Fire alex cora

[moonslav59]

the trip was on a Viking ship and they do a great job. Good food and drink and just enough fellow passengers.

 

I'm not as optimistic about our three high salaried pitchers going forward. I expect their quality to be about like this year, with limited innings and era's in the 4.5 region. I would like the team to remain as competitive as possible in 2020 while going for the reset. To me that means holding onto our best players who can be around in 2021 as well, and revitalizing the team but bringing up our best low cost propects and see where that lands us mid year.

 

If your expectation is a 4.50 ERA for Sale, Price & ERod and limited innings, then you should be for blowing the whole thing up and starting over.

[jacksonianmarch]

If your expectation is a 4.50 ERA for Sale, Price & ERod and limited innings, then you should be for blowing the whole thing up and starting over.

 

Right now, the sox have 4 starters under contract, three of them had injury wrecked seasons with a fall off in performance and stuff when on the hill. The idea that you aren't blowing it up seems laughable. I get that the sox need to hope they can get something out of the debachle that is the Chris Sale contract, but you cannot consider moving him unless he is healthy. If he is actually healthy, then he is too good to get rid of.....until his arm falls off again and he misses the second half of the year for a third season in a row. Sale isn't old, but he has an insane amount of mileage on his arm. He had 6 straight 170+IP seasons (4 were 208+IP) following his debut 1.5 seasons where he pitched in 80 games as a reliever. He has amassed over 1600IP in his career, which is a lot. He also isn't built like most of the durable starters who usually have some girth to their legs and core. He is a beanpole with very skinny legs and a motion that is concerning at best and a miracle he got as much out of it at worst. Then you have Price who is literally breaking down. He's over 2000IP in his career and has had arm issues wreck two of the last 3. His velo is down and hits the DL yearly with elbow issues. He's also 34, so it isn't like he's due to gain velocity or stuff. Then there is Eovaldi who never stayed healthy and outside of one miracle month, he has proven he is both maddeningly inconsistent and frequently hurt.

 

Those guys are your 1, 3, and 4 in your rotation. ERod has shown some injury issues in the past, but his effectiveness had been solid 3 years running. He is a pretty easy guy to count on for at least 150IP for 2020. The rest, who knows. It wouldn't be that big of an issue if your pen wasn't a heaping pile of dogshit and if you actually had money to fill it in. The idea that the sox aren't blowing it up is somewhat laughable to me and actually makes me happy. I hope you keep going for it

[jacksonianmarch]

And one thing that everyone needs to be aware of is that mediocrity destroys baseball teams. It just does unless you can outwit the rest of the league. The problem is, when as a system you outwit the other teams, your personnel get pulled to other squads and you need to adapt. You cannot sit back and get supp picks anymore. You can not unload on the INTL market anymore. You cannot just sign tough sign guys and spend recklessly on the draft. You either suck for a bit, increase your spending or stay in purgatory. Henry is gonna decrease his spending, so your options are purgatory or suck. If I were a Sox fan, I’d vote to suck, reset, bask in the glow of 2018 and rebuild once the big contracts allow for you to spend again

[moonslav59]

Right now, the sox have 4 starters under contract, three of them had injury wrecked seasons with a fall off in performance and stuff when on the hill. The idea that you aren't blowing it up seems laughable. I get that the sox need to hope they can get something out of the debachle that is the Chris Sale contract, but you cannot consider moving him unless he is healthy. If he is actually healthy, then he is too good to get rid of.....until his arm falls off again and he misses the second half of the year for a third season in a row. Sale isn't old, but he has an insane amount of mileage on his arm. He had 6 straight 170+IP seasons (4 were 208+IP) following his debut 1.5 seasons where he pitched in 80 games as a reliever. He has amassed over 1600IP in his career, which is a lot. He also isn't built like most of the durable starters who usually have some girth to their legs and core. He is a beanpole with very skinny legs and a motion that is concerning at best and a miracle he got as much out of it at worst. Then you have Price who is literally breaking down. He's over 2000IP in his career and has had arm issues wreck two of the last 3. His velo is down and hits the DL yearly with elbow issues. He's also 34, so it isn't like he's due to gain velocity or stuff. Then there is Eovaldi who never stayed healthy and outside of one miracle month, he has proven he is both maddeningly inconsistent and frequently hurt.

