Fire alex cora

[Kimmi]

I couldn't agree more, but I will say, I think the team DD built for 2019 should have been competitive, if not highly competitive. The players (and coaches) were part of the problem, too.

 

Most of us felt he put a damn good team on the field, this year, so I find it hard to throw all the blame on DD.

 

I'm more upset about our future outlook than the under performance of the 2019 Red Sox team.

 

I pretty much agree with this. The 2019 team should have been competitive, and Dombrowski should not be blamed for the team's performance.

[Kimmi]

Yeah, plus that 4 championships thing.

 

I have no complaints.

 

The only criticism that I have about Henry is his tendency to react rashly when it comes to GMs.

[notin]

Nobody wants to pay tax, especially the higher penalties. Even the Yankees reset.

 

Ditto the Dodgers...

[notin]

The only criticism that I have about Henry is his tendency to react rashly when it comes to GMs.

 

Not really.

 

He fired two so far. But Epstein and Cherington quit on their own...

[notin]

I pretty much agree with this. The 2019 team should have been competitive, and Dombrowski should not be blamed for the team's performance.

 

I think of it as his being blamed for the team’s inability to change much once things went south. He depleted (better, Bellhorn?) the farm and saddled the Sox with numerous long term expensive deals on players who are only going to get older...

[cp176]

JH is tired of paying "tax". wealthy people hate paying "tax". that "tax" is coming directly from his bank account. his young wife does not appreciate her husband paying "tax". all the signs have been pointing to a reset since we first jumped over the LT threshold a few seasons ago. the cliff is real. and i do not blame the owner 1 bit for resetting so he doesnt have to pay "tax" on an enormous payroll.

all wealthy people can afford to pay "tax". but will they do everything in their power to avoid paying it? your goddamn right they do.

i fail to see why you dont get this concept and continue to bash JH for not wanting to pay "tax"....

 

Wait - I absolutely get the concept to which you refer. I absolutely abhor the socialist trends that some are advocating for.

[cp176]

Ok - I think that i get it now - John henry is our hero and anyone who works for him sucks when the players do not perform.

Just trying to sort things out. Sounds good - i'm ready to roll. I get everything that you are saying. i absolutely do not want to see the wealthy pay more than they should from percentage standpoint. I am so on board with this. I am ready to become a tea member this board. I am a red blooded capitalist all the way - sincerely.

[moonslav59]

Sox Long Term Deals and Ages of Players' Last Seasons:

 

Yrs Player (last year) age of player in last year (first day)

8 Pedroia ('21) 37

7 Price ('22) 36

6 Bogaerts ('25 + option '26) 32

5 Sale ('24 + option'25) 34

5 JD M ('22 if no opt out) 34

4 Porcello ('19) 30

4 Eovaldi ('22) 32

3 Vazquez ('21 + option '22) 30

 

 

[moonslav59]

Sox Long Term Deals and Ages of Players' Last Seasons:

 

Yrs Player (last year) age of player in last year (first day)

8 Pedroia ('21) 37

7 Price ('22) 36

6 Bogaerts ('25 + option '26) 32

5 Sale ('24 + option'25) 34

5 JD M ('22 if no opt out) 34

4 Porcello ('19) 30

4 Eovaldi ('22) 32

3 Vazquez ('21 + option '22) 30

 

 

 

Nobody signed since Price is signed beyond age 34.

[S5Dewey]

I pretty much agree with this. The 2019 team should have been competitive, and Dombrowski should not be blamed for the team's performance.

 

When I hear posters say that DD deserved to get fired I want to ask a couple of questions.

 

1) What do you think the job of a GM is in the off season?

 

2) Where did DD fail at that?

 

If someone asked me that I'd say that the job of the GM is to build a team that, on paper, should and could contend for a World Series Championship.

 

Where did he fail at that? He didn't. The biggest "crime" he can be accused of is not having his Magic 8 Ball calibrated properly so it would point out over the winter that our pitching staff would implode.

[moonslav59]

When I hear posters say that DD deserved to get fired I want to ask a couple of questions.

 

1) What do you think the job of a GM is in the off season?

 

2) Where did DD fail at that?

 

If someone asked me that I'd say that the job of the GM is to build a team that, on paper, should and could contend for a World Series Championship.

