Clutch vs non-clutch

[Slasher9]

Anyone who is getting paid to do a job, is expected to do the job, even when there is pressure.

 

i'm getting paid to do a job and here i am spending that time typing in this thread.....

[Slasher9]

S5, cp, and Slasher (there may be others) have all taken the position that clutch is something more than just the absence of choke. They have all said to one extent or another that the players raise their game during clutch moments.

 

i will 100% state that certain players will raise their game during bright lights moments. does "raising their game" always equate to a walkoff HR? no. but they have a unique ability to feed off the big moment, increase their focus, enter the zone, clear the mechanism.....

[cp176]

i will 100% state that certain players will raise their game during bright lights moments. does "raising their game" always equate to a walkoff HR? no. but they have a unique ability to feed off the big moment, increase their focus, enter the zone, clear the mechanism.....

 

I know that this is true. I would just add that it can be a big play on the bases or in the field. Best players are not always the best hitters.

[mvp 78]

i'm getting paid to do a job and here i am spending that time typing in this thread.....

 

You sonuvabitch! I can't believe you right now. I'm just disgusted.

[Kimmi]

Here's something about 'randomness': it is a huge factor in baseball, and it does explain a lot of things. But sometimes it turns out to be the wrong explanation for something too. We've seen it happen a number of times that a pitcher has a rough outing or two, and at first you think it was just a randomness thing, but then they examine him and find out he's got an injury and probably had it in those bad outings. 'Randomness' is kind of a one-size-fits-all explanation that gets applied to everything.

 

No doubt.

 

Randomness is not the answer to everything. I know I use the term a lot, but I also understand that there are things going on in baseball that have explanations that are just not 'discovered' yet. I don't believe clutch is one of those things though.

[Kimmi]

Being psyched out may not be choking, but it can have the same results.

 

I have stated many times that mental and emotional factors do affect performance. I can't prove it, but I firmly believe it. It might be a fine line, but IF Price is pitching poorly in the post season due to psychological reasons, I don't see it as choking. IMO, it's more along the lines of a batter who starts pressing when he's in a slump.

[Kimmi]

"It could be any number of things, just not the one thing I think it isn't."

 

I'm going with the statistical evidence on this one. If you show me strong statistical evidence that rules out any of the other number of things, then we can narrow the list even further.

[Kimmi]

Hey Kimmi. i think you are being rhetorical here but i will try and answer as to my thoughts. i never said players dont focus in late innings only. i would guess that this early in the season the hitters are still shaking off some rust and the 3rd or 4th time up in a game they are feeling more comfortable. we also arent facing the starter in the 8th or 9th.....

 

Well, I can live with all of that. That is not the same as some of the other things you were claiming.

[mvp 78]

I have stated many times that mental and emotional factors do affect performance. I can't prove it, but I firmly believe it. It might be a fine line, but IF Price is pitching poorly in the post season due to psychological reasons, I don't see it as choking. IMO, it's more along the lines of a batter who starts pressing when he's in a slump.

 

I don't see the difference.

[mvp 78]

To me, psyching yourself out is choking.

[Slasher9]

Well, I can live with all of that. That is not the same as some of the other things you were claiming.

 

postseason. those are my claims. i think? I have been pretty consistent with that.....

[georom4]

Sabermetrics has done more than anything to diminish the game to mere numbers and happenstance. This is not only wrong, but also self-defeating as a fan. The joy of following pro sports is to be able to experience the games dramatic moments and root for the player of their choosing. Knowledgeable fans understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given situation. When someone rises above it, do we really want to attribute it to mere probability? I'd rather go inside that players head and heart and watch him deliver under pressure. This is the very definition of clutch. Hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports. Those who do it well, and in big games, are not just lucky. For example WADE BOGGS. He was a hitting machine, right? I have a friend that couldn't stand him for that very reason. His post season averages were just ordinary. That guy wasn't unlucky in big games. He just shrunk during tense moments. Then there's Big Papi...case closed Edited April 18, 2017 by georom4

[moonslav59]

People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

 

I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.

[mvp 78]

People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

 

I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.