 

Those guys are your 1, 3, and 4 in your rotation. ERod has shown some injury issues in the past, but his effectiveness had been solid 3 years running. He is a pretty easy guy to count on for at least 150IP for 2020. The rest, who knows. It wouldn't be that big of an issue if your pen wasn't a heaping pile of dogshit and if you actually had money to fill it in. The idea that the sox aren't blowing it up is somewhat laughable to me and actually makes me happy. I hope you keep going for it

 

Funny thing is, one could say worse of the Yankee starting rotation!

 

You crack me up!

[moonslav59]

And one thing that everyone needs to be aware of is that mediocrity destroys baseball teams. It just does unless you can outwit the rest of the league. The problem is, when as a system you outwit the other teams, your personnel get pulled to other squads and you need to adapt. You cannot sit back and get supp picks anymore. You can not unload on the INTL market anymore. You cannot just sign tough sign guys and spend recklessly on the draft. You either suck for a bit, increase your spending or stay in purgatory. Henry is gonna decrease his spending, so your options are purgatory or suck. If I were a Sox fan, I’d vote to suck, reset, bask in the glow of 2018 and rebuild once the big contracts allow for you to spend again

 

We will reset.

 

We will keep those who will not bring back much in return or who may be worth something when the reset is over.

 

As much as you wish we suck for 3-5 more years, it's entirely possible we'll be back in the race in 1-3 years. Sale, Price and or Eovaldi might be part of that championship season.

 

[a700hitter]

Ben the Coffee Boy is doing a very good job of building up the Jays' farm system. We should be so lucky.

I’ll pass on his farm building skill. He whiffed on an entire draft.

• Also from Bradford’s piece, he notes that Trey Ball and Teddy Stankiewicz have reached minor league free agency and could be unlikely to remain in the Red Soxfarm system. Ball was chosen seventh overall in the 2013 draft while Stankiewicz was Boston’s second selection (45th overall) from that same class, though neither player has reached the big leagues. Bradford takes the opportunity to look back at a draft year that ended up as almost a complete miss for the Red Sox, as only five (Mauricio Dubon, Carlos Asuaje, Matt Thaiss, Gabe Speier, and Kyle Martin) of the 40 players selected have reached the majors, and none ever suited up in a Boston uniform. Still, the 2013 draft class did plant some indirect seeds for future success — Asuaje was part of the trade package the Sox sent to the Padres for Craig Kimbrel, while Speier was included as part of the Rick Porcellotrade with the Tigers.
  

[moonslav59]

I’ll pass on his farm building skill. He whiffed on an entire draft.

 

Actually, it was not an entire "whiff," and so what, if it was? He did much better than DD on drafting and IFA signings. Where's the "Thanks DD?"

[a700hitter]

Actually, it was not an entire "whiff," and so what, if it was? He did much better than DD on drafting and IFA signings. Where's the "Thanks DD?"

I think Bradford makes a compelling case.

[oldtimer]

If your expectation is a 4.50 ERA for Sale, Price & ERod and limited innings, then you should be for blowing the whole thing up and starting over.

 

Of course I was thinking Eovaldi and not E-Rod. We do have uunderperforming contracts with those three. These are high risk players going forward and it is hard for anyone to justify their salaries based on what I expect to be declining performance. Blowing the whole thing up means what? Trying to find someone to take one or two of these pitchers on by including a player like Beni or JBJ with them. I do think all options are on the table to try to reset and lower the number of DD's overly generous contracts.

[moonslav59]

I think Bradford makes a compelling case.

 

It was about as close as you can come to a complete whiff, but if all you want to do is focus on one draft to try and make some round about false equivalency to DD's farm building skills, then to each his own.

 

Ben made many bad mistakes. Too many to keep his job. That draft was one of the bad things he did. Other than the IFA penalty thing, that's about the only bad thing he did with farm-building. Overall, Ben did a hell of a job building the farm to the point where DD was able to trade almost two dozen of them for Sale, Kimbrel, Pom, Thornburg, Addison Reed, Nunez, Ziegler, Aaron Hill, Kinsler, Eovaldi and Pearce.

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by moonslav59

[a700hitter]

It was about as close as you can come to a complete whiff, but if all you want to do is focus on one draft to try and make some round about false equivalency to DD's farm building skills.

