The "I Support, I hate ___" thread.

[notin]

Let's suffice it to say that it is the result of my observations over half a century of watching games and following baseball. It is nothing more that my opinion.

 

 

You and millions of other fans. With very, very few exceptions, it's not hard to find a webpage petition calling for every manager in MLB to be fired.

 

But managing IMO is far, far more involved than any of us realize, and the exact decisions we all question often have more superior logic supporting them than any of us ever realize.

 

Sure even the best logic can lead to moves that simply don't pan out. But that's the nature of the sport. Sometimes you can do everything right and things still go wrong...

[notin]

I would hazard a guess that Larussa, Showalter and Maddon all have higher than average IQ's.

 

I think baseball is a game that can make anyone like look a dummy.

 

 

And I look at guys like LaRissa and Maddon specifically and think these two are classic over-managers. While plenty of the moves from both that I've questioned over the years were probably more sensible than I realized, they both seem to cater to either their own legacy or managing the way fans want - with lots of calls and moves and doing nearly everything possible to minimize the impact of the actual players. This works better maybe if you have a bad team or an average team, but having veritable all star teams never seemed to change the approach of either. ..

[a700hitter]

You and millions of other fans. With very, very few exceptions, it's not hard to find a webpage petition calling for every manager in MLB to be fired.

 

But managing IMO is far, far more involved than any of us realize, and the exact decisions we all question often have more superior logic supporting them than any of us ever realize.

 

Sure even the best logic can lead to moves that simply don't pan out. But that's the nature of the sport. Sometimes you can do everything right and things still go wrong...

And all of that lends credence to my opinion that the people who fill those positions and the FO are so fungible.

[notin]

And all of that lends credence to my opinion that the people who fill those positions and the FO are so fungible.

 

 

There is a difference between being fungible and having a low IQ. I would agree certain managers are equal and interchangeable, but not all. And DO types are definitely not fungible on a basis of their moves. Do you think Cherington and Dombrowski are interchangeable?

[a700hitter]

There is a difference between being fungible and having a low IQ. I would agree certain managers are equal and interchangeable, but not all. And DO types are definitely not fungible on a basis of their moves. Do you think Cherington and Dombrowski are interchangeable?

Cherington only had 4 years as a GM. He really screwed up, but if he had gotten his chance in a smaller markets his on the job mistakes might not have been as noticeable and he might have improved. His body of work is too small to compare him to other GM's.

 

As for the low IQ issue with managers, 50 years of listening to them speak is enough to come to that conclusion.

[notin]

Cherington only had 4 years as a GM. He really screwed up, but if he had gotten his chance in a smaller markets his on the job mistakes might not have been as noticeable and he might have improved. His body of work is too small to compare him to other GM's.

 

As for the low IQ issue with managers, 50 years of listening to them speak is enough to come to that conclusion.

 

I think the differences in Cherington and Dombrowski are glaring. I liked Cherington, but I also doubt the Sox would have Sale or Kimbrel right now were he still here. Possibly not Price, either.

 

On the bright side, FWIW, the Sox would undoubtedly still have Shaw and Moncada and a slew of other prospects. But Cherington really needed to learn to part with a few, and Dombrowski might need to learn how to hold on to a prospect or two.

 

 

I do think you're being a bit unfair to all managers. Sure, very few of them are capable of handling med school. But all of them do understand baseball better than any casual fan. That includes me and you and anyone else on this board. The only executive ever who I felt made stupid decisions that I could have done better with was Jim Hendry, and really, even he made a few very smart moves that I never really thought of.

[a700hitter]

I think the differences in Cherington and Dombrowski are glaring. I liked Cherington, but I also doubt the Sox would have Sale or Kimbrel right now were he still here. Possibly not Price, either.

 

On the bright side, FWIW, the Sox would undoubtedly still have Shaw and Moncada and a slew of other prospects. But Cherington really needed to learn to part with a few, and Dombrowski might need to learn how to hold on to a prospect or two.

 

 

I do think you're being a bit unfair to all managers. Sure, very few of them are capable of handling med school. But all of them do understand baseball better than any casual fan. That includes me and you and anyone else on this board. The only executive ever who I felt made stupid decisions that I could have done better with was Jim Hendry, and really, even he made a few very smart moves that I never really thought of.

