Should DD be fired?

[Larry Cook]

Something Bogey seems to forget too often.

 

Bogey got a tater today.

[mvp 78]

He’s been ok. GM’s get a longer leash. If they don’t make a good playoff run, he’s gone at the end of 2019.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Two of the players Dombrowski emptied out the farm system for were total losers in the ALDS: C.Sale and C.Kimbrel. That hurts.

[Larry Cook]

Two of the players Dombrowski emptied out the farm system for were total losers in the ALDS: C.Sale and C.Kimbrel. That hurts.

 

Don't forget dd gave up Shaw for all those great innings pitched by Thornburg!

 

Oh wait! Scratch that! Correction!

 

We gave up Shaw and got zippo from Thornburg and then had to suffer through Sandoval for half the year.

 

Well at least dd has all those talented youngsters in the operations department to crunch numbers for him and help develop a strategy for talent acquisition,

 

Oh wait! Scratch that! Correction.

 

All the talent bolted last off season, first chance they got to flee from clueless dave and all we have now are a bunch of empty offices and plenty of space to store dd's giant super inflated ego!

 

Last I checked, depleted farm systems, depleted operations departments and clueless gm's are not the preferred route to a World Series win!!!!

[jacksonianmarch]

And if the wallet isn't open, the team's position in the standings will drop

[moonslav59]

And if the wallet isn't open, the team's position in the standings will drop

 

He will. I'm sure of it.

 

I think it took guts to reset the tax this year and watch us fall short.

 

The problem is, the Yanks should get better, even without any new signings.

 

The Guardians and Astros are stocked, young and not up against a luxury tax.

 

Other teams may rise as well.

 

We not only have to spend, we'll have to out-spend others, maybe by a lot, to gain any traction.

[SoxHop]

A full season of a healthy Price would be worth about 25 million we wouldn't even have to spend.

[moonslav59]

In fairness to DD, we could get a lot better next year, if just some of these simple things come true...

 

Price stays healthy

 

Porcello pitches right between 2016 and 2017 numbers.

 

Smith and Thornburg are healthy and in prior form.

 

Devers plays a full year in Boston- maybe at 1B.

 

Pedey stays healthy...or healthier.

 

Wright returns to first half 2016 form.

 

Ross, perhaps our most consistent RP'er from 2014-2016 returns strong.

 

Workman continue to grow stronger.

 

The top 8 returning everyday players by PAs from 2016 stop the decline, and maybe even a few have career years as they come closer to prime.

 

2018:

 

1. Bogey SS

2. Betts RF

3. Beni LF

4. JD Martinez DH/OF

5. HRam 1B/DH

6. Devers 3B

7. Pedey-Nunez 2B

8. JBJ CF

9. Vaz C

 

Bench: (Nunez), Leon, Hernandez, Travis-Lin-Marrero

 

SP: Sale, Price, Pom, Porcello, ERod, (Wright)

RP: Kimbrel, Smith, Kelly, Thornburg, Barnes, Ross, Workman-Maddox-Hembree-Scott--others

 

We might need close to total health.

 

Speaking of injuries, the Guardians have had a lot, too.

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

A full season of a healthy Price would be worth about 25 million we wouldn't even have to spend.

 

Yes, it's like signing him all over again.

 

If he's on, he's probably worth $40M.

[Spudboy]

He will. I'm sure of it.

 

I think it took guts to reset the tax this year and watch us fall short.

 

The problem is, the Yanks should get better, even without any new signings.

 

The Guardians and Astros are stocked, young and not up against a luxury tax.

 

Other teams may rise as well.

 

We not only have to spend, we'll have to out-spend others, maybe by a lot, to gain any traction.

 

Stanton.

[cp176]

I'm thinking that I am finally starting to understand what all the yap about the impending cliff is all about. Just out of curiosity, outside of Shaw, how many of the prospects that we traded does anyone ever think were apt to be playing in Fenway? They were ultimately going to be traded. The bigger issue to me seems that some people just don't like the players that we traded for. Some also have presented all kinds of alternative moves that they would have made if, if, if,.... I am a proud member of the ain't no cliff crowd. Pleased overall with what DD has done and i don't want him to stop. When Chris Sale talks about the future being very exciting, it works for me.