 

Because whenever someone says something like "that guy is clutch," stat heads just come down on them like a wet blanket.

[moonslav59]

Because whenever someone says something like "that guy is clutch," stat heads just come down on them like a wet blanket.

 

So, how does that translate to us not enjoying a walk off HR by Papi?

[sk7326]

i will 100% state that certain players will raise their game during bright lights moments. does "raising their game" always equate to a walkoff HR? no. but they have a unique ability to feed off the big moment, increase their focus, enter the zone, clear the mechanism.....

 

And do you know who those players are? They are really good.

 

That is kind of the point about clutch vs non-clutch. It is not whether the players are robots - it is not whether nerves affect players the same way. The question is whether - in general, for the population - there is a meaningful consistent difference between say, your best hitters over the season and your best hitters in these situations. And for me, the answer is basically no.

[sk7326]

The first dozen years of Yaz's career were a pitching dominated era.

 

Of course - just was noting that because Yaz played his entire career in the pre-Wild Card era, and that the Red Sox - and that the first few years of his career predated the Impossible Dream when the Sox had very few spots to deliver the resume of Ortiz-ian legendary highlights. (and obviously less media etc)

 

I think Ortiz is the greatest "clutch hitter" in Red Sox history - not because he was better in those spots than, say, Williams or Yaz (though he might have been), but because he has had many more chances to deliver in those sorts of "historical" spots.

[mvp 78]

So, how does that translate to us not enjoying a walk off HR by Papi?

 

Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

 

"Wow, great sac bunt there."

 

"Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert s***** table blah blah blah blah."

 

If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.

[S5Dewey]

People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

 

I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.

 

I don't doubt that those who are stat-driven enjoy the game as much as those of us who aren't. It's just that some of us don't have to find a statistical reason for everything.

 

Like life, baseball is sometimes emotion-driven. Sometimes thing happen with no externally visible reason for it. If it weren't that way a pitcher would never have a bad day or a day when he's "feeling it". He'd be able to go out there every day throw his mediocre (for him) game.

 

The fact that we can't always explain why a pitcher has good days and bad days doesn't mean that he doesn't have them. Why was Curt Schilling able to go out there on "Bloody Sock Day' and pitch the way he did? Was his performance that day only random or was he able to 'turn it up a knotch' knowing the circumstances? Are we to believe that Derek Lowe's performance in the WS was only a random expression of what he was able to do and that the fact that it happened on the biggest stage was only a coincidence? If a person is so stat-driven that they believe that it's ok with me but I ain't buying that. So why should it be any different for hitters?

[Kimmi]

I don't see the difference.

 

As I said, it might be a fine line, but there's a difference. Players 'psyche' themselves out in many non pressure situations. You have a mini slump during the regular season, you start second guessing yourself. You start pressing. You change your approach. That has nothing to do with it being a high leverage situation or high leverage game.

[Kimmi]

Sabermetrics has done more than anything to diminish the game to mere numbers and happenstance. This is not only wrong, but also self-defeating as a fan. The joy of following pro sports is to be able to experience the games dramatic moments and root for the player of their choosing. Knowledgeable fans understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given situation. When someone rises above it, do we really want to attribute it to mere probability? I'd rather go inside that players head and heart and watch him deliver under pressure. This is the very definition of clutch. Hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports. Those who do it well, and in big games, are not just lucky. For example WADE BOGGS. He was a hitting machine, right? I have a friend that couldn't stand him for that very reason. His post season averages were just ordinary. That guy wasn't unlucky in big games. He just shrunk during tense moments. Then there's Big Papi...case closed

 

This post is wrong on so many levels.

[Kimmi]

People who love stats, numbers and metrics can also greatly enjoy the game for what it is: the greatest game on earth!

 

I'm not sure why some think being a stat geek and being able to enjoy the game are not compatible.

 

Yeah, I don't get that connection at all. These people have clearly never watched a game with me.

[Kimmi]

Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

 

"Wow, great sac bunt there."

 

"Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert s***** table blah blah blah blah."

 

If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.

 

You have become rather insulting and very presumptuous.

 

I don't like it one bit.

 

I'll tell you the same thing that I've told others.

