know when a former Sox hof player makes completely one sided trades of one of the greatest current players from whatever clubs he happens to own to the Red Sox.. ill wait. It will be long time because we don't have as scummy of scumbags like the MFY

[Spudboy]

Let me know when a former Sox hof player makes completely one sided trades of one of the greatest current players from whatever clubs he happens to own to the Red Sox.. ill wait. It will be long time because we don't have as scummy of scumbags like the MFY

 

In defense of Jeter he did bang Miriah Carey!

[jacksonianmarch]

LOL

 

The Yankees might not be the biggest spenders on the block for the first time since Kirby Puckett started rolling that free agent ball downhill and their fans are ready to scream back on how its all even now.

 

Of course they'll probably still outspend everyone else again...

 

We haven’t been the biggest spenders on the block in years. The dodgers have had that mantle for 3 years now I think.

[Jack Flap]

Stanton wanted to play in New York and (apparently) not in Boston...I think that's really the only story here. The money would not have kept us from acquiring him if he'd wanted to come.

 

And while the Jeter cracks are fun, what kind of a joke of an executive would he be if he was making decisions based on what was best for his old club rather than the one he now works for and represents? The Marlins got a s***** deal because, between wanting to dump the contract and having to contend with the no-trade clause, they had no leverage and Giancarlo essentially forced them to send him where he wanted and take whatever they could get...to suggest that better offers were left on the table because Jeter wanted to do the Yankees a solid just doesn't seem realistic to me.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Jack Flap

[jacksonianmarch]

The reported Dodgers offer was AdGon and Kazmir for Stanton and $30 mil. At least Castro is dealable.

[S5Dewey]

We went through a period in the early 2000s where a team like the Yankees could essentially outspend everyone and buy their way into the playoffs every year. This happened in the late 1990s too--the Yankees economic advantages were a key reason behind their success and allowed them to bring in guys like Clemons, D.Cone. Other teams couldn't afford such players.

 

Then we went through a period where economic inequality (in baseball) didn't seem to be such a factor in determining success. Even some of the small market clubs were getting billions in TV revenue and thus could afford quality free agents or could afford to give extensions to their top players.

 

But now, we seem to be entering into a period that resembles the early 2000s with big market teams shelling out (or taking on) huge contracts while small market teams aren't serious contenders for top available talent. As a result, the big market teams will be more successful, will dominate the smaller markets in the standings. Last year, three of the biggest spenders made the playoffs: Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox. All three teams will likely make it again in 2018.

 

This is the difference between the NFL and MLB. The NFL has a better system--they share revenues and have a salary cap and this makes the NFL more competitive. Whereas in MLB, you can pretty much buy yourself a playoff appearance through outspending the competition.

 

Brian Cashman will never get the credit he arguably deserves unless he goes somewhere else and succeeds. As everyone knows, Cashman's success as a front office executive is largely based on the Yankees outspending the competition. For example, the Yankees don't win a championship in 2009 if they can't afford Sabathia and Texiera, not to mention the huge contract the Yankees gave A-Rod after the 2007 season. A-Rod was on juice during the 2009 championship run--he hit really well in the playoffs that year especially against the Twins.

 

MLB knows that everything you said here is true, and they're trying to get some sort of parity into the game. They first tried by instituting the Luxury Tax (otherwise known as the Competitive Balance Tax) and now they are including a revenue sharing penalty. However, they recognize that some teams with large revenue streams see these financial penalties as simply the cost of a player's salary and something the team can afford so these penalties are being pretty much ignored. As dgalenouse rightfully implies, there's a bajillion dollars floating around out there in MLB so the money doesn't mean that much to the owners who've figured out that winning increases their revenue stream.

 

Now MLB has also instituted a draft pick penalty as well as controlling how much a team can pay draftees, and a limit on how much a team can pay international signings. We'll have to wait to see how that shakes out.

 

The real problem IMO (and it pains me to say this since I spent 40 years in a labor union) is that the MLBPA has too much clout. Unlike in the NFL, the MLB owners are dancing to the union's tune - and for a very good reason. The owners have a cash cow in front of them and they know that a player's strike would hurt them (the owners) where it would hurt the most. Right in their pocketbooks.

 

So life goes on.

[Bellhorn04]

The real issue here may be the new Marlins owner Sherman. I've been hearing some rumblings that the guy is a total sleazeball and that Jeter is basically just his frontman. If that's the case, MLB is at fault for authorizing the sale, and it would mean that Sherman is the newest in a rogues' gallery of Marlins owners after Huizenga and Loria.

[cp176]

Stanton wanted to play in New York and (apparently) not in Boston...I think that's really the only story here. The money would not have kept us from acquiring him if he'd wanted to come.