[moonslav59]

I'm thinking that I am finally starting to understand what all the yap about the impending cliff is all about. Just out of curiosity, outside of Shaw, how many of the prospects that we traded does anyone ever think were apt to be playing in Fenway? They were ultimately going to be traded. The bigger issue to me seems that some people just don't like the players that we traded for. Some also have presented all kinds of alternative moves that they would have made if, if, if,.... I am a proud member of the ain't no cliff crowd. Pleased overall with what DD has done and i don't want him to stop. When Chris Sale talks about the future being very exciting, it works for me.

 

I thought we gave up too much for Kimbrel and Pom. I really liked both of those guys, but I did think we could have gotten more or given less for them.'

 

That being said, there's no doubt the players DD has acquired via trade have done very very well, including Pom & Kimbrel. Only the Shaw trade looks bad right now.

 

I'm not a big DD supporter, but to bash him over his trade results is silly.

 

Now, in 3 years, maybe the bashing can be justified, or if you want to argue the extended future now, then yes, but DD's trades have immensely helped this team win the division 2 years in a row.

[moonslav59]

Stanton.

 

I'd give Bogey, Chavis, Beeks and Shawayn and not much more. (We could then sign Cozart.)

 

Put Stanton at DH to save himself from injuries. Pray HRam can play 1B (maybe sign Duda to platoon at 1B). Get 15+ more HRs from the SS position.

[jacksonianmarch]

Slav, you know I like your posts, but this one is really Pollyana

 

In fairness to DD, we could get a lot better next year, if just some of these simple things come true...

 

Price stays healthy

 

He sure looked healthy in the playoffs, but nagging elbow pain usually has a structural reason. Price even said he had a "tear" in there. I anticipate there is significant trepidation and rightfully so, within the organization about his ability to contribute as a starter for a full season.

 

Porcello pitches right between 2016 and 2017 numbers.

 

2016 Rick Porcello doesn't exist. The guy you saw this year is effectively a park adjusted Detroit Porcello. He was a little unlucky this year (BABIP of .324) but he also was a homer factory with his 1.68HR/9IP. He might be slightly better than this year's numbers, but any rotation with him not your #5 is a disservice to your team

 

Smith and Thornburg are healthy and in prior form.

 

Smith is back and healthy. He will supplant Reed as the setup man and should be good. Thornburg needs to be considered a hope and a prayer. TOS is a tough one to recover from and the surgery usually requires significant rebuilding of the shoulder as the muscles atrophy. I wouldn't count on him at all in 2018.

 

Devers plays a full year in Boston- maybe at 1B.

 

Devers is the goods offensively. I think he can be a middle of the order bat for you for a long time. Signing anyone long term at 1b for your team would be a mistake. This kid reminds me a lot of Miguel Cabrera in terms of body type at a similar age. He is a thick 20 year old with a really thick lower half. He won't be a 3b for long.

 

Pedey stays healthy...or healthier.

 

I think the days of Pedey being healthy on the regular are long gone. He has some "chronic damage" in his knee which to me sounds like arthritis. Pedey will need to be managed for the rest of his career and having someone who can fill in for 60 games a year is a necessity

 

Wright returns to first half 2016 form.

 

His first half of 2016 was super fluky.

 

Ross, perhaps our most consistent RP'er from 2014-2016 returns strong.

 

He has an elbow issue and just had back surgery. I would put him on the roster bubble for 2018

 

Workman continue to grow stronger.

 

He's an intriguing guy for your pen, especially as someone who can go multiple innings

 

The top 8 returning everyday players by PAs from 2016 stop the decline, and maybe even a few have career years as they come closer to prime.