 

If I'm boring you that much, the ignore feature is a beautiful thing. Use it.

[mvp 78]

You have become rather insulting and very presumptuous.

 

I don't like it one bit.

 

I'll tell you the same thing that I've told others.

 

If I'm boring you that much, the ignore feature is a beautiful thing. Use it.

 

My post wasn't directed at you and I don't find you boring.

 

I don't know what else to say, Kimmi. Just stop assuming I'm always posting about you.

[User Name]

Sabermetrics has done more than anything to diminish the game to mere numbers and happenstance. This is not only wrong, but also self-defeating as a fan. The joy of following pro sports is to be able to experience the games dramatic moments and root for the player of their choosing. Knowledgeable fans understand the strengths and weaknesses of any given situation. When someone rises above it, do we really want to attribute it to mere probability? I'd rather go inside that players head and heart and watch him deliver under pressure. This is the very definition of clutch. Hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in sports. Those who do it well, and in big games, are not just lucky. For example WADE BOGGS. He was a hitting machine, right? I have a friend that couldn't stand him for that very reason. His post season averages were just ordinary. That guy wasn't unlucky in big games. He just shrunk during tense moments. Then there's Big Papi...case closed

 

What the hell are you even on about? This is a bunch of nonsense. People's love of stats does nothing to diminish their love of the game. At the end of the day, the game is played between the white lines and we all watch it as simple fans.

[User Name]

My post wasn't directed at you and I don't find you boring.

 

I don't know what else to say, Kimmi. Just stop assuming I'm always posting about you.

 

Kimmi, you really need to stop taking some of this stuff personally. It's just silly baseball talk.

[a700hitter]

Because stat heads come off as boorish wet blankets who can't let anything go and have the personality of a swamp monster.

 

"Wow, great sac bunt there."

 

"Well, here's a million reasons you're wrong! Sacrifice bunts are the worst blah blah blah blah blah blah blah insert s***** table blah blah blah blah."

 

If you're unable to allow others a moment of joy because you are all consumed by stats, it probably means you aren't enjoying that moment either.

"Look, the runner really has the pitcher rattled. "

 

"No, that is statistically improbable. I will send you a link to prove to you that your eyes are lying to you."

[S5Dewey]

This team is 5th in BA and 4th in hits but 13th in OPS in all of baseball. This team doesn't hit for power.

 

With those numbers they shouldn't be 16th in Runs Scored and 26th in LOB and 21st in RISP.

 

Does anyone other than me see the disconnect here?

 

How does one reconcile the fact that this team hits well without people on base or RISP but poorly when they have a real chance to score runs? I have been beaten down by the statisticians here to the point where I hesitate to even use the word "clutch", but dammit people, doesn't it become obvious that this team doesn't hit well in clutch situations?

 

Or... should we just attribute it to SSS and bad luck? :-(

[Bellhorn04]

This team is 5th in BA and 4th in hits but 13th in OPS in all of baseball. This team doesn't hit for power.

 

With those numbers they shouldn't be 16th in Runs Scored and 26th in LOB and 21st in RISP.

 

Does anyone other than me see the disconnect here?

 

How does one reconcile the fact that this team hits well without people on base or RISP but poorly when they have a real chance to score runs? I have been beaten down by the statisticians here to the point where I hesitate to even use the word "clutch", but dammit people, doesn't it become obvious that this team doesn't hit well in clutch situations?

 

Or... should we just attribute it to SSS and bad luck? :-(

 

I'm not sure what to attribute it to, but the lack of power is a genuine problem, I think.

 

There's no getting around the fact that while we have a few positive numbers, this is not a good offense. And as a result we have a hideous run differential of +4 after 41 games.

[Kimmi]

Getting a lot of runners on base and having a lot of LOB is a sign of a good offense, not a bad one. Yes, there is a disconnect between these stats and the # of runs scored.

 

Is it lack of clutch? Ha. I would be more inclined to call it a lack of experience, if anything. But really, I think it's just been a fluky thing.

 

IMO, if we keep getting runners on base, the runs will come. When? I don't know. Like the rest of you, I'm still waiting.