 

Where did he fail at that? He didn't. The biggest "crime" he can be accused of is not having his Magic 8 Ball calibrated properly so it would point out over the winter that our pitching staff would implode.

 

I guess one thing is not rankling your bosses.

 

One could be losing this year while outspending some teams 4 or 5 fold.

 

One could be the condition of the farm.

 

Probably a little of all of the above.

 

To me, I think they saw a rebuild as the best plan for 2020 and beyond, and they didn't think DD is the GM for that.

 

I liked DD. I like Tito.

 

Both left when they had to leave.

[Bellhorn04]

When I hear posters say that DD deserved to get fired I want to ask a couple of questions.

 

1) What do you think the job of a GM is in the off season?

 

2) Where did DD fail at that?

 

If someone asked me that I'd say that the job of the GM is to build a team that, on paper, should and could contend for a World Series Championship.

 

Where did he fail at that? He didn't. The biggest "crime" he can be accused of is not having his Magic 8 Ball calibrated properly so it would point out over the winter that our pitching staff would implode.

 

Like it or not, the work of a GM tends to get judged in hindsight.

 

And in hindsight, DD did a pretty poor job this year.

 

He signed Eovaldi and Pearce and that was basically it.

 

He did next to nothing about starting pitching depth or the bullpen.

 

And he put us in a position where the late season 'additions' to the lineup were Gorkys and Owings.

 

I suspect that Henry was comparing this to what Cashman did, which was to provide incredible depth to a team that was decimated by injuries but still ran away with the division.

[Elktonnick]

Like it or not, the work of a GM tends to get judged in hindsight.

 

And in hindsight, DD did a pretty poor job this year.

 

He signed Eovaldi and Pearce and that was basically it.

 

He did next to nothing about starting pitching depth or the bullpen.

 

And he put us in a position where the late season 'additions' to the lineup were Gorkys and Owings.

 

I suspect that Henry was comparing this to what Cashman did, which was to provide incredible depth to a team that was decimated by injuries but still ran away with the division.

 

Once again if you simply take the Red Sox at their word (sometimes it is difficult to do) DD wasn't fired for his failures to rebuild the farm. etc He was fired for his leadership style specifically he isolated himself from the rest of the baseball operations staff and minor league managers. I take that to mean he pissed too many people off.

[cp176]

Like it or not, the work of a GM tends to get judged in hindsight.

 

And in hindsight, DD did a pretty poor job this year.

 

He signed Eovaldi and Pearce and that was basically it.

 

He did next to nothing about starting pitching depth or the bullpen.

 

And he put us in a position where the late season 'additions' to the lineup were Gorkys and Owings.

 

I suspect that Henry was comparing this to what Cashman did, which was to provide incredible depth to a team that was decimated by injuries but still ran away with the division.

 

i agree with this unfortunately this guy gets judged in part because of the injuries that could not be overcome. i do think that he likely should have tried at least to do a little more with that bullpen. I am just going to stand pat on my feelings about an ownership that continues to make money on the backs of the fan base while at the same time cutting payroll to stay below a certain number well knowing that it could be at the expense of the product being put out there on the field. I probably would be doing the same thing but i don't think that I would feel good about doing it.

[cp176]

Once again if you simply take the Red Sox at their word (sometimes it is difficult to do) DD wasn't fired for his failures to rebuild the farm. etc He was fired for his leadership style specifically he isolated himself from the rest of the baseball operations staff and minor league managers. I take that to mean he pissed too many people off.

 

 

This at least makes sense. If I am the owner and what you say is accurate, then the firing had to happen.

[Bellhorn04]

Once again if you simply take the Red Sox at their word (sometimes it is difficult to do) DD wasn't fired for his failures to rebuild the farm. etc He was fired for his leadership style specifically he isolated himself from the rest of the baseball operations staff and minor league managers. I take that to mean he pissed too many people off.

 

We'll never know all the exact reasons. I suspect it was a combo of all the ones we're discussing.

[notin]

Where did he fail at that? He didn't. The biggest "crime" he can be accused of is not having his Magic 8 Ball calibrated properly so it would point out over the winter that our pitching staff would implode.

 

Well, did he really need one?

 

Chris Sale was injured last year and barely pitched in the second half.

 

Nathan Eovaldi has thrown 235 IP in the three previous seasons combined.