 

2018:

 

1. Bogey SS

2. Betts RF

3. Beni LF

4. JD Martinez DH/OF

5. HRam 1B/DH

6. Devers 3B

7. Pedey-Nunez 2B

8. JBJ CF

9. Vaz C

 

Bench: (Nunez), Leon, Hernandez, Travis-Lin-Marrero

 

SP: Sale, Price, Pom, Porcello, ERod, (Wright)

RP: Kimbrel, Smith, Kelly, Thornburg, Barnes, Ross, Workman-Maddox-Hembree-Scott--others

 

We might need close to total health.

 

Speaking of injuries, the Guardians have had a lot, too.

 

 

 

 

That lineup is better, but you might need to add a couple bats.

[sk7326]

DD's been fine - he has moved aggressively and gotten some premium talent. Yeah he gave up a lot of kids - but he was empowered to, and he got premium talent for it. And he seems to have chosen to keep the right guys. Now will be the next level - making decisions on the kids here, and figuring out who can be dealt for more upgrades. The Bradley/Bogaerts decision in particular will be very interesting.

[MADSTORK]

Past management is to blame for the luxury tax implications or lack of payroll flexibility. Ramirez Sandoval Craig Castillo Porcello.

 

Prospects are developed to trade for big league talent. At the moment no prospect traded by DD has become AJudge.

 

First order of business for DD is to rid himself of the Coaching Staff to include Farrell.

16 ER in 11 innings from your starting staff in a playoff series is unacceptable. Not to mention the similar numbers from the starters in 16 vs Cleveland.

 

 

Much work to do but first, the Manager must go or DD must go as well..

[Larry Cook]

I believe lucky Larry pulled the strings behind most if not all of what Ben did.

 

And for that John Henry sent Larry packing.

 

I blame desperate dave for outing a product on the field that:

 

A) relied on Pablo at third and had no viable alternatives. And

had no powerful presence in the locker room. He left the kids to flounder. And

C) had forgot to sign a power bat.

 

It's hard coming in to a situation and having your world view tossed about with a new cba. But desperate dave should have anticipated some of this.

 

He just needs to follow his brothers to extinction like all the other dinosaurs.

[cp176]

I believe lucky Larry pulled the strings behind most if not all of what Ben did.

 

And for that John Henry sent Larry packing.

 

I blame desperate dave for outing a product on the field that:

 

A) relied on Pablo at third and had no viable alternatives. And

had no powerful presence in the locker room. He left the kids to flounder. And

C) had forgot to sign a power bat.

 

It's hard coming in to a situation and having your world view tossed about with a new cba. But desperate dave should have anticipated some of this.

 

He just needs to follow his brothers to extinction like all the other dinosaurs.

 

This really doesn't say very much for Ben I'm afraid Larry. Should we call him "the puppet"?

[Dojji]

One of the worst decisions was to retain Farrell and let Lovullo go. I can understand why it was done, but Lovullo was the up and comer for the organization and it might be difficult to find someone better if we do decide to let JF go at the end of this season/

Lovullo's record in Arizona: 93-69

Farrell's record in Boston: 93-69

 

Lovullo's Diamondbacks postseason results: swept in the NLDS

Farrell's Red Sox postseason results: Lost 3-1 in the ALDS

 

Nnnnnnnnnnnnot really seeing the huge advantage from keeping Lovullo around guys. Looks like the two managers had practically identical seasons. You might give some credit to Lovullo for doing it with a financially weaker team, but with the dead money on our roster Farrell had no actual roster advantages. They had an ace (Greinke) we had an ace (Sale).

 

I mean... I'm looking for a difference in performance here and not actually seeing one. Wanting Lovullo over Farrell this year is pure 100% grass-is-greener mentality. They're both average managers, Lovullo is just the average manager we're not prejudiced against because he didn't fail here.

[Dojji]

Totally agree with you on that one. Thats why I have been recommending going a different way with the hitting coach. Results matter and ours were visibly poor for most of the year. Taking two piches on the plate and swinging one off the plate is not a successful strategy.

 

Hitting strategy means nothing when the offense is simply not good. You can't strategize yourself into extra home runs. Your lineup is either good or it isn't. Saying "be more aggressive" feels good because when hit zero percent of the pitches you don't swing at, but the best hitters tend to be patient hitters.