 

Ben made many bad mistakes. Too many to keep his job. That draft was one of the bad things he did. Other than the IFA penalty thing, that's about the only bad thing he did with farm-building. Overall, Ben did a hell of a job building the farm to the point where DD was able to trade almost two dozen of them for Sale, Kimbrel, Pom, Thornburg, Addison Reed, Nunez, Ziegler, Aaron Hill, Kinsler, Eovaldi and Pearce.

 

I believe you are making the equivalency to DD. I simply quoted Bradford’s piece and thanked Ben.

[moonslav59]

I believe you are making the equivalency to DD. I simply quoted Bradford’s piece and thanked Ben.

 

Yes, that must be it.

[Kimmi]

He’s using the age-old trick “Draft the kids of stars.”

 

Such an obvious move, yet so few teams try it with such frequency...

 

Kids of stars would presumably have the best coaches growing up!

[Kimmi]

While Ben's been doing this, the MLB team has been in semi-tank mode:

 

2016 89-73

(Ben hired in Sept/16)

2017 76-86

2018 73-89

2019 67-95

 

We'll see if and when it all pays off.

 

Yes, they have been in semi-tank mode.

 

Perhaps if Ben were the GM, he could have signed players similar to Victorino and Napoli and won a World Series while semi-tanking.

[Kimmi]

the trip was on a Viking ship and they do a great job. Good food and drink and just enough fellow passengers.

 

I'm not as optimistic about our three high salaried pitchers going forward. I expect their quality to be about like this year, with limited innings and era's in the 4.5 region. I would like the team to remain as competitive as possible in 2020 while going for the reset. To me that means holding onto our best players who can be around in 2021 as well, and revitalizing the team but bringing up our best low cost propects and see where that lands us mid year.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the trip.

 

If the team can reset AND stay competitive, that would obviously be the ultimate goal. I think it can be done, but it will take some really shrewd moves and a bit of luck. It would also take our starting pitchers to perform well and to give us innings. I don't expect Sale or Price to return to peak form, but I do expect them both to be better than they were this season, both in terms of innings pitched and in terms of quality. I think pitching deep into the postseason last year had a larger effect on them than the team thought it would.

[jacksonianmarch]

What the point of being competitive if you know your team has no chance to win a title? Are you really gonna be happy if you eek into the second wild card and get shitstomped in a play in game? Is it cool when you’re over .500 but finish the last half of September knowing that October isn’t happening for your squad this year? This is the kind of mindset that leads to perpetual mediocrity. Henry needs to decide if he wants to go for it or not. Halfway only worsens your team’s long term outlook. I lived through the “rebuild while staying competitive” s***. It sucked, and we only rebuilt because we didn’t deal away real prospects and then decided to tear it down and take advantage of two curses in the same season.

 

You’re not gonna have that this year. You’re not gonna get to fleece a team that needs a title desperately like the Cubs did. You’re gonna have to restock somehow. Your best bet is to do it with the tradeable assets you have before they leave of their own accord

[cp176]

I believe you are making the equivalency to DD. I simply quoted Bradford’s piece and thanked Ben.

 

Ben Cherington has been gone for awhile now but the legend lives on in "talksox lore" where GM's are viewed on an importance scale as important as any future HOFamer to some(1). As this conversation never ends, will his reputation as the consummate builder of all things farm related even rival that other guy Theo whoever? yes he clearly could be the answer for our future success.

My only problem is that I have this endearing image in my mind: Every time I went to a Seadogs game when he was our GM to watch them play the Yankees double A franchise, I could not help but wonder how the Yankees prospects all appeared so much bigger stronger and faster than ours. Oh well - optical illusion i guess. I wish him the best of luck in Toronto but do not feel that following his prescription leads to sure success.

[Bellhorn04]

I've knocked Cherington for a bunch of things myself. The last place finishes were no fun.

 

But on the flip side, he won one title and he put a lot of pieces in place for the next title.

[moonslav59]

I've knocked Cherington for a bunch of things myself. The last place finishes were no fun.

 

But on the flip side, he won one title and he put a lot of pieces in place for the next title.

 

True 'nuff.

 

Plus, bigger is not always better.

[Bellhorn04]

True 'nuff.

 

Plus, bigger is not always better.

 

Mookie Betts would have been one of those little guys.