 

Was seeing either of them missing significant time really a surprise?

 

Was signing them for a combined $200mill (especially after seeing Price struggle with health issues in year 2 of a 7 year contract) really a wise move?

 

It didn’t require hindsight to see the enormous question marks on these deals.

 

And this isn’t the first time Dombrowski has done this. He stuck the Tigers with Miguel Cabrera, whom they still owe $124mill to.

 

Sometimes I wonder if Dombrowski realizes players do get older...

[Bellhorn04]

I am just going to stand pat on my feelings about an ownership that continues to make money on the backs of the fan base while at the same time cutting payroll to stay below a certain number well knowing that it could be at the expense of the product being put out there on the field. I probably would be doing the same thing but i don't think that I would feel good about doing it.

 

The Red Sox have had the highest payroll in both 2018 and 2019, and they will still have one of the highest payrolls next year even if they do cut it.

 

Pretty hard for me to fault an ownership that has consistently had high payrolls since it bought the team, consistently signed players to big contracts.

[Bellhorn04]

Sometimes I wonder if Dombrowski realizes players do get older...

 

Every GM in baseball signs multi-year deals with players who will only get older, though. That's part of the territory.

 

Now with Cabrera, you're talking about signing a guy until he's older than Methuselah and with less bat speed.

[Slasher9]

Every GM in baseball signs multi-year deals with players who will only get older, though. That's part of the territory.

 

Now with Cabrera, you're talking about signing a guy until he's older than Methuselah and with less bat speed.

 

i actually get and am ok with the EO signing as he was a FA. but the Sale extension looks premature. i believe we definitely could have resigned him for less$$ and or years if we waited until after this season.....

[Bellhorn04]

i actually get and am ok with the EO signing as he was a FA. but the Sale extension looks premature. i believe we definitely could have resigned him for less$$ and or years if we waited until after this season.....

 

But IF Sale had a great 2019 that would not be the case. He would be looking at a lot more than he got.

 

The enigma is the inability to diagnose his arm issues.

[cp176]

The Red Sox have had the highest payroll in both 2018 and 2019, and they will still have one of the highest payrolls next year even if they do cut it.

 

Pretty hard for me to fault an ownership that has consistently had high payrolls since it bought the team, consistently signed players to big contracts.

 

i sort of agree with you here. maybe what is bugging me is the tiresome abuse of dd by quite a few people posting here. some of them being very hypocritical. hard for me to understand constantly berating someone and still claiming that they like someone. i do not think that jh gets off the hook here. there is just something that bothers me about the way he does business.

[notin]

Lucchino was not just a fall guy.

 

He was responsible for much of what went wrong. I have no doubt in my mind.

 

Granted I never read any book by Francona or anyone else in the Sox. So I don’t know the sources.

 

But it seems to me Lucchino’s biggest crime was being thoroughly unlikable and therefore easy to blame. Maybe it was his history or winning everywhere in multiple sports. Maybe his off-putting “I know business not sports” demeanor. Maybe it was his scaly skin and forked tongue. But there was something about the guy that made putting the blame on him just feel right...

[notin]

Every GM in baseball signs multi-year deals with players who will only get older, though. That's part of the territory.

 

Now with Cabrera, you're talking about signing a guy until he's older than Methuselah and with less bat speed.

 

Not for 8 years $248million for a player who was already 31.

 

I can’t look this up right now, but is Dombrowski the only GM to give a $200mill contract to a player over 30? He’s done it at least twice...

[S5Dewey]

Like it or not, the work of a GM tends to get judged in hindsight.

 

And in hindsight, DD did a pretty poor job this year.

 

He signed Eovaldi and Pearce and that was basically it.

 

He did next to nothing about starting pitching depth or the bullpen.

 

And he put us in a position where the late season 'additions' to the lineup were Gorkys and Owings.

 

I suspect that Henry was comparing this to what Cashman did, which was to provide incredible depth to a team that was decimated by injuries but still ran away with the division.

 

I understand that sports in general and specifically baseball in this case is often a matter of "What Have You Done For Me LATELY" but IMO firing DD for constructing a WSC team in 2018 and having the team fail in 2019 would have been reactionary, especially if JH had set hard spending limits.