 

And while the Jeter cracks are fun, what kind of a joke of an executive would he be if he was making decisions based on what was best for his old club rather than the one he now works for and represents? The Marlins got a s***** deal because, between wanting to dump the contract and having to contend with the no-trade clause, they had no leverage and Giancarlo essentially forced them to send him where he wanted and take whatever they could get...to suggest that better offers were left on the table because Jeter wanted to do the Yankees a solid just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

I understand what you are saying here and it is the highroad. It is logical. I 'm just a little hesitant to buy into the theory that New York was his choice of destination.

[Bellhorn04]

No matter how much we hear about baseball being a business , we still seem to forget it. It really is a business . A business that is very profitable for the owners , executives , players , agents , etc. We fans pay the freight for it all. We say nonsensical things like " I hope " we " don't overpay for so and so. " What fools we can be. We take out our anger and frustration by venting in stadiums , at home and in forums such as this. We call them names like "scumbags " . But we always come back for more. Professional athletes are part of the entertainment industry. Just like those Hollywood Prima donnas . Of course they are overpaid egotists. But we are the ones who feed their overpaid egos. Please spare me/us the outrage over a guy like Stanton signing with the Yankees. That is the way it goes. Get over it. P.T. Barnum said , " There's a sucker born every minute " . How true. And we are the suckers. But we seem to love it.

 

I agree with most of this, dgalehouse. As I've gotten older it has really sunk in on me how much human beings need their entertainment and how much they are willing to pay for it - especially to see top of the line performers. People will shell out a couple grand for scalped tickets to a big game. It's crazy alright, but like you say it's what we are.

[Bellhorn04]

I understand what you are saying here and it is the highroad. It is logical. I 'm just a little hesitant to buy into the theory that New York was his choice of destination.

 

I think it's totally plausible that Stanton narrowed his list down to Yanks/Dodgers/Cubs/Astros. He was sick of playing for a loser, he wants to go for a ring and these are the teams that gave him the best chance.

 

The stars just kind of aligned for the Evil Ones.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dewey, the new penalties are far harsher and involve damaging your internal development of talent. With steroids mostly out of the game, players don't play at prime levels into their late 30s anymore. With the smaller market teams taking up front risk to lower contract demands later, we aren't seeing prime free agents hit the market in their mid 20s anymore. Hence, free agency is turning into a really bad method of filling a team as most FAs are early 30s and likely have 2-3 years of prime while you are paying them for 7 years and will eat it on the back end. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The sox were the first large market team to see this and their development machine kicked in after the 2004 title. That title developed solid talent enough to put the 2007 title winning team together and to build a core of home grown players that allowed you to win another title in 2013. The Yankees saw this and unfortunately were already tied into massive contracts that made their ability to shed salary and rebuild unlikely, but they did develop their system to where they are now.

 

Fast forward to now and the best method to build your team either via trade or homegrown is to develop talent. The large market teams can develop talent and then deal it off for higher priced assets (like we did with Stanton, Robertson, Frazier, Gray to an extent, etc). But the importance here is the development of talent. Now, signing a QO free agent hurts more for large market clubs. With the slotting of the draft, losing a 1st rounder crushed your draft so they scrapped that. But losing a 2nd and a 5th rounder plus taking a big hit in the INTL market means 2 less higher value draft picks, losing the extra slot funds to sign a later round HS talent and also losing funds that could be distributed to 3 or 4 good INTL signees. It is no longer just a 1 for 1 deal. Now, signing a QO FA and being over the lux tax as a large market club entails the possibility to sign that one player and lose up to 7 players you had your eyes on in the amateur realm. Add in the extra funds being over the lux tax and the impending chance to have your 1st rounder dropped 10 slots for being over the top limit hurts you further. The penalties don't sound as bad on their face, but they are really onerous, especially for any large market club intending on developing talent from within

[Slasher9]

f***.

can we delete this thread from existence.

f***.

[mvp 78]

f***.

can we delete this thread from existence.

f***.

 

This is why we need additional mods.

[Jack Flap]

It probably should have been renamed or merged to begin with, since Votto has never really come up as a legitimate option and this ended up being 98% about Stanton anyway.

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

 

The Stanton trade moved the Yankees from 43.5 projected WAR to 46.8. Not yet close to the Astros, but jumped them over the Red Sox and Guardians.

[OH FOY]

Best WAR, Vegas. Current Odds for World Series Champs.

http://www.oddsshark.com/mlb/mlb-odds-world-series-futures

 

Vegas has the Yanks to win the WS, after Stanton Trade.

Edited December 11, 2017 by OH FOY!

[S5Dewey]

Dewey, the new penalties are far harsher and involve damaging your internal development of talent. With steroids mostly out of the game, players don't play at prime levels into their late 30s anymore. With the smaller market teams taking up front risk to lower contract demands later, we aren't seeing prime free agents hit the market in their mid 20s anymore. Hence, free agency is turning into a really bad method of filling a team as most FAs are early 30s and likely have 2-3 years of prime while you are paying them for 7 years and will eat it on the back end. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The sox were the first large market team to see this and their development machine kicked in after the 2004 title. That title developed solid talent enough to put the 2007 title winning team together and to build a core of home grown players that allowed you to win another title in 2013. The Yankees saw this and unfortunately were already tied into massive contracts that made their ability to shed salary and rebuild unlikely, but they did develop their system to where they are now.