 

We just don't have a big centerpiece bat for this lineup. That's the problem right now, if they started swinging at the first pitch the way you want, they'd still be a bunch of average to below average hitters, just a bunch of average to below average hitters swinging at the first pitch. I doubt this would trigger the offensive revolution you're desperately wishing it would.

[Bellhorn04]

I believe lucky Larry pulled the strings behind most if not all of what Ben did.

 

And for that John Henry sent Larry packing.

 

I blame desperate dave for outing a product on the field that:

 

A) relied on Pablo at third and had no viable alternatives. And

had no powerful presence in the locker room. He left the kids to flounder. And

C) had forgot to sign a power bat.

 

 

and

 

D) won the division for the second year in a row following two last-place finishes.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Bellhorn04

[Dojji]

and

 

D) won the division for the second years in a row following two last-place finishes.

For that matter when was the last time the Red Sox won two consecutive pennants?

[Bellhorn04]

For that matter when was the last time the Red Sox won two consecutive pennants?

 

The last time the Red Sox won consecutive AL pennants, of course, was 1915-1916.

 

2016-2017 is the only time they've ever won division titles two years in a row.

[moonslav59]

Slav, you know I like your posts, but this one is really Pollyana

 

I didn't say all of these points would come true, but we won 93 games with none coming true and nobody but Vaz over-performing. If we add JD and have Nunez and Devers for full seasons and SOMR OF THESE COME TRUE, we could be a top contender in 2018...

Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post

In fairness to DD, we could get a lot better next year, if just some of these simple things come true...

 

Price stays healthy

 

He sure looked healthy in the playoffs, but nagging elbow pain usually has a structural reason. Price even said he had a "tear" in there. I anticipate there is significant trepidation and rightfully so, within the organization about his ability to contribute as a starter for a full season.

 

I certainly realize having a healthy Price for 32 starts and a great playoff run is asking a lot, especially if the "tear" creates havoc.

 

 

Porcello pitches right between 2016 and 2017 numbers.

 

2016 Rick Porcello doesn't exist. The guy you saw this year is effectively a park adjusted Detroit Porcello. He was a little unlucky this year (BABIP of .324) but he also was a homer factory with his 1.68HR/9IP. He might be slightly better than this year's numbers, but any rotation with him not your #5 is a disservice to your team

 

I said a Porcello between 2016 and 2017 NOT like 2016. Even a career norm year from Porcello would beat the 2017 Porcello by a significant amount.

 

 

Smith and Thornburg are healthy and in prior form.

 

Smith is back and healthy. He will supplant Reed as the setup man and should be good. Thornburg needs to be considered a hope and a prayer. TOS is a tough one to recover from and the surgery usually requires significant rebuilding of the shoulder as the muscles atrophy. I wouldn't count on him at all in 2018.

 

Thornburg is a stretch, I know, but we also have Ross returning plus full years by Maddox and others.

 

 

Devers plays a full year in Boston- maybe at 1B.

 

Devers is the goods offensively. I think he can be a middle of the order bat for you for a long time. Signing anyone long term at 1b for your team would be a mistake. This kid reminds me a lot of Miguel Cabrera in terms of body type at a similar age. He is a thick 20 year old with a really thick lower half. He won't be a 3b for long.

 

Devers only has to do better than the Pablo-Rutledge-Hernandez-Marrero-Lin fiasco at 3B over the first 4 months of the season. Even if he does slightly worse than the 2 months of 2017, we should see a huge gain at 3B next year.

 

Pedey stays healthy...or healthier.

 

I think the days of Pedey being healthy on the regular are long gone. He has some "chronic damage" in his knee which to me sounds like arthritis. Pedey will need to be managed for the rest of his career and having someone who can fill in for 60 games a year is a necessity

 

This was just one of many "hopes" that could come true, even if unlikely. When you put 10 unlikely projections together, there's a good chance 2-3 work out. I realize they could be offset by 2-3 unforeseen declines, but it's hard to imagine too many players declining for two years in a row as they near prime years.

 

Wright returns to first half 2016 form.

