Fire alex cora

[cp176]

"guessing" right is the difference between a GM getting fired or getting extended. DD guessed wrong on sale and that certainly banged another proverbial nail in....

 

 

Slasher I am so glad that he guessed wrong on Sale and i bet that you will be too pretty soon.

[cp176]

I understand that sports in general and specifically baseball in this case is often a matter of "What Have You Done For Me LATELY" but IMO firing DD for constructing a WSC team in 2018 and having the team fail in 2019 would have been reactionary, especially if JH had set hard spending limits.

 

That's why I'm tempted to believe that there were three things that entered into the firing. The first was the failure of the 2019 season, the second was that DD's history said that he wasn't a guy with the skills to rebuild, and the third is that DD had just plain "worn out his welcome" in Boston.

 

If what we read is true he lacked the interpersonal skills to maintain a relationship with others in the FO. (IOW, he was a prick and JH got tired of him!). However, I'm also aware that nobody escapes from the Red Sox FO without some kind of character assassination, so I take all of that with a grain of salt.

 

Consequently I'm tempted to believe that it was both of the first two reasons I mentioned above, but as Bell said, we'll never know for sure.

 

I do have to wonder though... do other organizations trash people on their way out like the Sox do, and if not wouldn't that have some effect on who might or might not want to come to Boston?

 

I wonder about some of the same things that you do.

[notin]

"guessing" right is the difference between a GM getting fired or getting extended. DD guessed wrong on sale and that certainly banged another proverbial nail in....

 

A description that holds true in a lot of careers...

[Slasher9]

Slasher I am so glad that he guessed wrong on Sale and i bet that you will be too pretty soon.

 

i dont know what this means? i didnt guess at anything so what am i wrong about?

the fact is that DD gave Sale a pretty big $$$ extension at the start of this past season.

if he had waited until after this season do you believe we could have resigned him for less $$ and/or years? or do you think Chris would have gotten more $$ from another team this offseason?

Chris could win the Cy the next 3 years and that would be awesome. but we could have him doing that at a much much less AAV if we waited until after this season to resign him.

[notin]

I understand that sports in general and specifically baseball in this case is often a matter of "What Have You Done For Me LATELY" but IMO firing DD for constructing a WSC team in 2018 and having the team fail in 2019 would have been reactionary, especially if JH had set hard spending limits.

 

That's why I'm tempted to believe that there were three things that entered into the firing. The first was the failure of the 2019 season, the second was that DD's history said that he wasn't a guy with the skills to rebuild, and the third is that DD had just plain "worn out his welcome" in Boston.

 

If what we read is true he lacked the interpersonal skills to maintain a relationship with others in the FO. (IOW, he was a prick and JH got tired of him!). However, I'm also aware that nobody escapes from the Red Sox FO without some kind of character assassination, so I take all of that with a grain of salt.

 

Consequently I'm tempted to believe that it was both of the first two reasons I mentioned above, but as Bell said, we'll never know for sure.

 

I do have to wonder though... do other organizations trash people on their way out like the Sox do, and if not wouldn't that have some effect on who might or might not want to come to Boston?

 

 

The same "What have you done for me lately" can also be applied to Cherington, right? Granted, he was not actually fired, but it looked like his job duties were going to be much more limited.

 

And maybe, just maybe, that Cherington constructed the 2013 championship team, did nothing, and produced an abject failure in 2014, made DD's inactivity look all the more questionable. Like "you didn't learn from 2014?" questionable.

 

I agree that trashing people on the way out the door happens far too often. Think Garciaparra, Nomar.

 

As for other organizations, probably. But that wouldn't be covered by the press I read. I will say the Cubs don't. No executive ever deserved to be trashed more than Jim Hendry, and his departure was very quiet on that front. And the parade of managers pre-Maddon also departed without any trashing from the front office. And one would think they could have cushioned the negative PR image from firing Rick Renteria simply because a bigger name became available with some trashing, but it didn't happen. The Cubs just took the negative press until it stopped abruptly in 2016...

[cp176]

i dont know what this means? i didnt guess at anything so what am i wrong about?

the fact is that DD gave Sale a pretty big $$$ extension at the start of this past season.

if he had waited until after this season do you believe we could have resigned him for less $$ and/or years? or do you think Chris would have gotten more $$ from another team this offseason?