[Slasher9]

Ben Cherington has been gone for awhile now but the legend lives on in "talksox lore" where GM's are viewed on an importance scale as important as any future HOFamer to some(1). As this conversation never ends, will his reputation as the consummate builder of all things farm related even rival that other guy Theo whoever? yes he clearly could be the answer for our future success.

My only problem is that I have this endearing image in my mind: Every time I went to a Seadogs game when he was our GM to watch them play the Yankees double A franchise, I could not help but wonder how the Yankees prospects all appeared so much bigger stronger and faster than ours. Oh well - optical illusion i guess. I wish him the best of luck in Toronto but do not feel that following his prescription leads to sure success.

 

this one is easy CP: yankees give their players steroids. see: clinic, Miami

[Slasher9]

What the point of being competitive if you know your team has no chance to win a title? Are you really gonna be happy if you eek into the second wild card and get shitstomped in a play in game? Is it cool when you’re over .500 but finish the last half of September knowing that October isn’t happening for your squad this year? This is the kind of mindset that leads to perpetual mediocrity. Henry needs to decide if he wants to go for it or not. Halfway only worsens your team’s long term outlook. I lived through the “rebuild while staying competitive” s***. It sucked, and we only rebuilt because we didn’t deal away real prospects and then decided to tear it down and take advantage of two curses in the same season.

 

You’re not gonna have that this year. You’re not gonna get to fleece a team that needs a title desperately like the Cubs did. You’re gonna have to restock somehow. Your best bet is to do it with the tradeable assets you have before they leave of their own accord

 

[Slasher9]

More bad reporting. This guy makes it sound like a certainty that Sale, Price and Eovaldi got injured this year because of the spring program.

 

.

 

hey, thats what ive been saying all season.....

[Slasher9]

Let me smear DD -- 3 consecutive Division Titles (never been done by the Red Sox) and a World Series and one .500 + flop. To the gallows with him.

 

Maybe they will name LaRussa GM who will fire Cora and hire Matheny as manager.

 

we won 1 in spite of DD. he burned the entire farm and spent more $$ in his time then any other 4 year span in the history of the Boston Red Sox to do it. Ben got us a parade and a top 2 Farm....no contest who was better for the Boston Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

He needs some kids of star pitchers now.

Ben knows nothin about pitching. Maybe he will draft Aaron Cook Jr.

[a700hitter]

Y

we won 1 in spite of DD. he burned the entire farm and spent more $$ in his time then any other 4 year span in the history of the Boston Red Sox to do it. Ben got us a parade and a top 2 Farm....no contest who was better for the Boston Red Sox.

So we will sign you up for 3 last place finishes in 4 years? Count me out. Those were torturous years — lost summers. I don’t want to live through that again even if the GM is growing a crop of organic Ted Williams’s on the farm.

 

I did enjoy 3 consecutive Division titles— something Red Sox fans had never experienced.

[Bellhorn04]

hey, thats what ive been saying all season.....

 

What other possible explanation could there be for these paragons of durability to miss time like that?

[Slasher9]

Y

So we will sign you up for 3 last place finishes in 4 years? Count me out. Those were torturous years — lost summers. I don’t want to live through that again even if the GM is growing a crop of organic Ted Williams’s on the farm.

 

I did enjoy 3 consecutive Division titles— something Red Sox fans had never experienced.

 

i know you hated those years. but outside of the one where our SPers looked abysmal...on paper we were a division contending team every year. i think most of us thought we had a shot at the division (or WC at the very least) in every year Ben was GM. obviously in 3 of those years we ended up way below expectations but he did have a killer Farm in place at the end of his tenure. i can honestly say that he built that Farm without me feeling we were throwing away seasons. on paper we looked good every year. IMO.

I respect that you are not a Ben fan/supporter and the 3 last place finishes under his tenure give you the ammo. that said, i think its also fair to say that each of those years we had a MLB team that was expected to do better. and it's fair to say that when he left we had a very very good Farm.

[Slasher9]

What other possible explanation could there be for these paragons of durability to miss time like that?

 

they would have all had really good ERA's too. such a shame. sounds like the FO learned their lesson though as they already announced next years ST will be more "old school" approach.

[jacksonianmarch]

this one is easy CP: yankees give their players steroids. see: clinic, Miami

 

Manny and Papi must have known a few Yankees then