I think Ben's tenure as GM was awful, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he was learning on the job. If he had finished 4th instead of last in 2014 and 2015, he would not have been fired and maybe he would find some consistent success. He just flushed down the toilet very quickly.

 

i don't doubt that managers know more about baseball than I do, but that doesn't make them smart or good managers. Most are not very good at managing, making them extremely fungible.

[Kimmi]

You and millions of other fans. With very, very few exceptions, it's not hard to find a webpage petition calling for every manager in MLB to be fired.

 

But managing IMO is far, far more involved than any of us realize, and the exact decisions we all question often have more superior logic supporting them than any of us ever realize.

 

Sure even the best logic can lead to moves that simply don't pan out. But that's the nature of the sport. Sometimes you can do everything right and things still go wrong...

 

Excellent points made. We all think we know what the correct decision should be, but there is much more that goes into the decision that we are unaware of, including information that we are not privy to.

 

Also, just because a decision fails, that does not mean that it was the wrong decision.

[Kimmi]

And I look at guys like LaRissa and Maddon specifically and think these two are classic over-managers. While plenty of the moves from both that I've questioned over the years were probably more sensible than I realized, they both seem to cater to either their own legacy or managing the way fans want - with lots of calls and moves and doing nearly everything possible to minimize the impact of the actual players. This works better maybe if you have a bad team or an average team, but having veritable all star teams never seemed to change the approach of either. ..

 

Another fine post with which I agree. I never followed LaRussa closely enough to have an opinion on him, but I always felt like Maddon, Showalter, and Scoscia are the trifecta of the self-important micro managers. IMO, teams are usually better off if the manager just lets the players play.

[Bellhorn04]

Another fine post with which I agree. I never followed LaRussa closely enough to have an opinion on him, but I always felt like Maddon, Showalter, and Scoscia are the trifecta of the self-important micro managers. IMO, teams are usually better off if the manager just lets the players play.

 

Just for the sake of discussion, how exactly is Showalter a micro manager?

[StephenCurry30]

Showalter is a douche

[devildavid]

I think Ben's tenure as GM was awful, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he was learning on the job. If he had finished 4th instead of last in 2014 and 2015, he would not have been fired and maybe he would find some consistent success. He just flushed down the toilet very quickly.

 

i don't doubt that managers know more about baseball than I do, but that doesn't make them smart or good managers. Most are not very good at managing, making them extremely fungible.

 

Beside having baseball knowledge, how does general intelligence help a manager do his job? What are your criteria for a good manager?

[a700hitter]

Beside having baseball knowledge, how does general intelligence help a manager do his job? What are your criteria for a good manager?

Intelligence, more accurately, cognitive ability affects the performance of any job or function. if you have high cognitive function, you will be better at your job. I am not talking about general intelligence that would help someone do well playing Jeopardy.

 

There is very little difference among the 30 field managers imo. They are fungible imo.

[devildavid]

Intelligence, more accurately, cognitive ability affects the performance of any job or function. if you have high cognitive function, you will be better at your job. I am not talking about general intelligence that would help someone do well playing Jeopardy.

 

There is very little difference among the 30 field managers imo. They are fungible imo.

 

How do you gauge cognitive ability? And what tells you that managers are lacking in it?

[a700hitter]

How do you gauge cognitive ability? And what tells you that managers are lacking in it?

All 30 managers submit to a series of tests directed by me during Spring Training.

[devildavid]

All 30 managers submit to a series of tests directed by me during Spring Training.

 

So you have no basis for your opinion?

[a700hitter]

All 30 managers submit to a series of tests directed by me during Spring Training.

My basis for judging their intelligence is reliable but not based on clinical testing.

[devildavid]

My basis for judging their intelligence is reliable but not based on clinical testing.

 

And that basis is?

[Kimmi]

Just for the sake of discussion, how exactly is Showalter a micro manager?

 

The most noticeable thing is his 600 pitching changes one his starter leaves the game. What irks me the most about those is that he could have a situation where his team is down by 7 runs in the top of the 9th with 2 outs and no one on base, and he'll make a pitching change.