Chris could win the Cy the next 3 years and that would be awesome. but we could have him doing that at a much much less AAV if we waited until after this season to resign him.

 

What it means is that I like Chris Sale and would have been happy with the signing regardless of the cost. It also means that I truly believe that he will be back and continue to pitch at his expected level for the duration of the contract. This team needs more players like him. Players that are passionately motivated by their team's success. When around people like him, it is easier to catch what he has - a burning desire to win and play the game the "right" way.

[Bellhorn04]

If what we read is true he lacked the interpersonal skills to maintain a relationship with others in the FO. (IOW, he was a prick and JH got tired of him!). However, I'm also aware that nobody escapes from the Red Sox FO without some kind of character assassination, so I take all of that with a grain of salt.

 

Consequently I'm tempted to believe that it was both of the first two reasons I mentioned above, but as Bell said, we'll never know for sure.

 

I do have to wonder though... do other organizations trash people on their way out like the Sox do, and if not wouldn't that have some effect on who might or might not want to come to Boston?

 

Where does all the trashing on the way out actually come from, though?

 

Does it come from the organization or the Boston media?

 

I haven't actually heard Henry or Werner say anything bad about DD.

 

It was Shaughnessy who first talked about DD being isolated from the rest of the organization.

 

It was Bob Hohler who wrote the chicken and beer article.

 

Once the media reports something negative like this, it spreads throughout Red Sox Nation like wildfire.

[notin]

Where does all the trashing on the way out actually come from, though?

 

Does it come from the organization or the Boston media?

 

I haven't actually heard Henry or Werner say anything bad about DD.

 

It was Shaughnessy who first talked about DD being isolated from the rest of the organization.

 

It was Bob Hohler who wrote the chicken and beer article.

 

Once the media reports something negative like this, it spreads throughout Red Sox Nation like wildfire.

 

I thought it was Tomase.

 

Either way, that whole scenario was insanely overblown. AJ Pierzynski, who was then with the White Sox, said on the radio "I've been with 3 teams and seen that in 3 different clubhouses." What MLB players saw as commonplace, the Boston media and Sox fanbase saw as an enormous problem...

[Slasher9]

What it means is that I like Chris Sale and would have been happy with the signing regardless of the cost. It also means that I truly believe that he will be back and continue to pitch at his expected level for the duration of the contract. This team needs more players like him. Players that are passionately motivated by their team's success. When around people like him, it is easier to catch what he has - a burning desire to win and play the game the "right" way.

 

but wouldnt you rather have him doing all the things you said signed at less $$?? i know i would. certainly JH would.

as for right way... cutting up of a MLB jersey as well as striving for selfish personal goals (300k) in lieu of postseason performance is not "right way" in my book.....

[notin]

but wouldnt you rather have him doing all the things you said signed at less $$?? i know i would. certainly JH would.

as for right way... cutting up of a MLB jersey as well as striving for selfish personal goals (300k) in lieu of postseason performance is not "right way" in my book.....

 

The jersey incident was in protest for what Sale (and Adam Eaton) viewed as unfair treatment of Adam LaRoche, despite opinions in the clubhouse being divided about that same treatment. Is sticking up for a teammate the right way or the wrong way?

 

It was no real surprise that the White Sox rebuilt their organization by dealing those two players away...

[Bellhorn04]

I thought it was Tomase.

 

Either way, that whole scenario was insanely overblown. AJ Pierzynski, who was then with the White Sox, said on the radio "I've been with 3 teams and seen that in 3 different clubhouses." What MLB players saw as commonplace, the Boston media and Sox fanbase saw as an enormous problem...

 

Yes, exactly my point. It's the Boston media and the fanbase who create these unholy, everlasting uproars, sometimes out of virtually nothing. ('Restgate' being just one more example.)

 

So why does it gets characterized as the front office trashing guys?

[notin]

Yes, exactly my point. It's the Boston media and the fanbase who create these unholy, everlasting uproars, sometimes out of virtually nothing. ('Restgate' being just one more example.)

 

So why does it gets characterized as the front office trashing guys?

 

The only real incident I can recall about the font office doing so was with Nomar, which did have a few comments from John Henry.