 

Fast forward to now and the best method to build your team either via trade or homegrown is to develop talent. The large market teams can develop talent and then deal it off for higher priced assets (like we did with Stanton, Robertson, Frazier, Gray to an extent, etc). But the importance here is the development of talent. Now, signing a QO free agent hurts more for large market clubs. With the slotting of the draft, losing a 1st rounder crushed your draft so they scrapped that. But losing a 2nd and a 5th rounder plus taking a big hit in the INTL market means 2 less higher value draft picks, losing the extra slot funds to sign a later round HS talent and also losing funds that could be distributed to 3 or 4 good INTL signees. It is no longer just a 1 for 1 deal. Now, signing a QO FA and being over the lux tax as a large market club entails the possibility to sign that one player and lose up to 7 players you had your eyes on in the amateur realm. Add in the extra funds being over the lux tax and the impending chance to have your 1st rounder dropped 10 slots for being over the top limit hurts you further. The penalties don't sound as bad on their face, but they are really onerous, especially for any large market club intending on developing talent from within

 

Yes. This is pretty much what I was saying, and you added details. Thanks.

[moonslav59]

Best WAR, Vegas. Current Odds for World Series Champs.

http://www.oddsshark.com/mlb/mlb-odds-world-series-futures

 

Vegas has the Yanks to win the WS, after Stanton Trade.

 

Let's see what the odds are after everyone is finished adding to their rosters.

[Hugh2]

Sometimes things look nice on paper but the ultimate test will be the 162 game season.

 

It's definitely intimidating to see a team like the Yankees go out and get a guy like Stanton. However, I thought the Sox would be unbeatable after they went out and got Crawford and Gonzelez and that team performed much worse than anyone would have guessed looking at that roster on paper before game 1 of the season.

[Hugh2]

Also lets see how things look after the offseason has been completed. There is easily room for improvement in this line up as is. A lot of guys were playing through injuries and underperformed. I expect DD to get a big bat, and I think it also wouldn't hurt to look at a relief pitcher who can shut down righties.

[dgalehouse]

I agree with most of this, dgalehouse. As I've gotten older it has really sunk in on me how much human beings need their entertainment and how much they are willing to pay for it - especially to see top of the line performers. People will shell out a couple grand for scalped tickets to a big game. It's crazy alright, but like you say it's what we are.

 

Yeah. It seems crazy , but that is how it is. Sometimes people will even forego spending on seemingly more important things in order to have money for entertainment. I guess if it means that much to your happiness , then it is worth it. But we need to remember that baseball players , and all professional athletes , are part of the entertainment industry. It is not the least bit surprising that a guy like Stanton would sign with the Yankees. Meanwhile , Sox fans are glum and cursing , while Yankee fans are ecstatic. All of that could change before too long.

[Emp9]

Kinda glad we didn't get into a prospect bidding war with the Yanks (or any other team for that matter) over Stanton. I liked Stanton a lot, but I wanted him 2 years before he signed that extension. I'm slowly catching back up with all the posts (been spending my free time watching the Celtics and ... Mr. Robot). What's the general consensus on what the Yanks gave up to get Stanton? Was it about right? Not enough?. I heard other teams offered more.

[Bellhorn04]

Kinda glad we didn't get into a prospect bidding war with the Yanks (or any other team for that matter) over Stanton. I liked Stanton a lot, but I wanted him 2 years before he signed that extension. I'm slowly catching back up with all the posts (been spending my free time watching the Celtics and ... Mr. Robot). What's the general consensus on what the Yanks gave up to get Stanton? Was it about right? Not enough?. I heard other teams offered more.

 

The Yanks gave up next to nothing to get Stanton. It appears the Giants and Cardinals made better offers but it was all for naught because Stanton didn't want to play for them and he had full no-trade rights.

 

It was a perfect storm for the Yanks.

[Slasher9]

there was also this scumbag named derek jeter that was pulling Giancarlo's strings.......

f***.

[Jack Flap]

"Boston was never presented to us as an option," Stanton's agent Joel Wolfe said here. "To my knowledge, Boston never had any interest. Not that they don't love him as a player. They never tried to make a deal with the Marlins."

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2017/12/boston_red_sox_never_tried_to.html

 

Welp...this is kind of what I was afraid of.

[mvp 78]

@PeteAbe

 

"I never had a thought on it," Stanton said when asked if the Red Sox were ever a consideration.

[Slasher9]

DD has some 'splainin to do.......

[moonslav59]

@PeteAbe

 

"I never had a thought on it," Stanton said when asked if the Red Sox were ever a consideration.

 

Wonder if that is because nobody ever inquired.

[Jack Flap]

DD has some 'splainin to do.......

 

Yup...