 

I don't remember the exact situation, but he also did something similar with challenging a call when the game was pretty much out of hand. And it wasn't an obvious wrong call.

 

I also think that he micromanages with the positioning of his players on the field.

 

I've read that he adjusts his pitching according to what umpire will be behind the plate.

 

There are other things that I've read about that go on in the clubhouse more so than on the field.

[Kimmi]

Showalter is a douche

 

That too.

[a700hitter]

The most noticeable thing is his 600 pitching changes one his starter leaves the game. What irks me the most about those is that he could have a situation where his team is down by 7 runs in the top of the 9th with 2 outs and no one on base, and he'll make a pitching change.

 

I don't remember the exact situation, but he also did something similar with challenging a call when the game was pretty much out of hand. And it wasn't an obvious wrong call.

 

I also think that he micromanages with the positioning of his players on the field.

 

I've read that he adjusts his pitching according to what umpire will be behind the plate.

 

There are other things that I've read about that go on in the clubhouse more so than on the field.

I think the challenged call you are referring to was on the last play of the game in a blowout game. Showalter is a douche squared. Edited June 20, 2017 by a700hitter

[Hugh2]

I support jbj

[notin]

I think Ben's tenure as GM was awful, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he was learning on the job. If he had finished 4th instead of last in 2014 and 2015, he would not have been fired and maybe he would find some consistent success. He just flushed down the toilet very quickly.

 

i don't doubt that managers know more about baseball than I do, but that doesn't make them smart or good managers. Most are not very good at managing, making them extremely fungible.

 

 

The Sox won 149 games in 2014 and 2015. While finishing in last both seasons, that was more a product of the division the team played in. The 2015 team won 78 games, most by a last place team since 2006, when both Seattle and Colorado won 78 games coming in last. (And occasionally good enough for a third place finish.) The 149 wins in two consecutive last place seasons might be an MLB record. While these teams were not good, they weren't as bad as people like to state.

 

 

To say a fourth place finish would have saved his job when the team was easily as good as any fourth place team those years is probably an oversimplification...

[notin]

Let's suffice it to say that it is the result of my observations over half a century of watching games and following baseball. It is nothing more that my opinion.

 

 

I'm confused. Aren't these low IQ fungible types the ones you deferred to for your opinion on the subject of clutch?

[Slasher9]

LOVE: JBj

CRUSH: Betts, X-Bo, Kelly, E-Rod, Sale, HanRam

LIKE: Benni, CY, Swi, Big D Rick

MEH: Sandy, Vaz, Mitchypoo, Kimbrell, Panda

DISLIKE: JF, Pom, Barnes

HATE: Pedroia, DD

DESPISE: Price

[Jack Flap]

LOVE: JBj

CRUSH: Betts, X-Bo, Kelly, E-Rod, Sale, HanRam

LIKE: Benni, CY, Swi, Big D Rick

MEH: Sandy, Vaz, Mitchypoo, Kimbrell, Panda

DISLIKE: JF, Pom, Barnes

HATE: Pedroia, DD

DESPISE: Price

 

Panda>Pedroia? I'm confused, lol.

[mvp 78]

Panda>Pedroia? I'm confused, lol.

 

Pedroia has had a s***** attitude this year. At least Panda tried to lose weight.

[Slasher9]

Panda>Pedroia? I'm confused, lol.

 

MVP pretty much summed it up.

without Ortiz keeping him in check apparently Pedroia is a real DB. at least that is my perception this year.

Panda has had his role severely diminished and has not said one negative peep to the press/social media. nothing negative has even "leaked" from his agent or "unnammed sources". that impresses me.

[a700hitter]

I'm confused. Aren't these low IQ fungible types the ones you deferred to for your opinion on the subject of clutch?

Yep, and your point is? I have already conceded that these low IQ types know more about baseball than I know. My auto mechanic could lose a game of Jeopardy to a bowling ball, but I still take my car to him when it needs to be fixed. Edited June 20, 2017 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

Pedroia has had a s***** attitude this year. At least Panda tried to lose weight.

Pedey has always been a douche, but he is still a really good player.