 

That's why I'm tempted to believe that there were three things that entered into the firing. The first was the failure of the 2019 season, the second was that DD's history said that he wasn't a guy with the skills to rebuild, and the third is that DD had just plain "worn out his welcome" in Boston.

 

If what we read is true he lacked the interpersonal skills to maintain a relationship with others in the FO. (IOW, he was a prick and JH got tired of him!). However, I'm also aware that nobody escapes from the Red Sox FO without some kind of character assassination, so I take all of that with a grain of salt.

 

Consequently I'm tempted to believe that it was both of the first two reasons I mentioned above, but as Bell said, we'll never know for sure.

 

I do have to wonder though... do other organizations trash people on their way out like the Sox do, and if not wouldn't that have some effect on who might or might not want to come to Boston?

[moonslav59]

i sort of agree with you here. maybe what is bugging me is the tiresome abuse of dd by quite a few people posting here. some of them being very hypocritical. hard for me to understand constantly berating someone and still claiming that they like someone. i do not think that jh gets off the hook here. there is just something that bothers me about the way he does business.

 

It's possible to like what someone did, but still have issues with somethings they did.

 

It's not hypocritical at all. I'm glad DD got us a ring, and I knew he sacrificed some of the future to do it. Overall, he did what it took to get the ring. He made sure he got enough horses to get it. I think he went too far, but that doesn't mean I hate the guy, and I certainly have not been constantly berating the guy.

 

My main reason for liking DD's departure is not the state he left the farm in. I don't like ow far he went with prospect trades, but as long as we got the ring it was worth it. My main reason for liking his departure is that we are now (earlier than I had hoped for) entering a rebuilding phase direction, and to me, DD is clearly not the GM for that direction. He was 4 years ago, when we had other goals. He is not now. I don't have to hate a guy to not think he's best for this situation.

 

I'm not lying when I say, "I like DD." I'm not being disingenuous.

 

I love my wife, but we disagree about a few things.

[S5Dewey]

i do not think that jh gets off the hook here. there is just something that bothers me about the way he does business.

 

But it seems to me Lucchino’s biggest crime was being thoroughly unlikable and therefore easy to blame. Maybe it was his history or winning everywhere in multiple sports. Maybe his off-putting “I know business not sports” demeanor. Maybe it was his scaly skin and forked tongue. But there was something about the guy that made putting the blame on him just feel right...

 

Please see my post above about being trashed on the way out of Boston....

[moonslav59]

But IF Sale had a great 2019 that would not be the case. He would be looking at a lot more than he got.

 

The enigma is the inability to diagnose his arm issues.

 

I agree, and wasn't Sale's issues this year different from last? (I may be wrong on this.)

[Slasher9]

But IF Sale had a great 2019 that would not be the case. He would be looking at a lot more than he got.

.

 

"guessing" right is the difference between a GM getting fired or getting extended. DD guessed wrong on sale and that certainly banged another proverbial nail in....

[cp176]

It's possible to like what someone did, but still have issues with somethings they did.

 

It's not hypocritical at all. I'm glad DD got us a ring, and I knew he sacrificed some of the future to do it. Overall, he did what it took to get the ring. He made sure he got enough horses to get it. I think he went too far, but that doesn't mean I hate the guy, and I certainly have not been constantly berating the guy.

 

My main reason for liking DD's departure is not the state he left the farm in. I don't like ow far he went with prospect trades, but as long as we got the ring it was worth it. My main reason for liking his departure is that we are now (earlier than I had hoped for) entering a rebuilding phase direction, and to me, DD is clearly not the GM for that direction. He was 4 years ago, when we had other goals. He is not now. I don't have to hate a guy to not think he's best for this situation.

 

I'm not lying when I say, "I like DD." I'm not being disingenuous.

 

I love my wife, but we disagree about a few things.

 

 

This isn't necessarily about you . it kind of sounds like you are trying to educate me. Thanks but I'm ok. I think that it is good that you like dd. I'm not sure that using your wife as an analogy is right but once again I'm ok with that (lol). I will hold my ground on this one - it has been absolutely hypocritical for some here who have been over the top negative about any of the moves that DD made but still continue to see an image of John Henry bathed in sweet sunshine. To each his own right. But hey - I liked Ben Cherington but thought that he was in no way the person that could do the job required of a GM.