 

His first half of 2016 was super fluky.

Maybe-maybe not, but he was a pretty good pitcher before 2016. I could see him being better than 2017 Fister. That's all we might need.

 

Ross, perhaps our most consistent RP'er from 2014-2016 returns strong.

 

He has an elbow issue and just had back surgery. I would put him on the roster bubble for 2018

 

Again, add one hope to a long list, in hopes a couple come through.

 

Workman continue to grow stronger.

 

He's an intriguing guy for your pen, especially as someone who can go multiple innings

 

This is a guy who could have a great year. He could also be mediocre, but there's signs of great hope in that arm.

 

 

The top 8 returning everyday players by PAs from 2016 stop the decline, and maybe even a few have career years as they come closer to prime.

 

2018:

 

1. Bogey SS

2. Betts RF

3. Beni LF

4. JD Martinez DH/OF

5. HRam 1B/DH

6. Devers 3B

7. Pedey-Nunez 2B

8. JBJ CF

9. Vaz C

 

Bench: (Nunez), Leon, Hernandez, Travis-Lin-Marrero

 

SP: Sale, Price, Pom, Porcello, ERod, (Wright)

RP: Kimbrel, Smith, Kelly, Thornburg, Barnes, Ross, Workman-Maddox-Hembree-Scott--others

 

We might need close to total health.

 

Speaking of injuries, the Guardians have had a lot, too.

 

 

 

That lineup is better, but you might need to add a couple bats.

 

Not if 5-6 of the returning 8 declining players have significant upticks.

 

Beni,Betts, Bogey and JBJ are all pre-prime or in prime. It's conceivable all 5 have significant upswings. Certainly 4 of 5 is not a bad bet, especially coming off down years.

 

Subtract:

576 PAs of Moreland .769

276 PAs of Young .709

164 PAs of Holt .548

118 PAs of Rutledge .558

108 PAs of Pablo .622

38 PAs of R Davis .595

and maybe...

100 less PAS BY HRam .750

100 less by Marrero .593

100 less by Leon .644

(Over 1,500 PAs in total)

 

then, add...

 

650 from JD Martinez

350 from Devers (to 590)

400 from Nunez (to 575)

100 from Vaz (to 450)

 

It never works out as simply as this, but the scenario offers a lot more hope than I think you might want to admit.

 

[moonslav59]

The last time the Red Sox won consecutive AL pennants, of course, was 1915-1916.

 

2016-2017 is the only time they've ever won division titles two years in a row.

 

When is the last time the Sox lost the first round of the playoffs two years in a row?

 

Never.

 

Couple this with finishing in last place the two prior years and us spending like maniacs every winter to improve the roster, and I think the firing was justified.

 

Everyone but Vaz declining

Lack of fundamentals and focus

Poor communication

Not even knowing the rules of the game

Lack of leadership and enthusiasm

[Bellhorn04]

When is the last time the Sox lost the first round of the playoffs two years in a row?

 

Never.

 

Couple this with finishing in last place the two prior years and us spending like maniacs every winter to improve the roster, and I think the firing was justified.

 

Everyone but Vaz declining

Lack of fundamentals and focus

Poor communication

Not even knowing the rules of the game

Lack of leadership and enthusiasm

 

My post was strictly about Dombrowski.

[dgalehouse]

Firing Dombrowski is absurd. He took over a cellar dwelling club, acquired the key players to turn things around quickly. You do not fire the GM for a playoff loss.

[FredLynn]

Firing Dombrowski is absurd. He took over a cellar dwelling club, acquired the key players to turn things around quickly. You do not fire the GM for a playoff loss.

 

No, I wouldn't fire him either. But I do hold him accountable for not addressing the glaring need for a power bat at the trade deadline.

[moonslav59]

My post was strictly about Dombrowski.

 

My bad.

[Behindenemylines]

He gets a pass because Farrell was not his guy to lead the team he put together. He now gets a chance to pick his manager and add the pieces to the mix that will get the Sox past the first round. The Spankees are back so the competition in the AL East just got tougher.