 

Now at some point, there is a source for Shaungnessy's story. And he isn't a beat guy out there hunting down people for interviews. Maybe his source is one? Or was it just some impression he got?

[Bellhorn04]

The only real incident I can recall about the font office doing so was with Nomar, which did have a few comments from John Henry.

 

Now at some point, there is a source for Shaungnessy's story. And he isn't a beat guy out there hunting down people for interviews. Maybe his source is one? Or was it just some impression he got?

 

And it was rumored that Hohler's source on the chicken and beer stuff was Lucchino. Rumored, never confirmed.

[Slasher9]

The jersey incident was in protest for what Sale (and Adam Eaton) viewed as unfair treatment of Adam LaRoche, despite opinions in the clubhouse being divided about that same treatment. Is sticking up for a teammate the right way or the wrong way?

 

It was no real surprise that the White Sox rebuilt their organization by dealing those two players away...

 

depends. what did the teammate do that they were sticking up for him? i'm not digging TB12 sticking up for AB.

better ways to "protest" instead of cutting up an MLB jersey IMO.

[Slasher9]

The only real incident I can recall about the font office doing so was with Nomar, which did have a few comments from John Henry.

 

Now at some point, there is a source for Shaungnessy's story. And he isn't a beat guy out there hunting down people for interviews. Maybe his source is one? Or was it just some impression he got?

 

are you guys really serious?? Red Sox smear every player/coach/manager/FO that they send packing if they feel the slightest bit worried that said firing/trade will cause PR backlash. this has been a staple of the JH ownership. some/most/all of what they "leak" is true but they still are leaking it. this is not even debatable.

Nomar was sitting on the bench whining!

Manny pushed that nice man down!

DD didn't play nice with others!

Tito allowed chicken & beer!

[moonslav59]

This isn't necessarily about you . it kind of sounds like you are trying to educate me. Thanks but I'm ok. I think that it is good that you like dd. I'm not sure that using your wife as an analogy is right but once again I'm ok with that (lol). I will hold my ground on this one - it has been absolutely hypocritical for some here who have been over the top negative about any of the moves that DD made but still continue to see an image of John Henry bathed in sweet sunshine. To each his own right. But hey - I liked Ben Cherington but thought that he was in no way the person that could do the job required of a GM.

 

Well, I had just said I liked DD, and I don't see those criticizing him saying anything close to that, so I felt your point was directed only at me.

 

I liked Ben, and I think they got rid of him just before he was poised to make some deals. I think he got a bad a rap for hoarding prospects, when actually he accumulated many of them.

 

I don't blame the Sox for letting him go after 3 last places in 4 years. I just wish he got one more year.

 

I'm not saying henry is a saint, but after decades of no rings, maybe we needed a bastard to run the team into a championship or two... or 4.

 

My guess is most of the most successful businessmen of all time are not very nice.

 

[moonslav59]

are you guys really serious?? Red Sox smear every player/coach/manager/FO that they send packing if they feel the slightest bit worried that said firing/trade will cause PR backlash. this has been a staple of the JH ownership. some/most/all of what they "leak" is true but they still are leaking it. this is not even debatable.

Nomar was sitting on the bench whining!

Manny pushed that nice man down!

DD didn't play nice with others!

Tito allowed chicken & beer!

 

If those are smears, I'm laughing out loud.

 

Plus, when Manny pushed the guy down, it wasn't Sox management that reported it.

[Slasher9]

If those are smears, I'm laughing out loud.

 

Plus, when Manny pushed the guy down, it wasn't Sox management that reported it.

 

so you dont think they smear? got it.

[moonslav59]

so you dont think they smear? got it.

 

No more than others, or maybe a little more. Mostly players- not so much GMs and managers.

 

You missed the biggest smear: when they talked about Manny forgetting which knee was injured.

[S5Dewey]

Yes, exactly my point. It's the Boston media and the fanbase who create these unholy, everlasting uproars, sometimes out of virtually nothing. ('Restgate' being just one more example.)

 

So why does it gets characterized as the front office trashing guys?

 

What about Farrell and his (alleged) affair? What about Francona and his (alleged) prescription drug abuse? Unless these reporters are making things up out of think air someone is leaking them and the first place to look for the source of those leaks is to look for who would benefit from them.

