Clutch vs non-clutch

[Bellhorn04]

But the bottom line to me is that clutch moments are almost always decided post hoc (and really more for us fans).

 

I'm not sure I follow this. We usually recognize big moments as they're happening, as far as I can tell. We know the significance of the game and the at-bat within the game.

 

If you're talking about things like Dave Henderson's home run in Game 6 against the Mets being devalued by the fact we blew the game, I would agree that happens but a lot of fans are still able to recognize that it was still a big clutch hit for him personally...

[Slasher9]

I'm not sure I follow this. We usually recognize big moments as they're happening, as far as I can tell. We know the significance of the game and the at-bat within the game.

 

If you're talking about things like Dave Henderson's home run in Game 6 against the Mets being devalued by the fact we blew the game, I would agree that happens but a lot of fans are still able to recognize that it was still a big clutch hit for him personally...

 

i was about to type something similar HFX. Any of us taking the time to post on this Red Sox board certainly knows the "big moments" of a crucial (see: postseason) baseball game. i like your hendu example of someone coming up clutch while in the same game other players failed to come up clutch and chocked.

[Slasher9]

Right, so now you're saying players DON'T try their hardest in every at-bat?* That players go up to the plate thinking "Gee, this isn't the post season or anything, so I can just go through the motions this time."

 

Newdflash - these are the best players in the world.* Most of them are better at baseball than most of us are at ANYTHING.* They didn't get where they are by not trying their hardest at EVERY opportunity.*

 

Riddle me this....if you will.....

Monday Night...NYM @ Phila....8th inning...game tied 2-2...

Asdrubal Cabrera steps into the box. Edubray Ramos decides its a great time to throw one at his head for a bat flip Cabrera did a year ago.

Cabrera walked and 2 batters later Bruce smokes a 2 run HR.

did the headhunting INCREASE the NYM focus? did every single NYM batter since the 8th inning of Monday night step into the batters box more focused against the phillies pitchers? how about Cabrera? is it possible he was EXTRA MOTIVATED and EXTRA FOCUSED on Tuesday night after thinking about the head hunting for 24 hours?

Tuesday night...Mets 14 runs. Asdrubal Cabrera 4-6 / 2RBI / 3RS

 

I'm sure you believe that Cabrera was just as focused during Tuesday nights AB's as he is every other night for the other 5,226 AB's he has had in his career.

Nothing to see here. he is equally focused in every single one of those AB's.......or maybe a players focus does increase in certain situations?????

[Kimmi]

I'm not sure I follow this. We usually recognize big moments as they're happening, as far as I can tell. We know the significance of the game and the at-bat within the game.

 

If you're talking about things like Dave Henderson's home run in Game 6 against the Mets being devalued by the fact we blew the game, I would agree that happens but a lot of fans are still able to recognize that it was still a big clutch hit for him personally...

 

I can't speak for sk, but I don't think he's talking about being able to recognize a big moment. It's making the determination after the fact that a particular player was 'in the zone' or 'dialed in' or whatever you want to call it because he came through in the big moment.

 

No player or fan ever talks about how they were 'in the zone' after they failed in the clutch moment.

[Kimmi]

Riddle me this....if you will.....

Monday Night...NYM @ Phila....8th inning...game tied 2-2...

Asdrubal Cabrera steps into the box. Edubray Ramos decides its a great time to throw one at his head for a bat flip Cabrera did a year ago.

Cabrera walked and 2 batters later Bruce smokes a 2 run HR.

did the headhunting INCREASE the NYM focus? did every single NYM batter since the 8th inning of Monday night step into the batters box more focused against the phillies pitchers? how about Cabrera? is it possible he was EXTRA MOTIVATED and EXTRA FOCUSED on Tuesday night after thinking about the head hunting for 24 hours?

Tuesday night...Mets 14 runs. Asdrubal Cabrera 4-6 / 2RBI / 3RS

 

I'm sure you believe that Cabrera was just as focused during Tuesday nights AB's as he is every other night for the other 5,226 AB's he has had in his career.

Nothing to see here. he is equally focused in every single one of those AB's.......or maybe a players focus does increase in certain situations?????

 

And here is Exhibit A of what I stated in the previous post. What if Cabrera and the Mets had failed? You wouldn't be posting anything about them being more focused.

 

It's never a good idea to 'retaliate' when the game is on the line. You risk putting a runner on base, which then increases the chances of the batting team scoring runs.

[mvp 78]

The "real" closer would be Carson Smith, once he's ready. Kimbrel is just the 9th inning guy.

[Slasher9]

And here is Exhibit A of what I stated in the previous post. What if Cabrera and the Mets had failed? You wouldn't be posting anything about them being more focused.

 

It's never a good idea to 'retaliate' when the game is on the line. You risk putting a runner on base, which then increases the chances of the batting team scoring runs.

so you dont think he went 4-6 the next night because he wasnt more focused? it was just coincidence? is that really what you think?

[Bellhorn04]

Riddle me this....if you will.....

Monday Night...NYM @ Phila....8th inning...game tied 2-2...