[Bellhorn04]

What about Farrell and his (alleged) affair? What about Francona and his (alleged) prescription drug abuse? Unless these reporters are making things up out of think air someone is leaking them and the first place to look for the source of those leaks is to look for who would benefit from them.

 

Generally speaking, nobody benefits more from digging dirt than the media.

[S5Dewey]

Generally speaking, nobody benefits more from digging dirt than the media.

 

So do you think there's no substance to the rumors when someone leaves? That they're all figments of the press' imaginations?

[cp176]

but wouldnt you rather have him doing all the things you said signed at less $$?? i know i would. certainly JH would.

as for right way... cutting up of a MLB jersey as well as striving for selfish personal goals (300k) in lieu of postseason performance is not "right way" in my book.....

 

Ok - couple of things - i coached for a very very long time and one thing that I learned was that it was much much better for me to judge a person based on what I learned about him as I got to know him. I was pleasantly surprised many many times. Chris Sale cut up the jersey- yup he sure did. Based on what I have seen from him once he got to Boston, I find it hard to believe that he isn't exactly what I would like to see in one of my athletes.

You know that I do not believe he ever placed personal goals over team goals. There has been nothing to substantiate that at all. I am ok with you believing that. that is your choice.

Would I have liked to have seen him signed for less, of course but I feel absolutely no sympathy for a billionaire struggling to whittle down payroll so that they can stay below any tax limit. I do not care one iota how much he decides to spend. Now if I knew precislely how much of his fortune he is giving away yearly to help the less fortunate maybe I would feel differently. If he decides to to cut back on his spending to get below the luxury limit, nice nice good for him. Here is what I hear everyday - tax the rich tax the rich tax the rich. I am opposed to that of course but I am confused by so many who have such a great concern for how that guy spends his money.

Lastly I wish that you and I were sitting somewhere having this discussion as opposed to doing the keyboard dance. I guarantee you that we have a number of things in common and would be having great time.

[moonslav59]

Ok - couple of things - i coached for a very very long time and one thing that I learned was that it was much much better for me to judge a person based on what I learned about him as I got to know him. I was pleasantly surprised many many times. Chris Sale cut up the jersey- yup he sure did. Based on what I have seen from him once he got to Boston, I find it hard to believe that he isn't exactly what I would like to see in one of my athletes.

You know that I do not believe he ever placed personal goals over team goals. There has been nothing to substantiate that at all. I am ok with you believing that. that is your choice.

 

100% correctomundo!

[moonslav59]

I am opposed to that of course but I am confused by so many who have such a great concern for how that guy spends his money.

 

I'm not sure some of us are concerned in the way you think we are.

 

I rarely "take the owner's side" or defend corporate America. I think they got richer while the rest of us stayed even at best due to getting out of paying their fair share in taxes, but the way I approach the Sox and their budget is based on what I think Henry wants and is going to do. It doesn't mean I agree with him or love the guy.

 

If it was up to me, he'd use some of the profits not to hire more FAs, but to lower prices, so the average Joe can afford to go see a game again.

 

I'm concerned over our spending, because I know there is not a limitless budget.

[Bellhorn04]

So do you think there's no substance to the rumors when someone leaves? That they're all figments of the press' imaginations?

 

I don't know. Maybe we should stick to the current example of DD. I don't think he's being smeared.

[notin]

I don't know. Maybe we should stick to the current example of DD. I don't think he's being smeared.

 

And there’s a big difference between direct comments/smears from the FO and anonymous source stories...

[moonslav59]

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2019/10/alex-cora-keeps-defending-boston-red-soxs-spring-training-plan-says-some-top-mlb-starters-had-tapered-workloads-is-he-right.html?fbclid=IwAR2TChi0PcrD0cd9bL6PiTViEnzdn41UzoURcibssuDmzoDN-UnIA5wqmII

[Kimmi]

Not really.

 

He fired two so far. But Epstein and Cherington quit on their own...

 

Semantics.

[Kimmi]

I think of it as his being blamed for the team’s inability to change much once things went south. He depleted (better, Bellhorn?) the farm and saddled the Sox with numerous long term expensive deals on players who are only going to get older...

 

Fair perspective.