Asdrubal Cabrera steps into the box. Edubray Ramos decides its a great time to throw one at his head for a bat flip Cabrera did a year ago.

Cabrera walked and 2 batters later Bruce smokes a 2 run HR.

did the headhunting INCREASE the NYM focus? did every single NYM batter since the 8th inning of Monday night step into the batters box more focused against the phillies pitchers? how about Cabrera? is it possible he was EXTRA MOTIVATED and EXTRA FOCUSED on Tuesday night after thinking about the head hunting for 24 hours?

Tuesday night...Mets 14 runs. Asdrubal Cabrera 4-6 / 2RBI / 3RS

 

I'm sure you believe that Cabrera was just as focused during Tuesday nights AB's as he is every other night for the other 5,226 AB's he has had in his career.

Nothing to see here. he is equally focused in every single one of those AB's.......or maybe a players focus does increase in certain situations?????

 

A player is not in the same frame of mind every at-bat, that is for certain...there are many things that can change because us human beings are fairly complex organisms.

 

Of course, being able to identify and measure the effects of these things is problematic to say the least.

[Bellhorn04]

I can't speak for sk, but I don't think he's talking about being able to recognize a big moment. It's making the determination after the fact that a particular player was 'in the zone' or 'dialed in' or whatever you want to call it because he came through in the big moment.

 

It seems to me that when a player comes through with a big hit, say a walk-off hit in a postseason game, most fans just say, 'Wow, what a clutch hit.' If it was a guy like Ortiz who did it multiple times they'd probably add 'That Papi is some clutch hitter!'

[notin]

Riddle me this....if you will.....

Monday Night...NYM @ Phila....8th inning...game tied 2-2...

Asdrubal Cabrera steps into the box. Edubray Ramos decides its a great time to throw one at his head for a bat flip Cabrera did a year ago.

Cabrera walked and 2 batters later Bruce smokes a 2 run HR.

did the headhunting INCREASE the NYM focus? did every single NYM batter since the 8th inning of Monday night step into the batters box more focused against the phillies pitchers? how about Cabrera? is it possible he was EXTRA MOTIVATED and EXTRA FOCUSED on Tuesday night after thinking about the head hunting for 24 hours?

Tuesday night...Mets 14 runs. Asdrubal Cabrera 4-6 / 2RBI / 3RS

 

I'm sure you believe that Cabrera was just as focused during Tuesday nights AB's as he is every other night for the other 5,226 AB's he has had in his career.

Nothing to see here. he is equally focused in every single one of those AB's.......or maybe a players focus does increase in certain situations?????

 

So your argument is that Cabrera amped up his focus enough for Jay Bruce to hit a home run? Got it. So now focus is contagious. Or telepathic. Therefore, by your logic, clutch is, too, since you have clearly intertwined them inseparably. This means there are NO clutch hitters, only clutch teams. And since Price (your favorite choking example) was a teammate of David Ortiz last year in the post-season, why wasn’t “clutch” contagious then?

 

 

 

Or – crazy thought – maybe Cabrera went 4 for 6 the next night because the Phillies’ pitchers were awful. You know, Occam’s Razor. Cabrera (6 for 14 with 1 HR) was clearly familiar with Clay Buchholz before that game started, and it probably didn’t hurt his chances than Buchholz was either pitching with a torn ligament or in the process of tearing one. Nope. Had to be increased focus. Or was the 24-hour period where Cabrera was stewing over the headhunting episode channeled through Yoenis Cespedes and his three home runs? Is this more of that “contagious focus” stuff?

 

 

 

I cited an example of former MLB players who said they tried their hardest EVERY game EVERY at-bat and EVERY pitch and never gave anything away. Ever heard one who said the opposite?

 

 

 

The real problem with your arguments is they contradict themselves. You scoff at the idea that players try their hardest all the time, even if they say they do, and think they take it easy when the game is decided. But you also repeatedly use post-season and only post-season stats to determine “clutch.” But then by your logic, shouldn’t these same players be not trying their hardest if a post-season game is already decided? Those games do happen. Are they clutch?

 

 

 

Since you refuse to bother trying to define clutch hitting and cannot separate clutch moments from clutch hitters (or from the postseason), why not try using the Leverage Index at B-R.com, that weighs the importance of every at-bat in every game with its potential impact on the outcome, and see how your favorite clutch hitters and chokers do in high leverage vs low leverage situations? Shouldn’t the essence of “clutch hitting” be there? You’ll probably notice there is rarely any significant difference between hitters in high leverage situations as opposed to low leverage ones...

[Slasher9]

So your argument is that Cabrera amped up his focus enough for Jay Bruce to hit a home run? Got it. So now focus is contagious. Or telepathic. Therefore, by your logic, clutch is, too, since you have clearly intertwined them inseparably. This means there are NO clutch hitters, only clutch teams. And since Price (your favorite choking example) was a teammate of David Ortiz last year in the post-season, why wasn’t “clutch” contagious then?

 

 

 

Or – crazy thought – maybe Cabrera went 4 for 6 the next night because the Phillies’ pitchers were awful. You know, Occam’s Razor. Cabrera (6 for 14 with 1 HR) was clearly familiar with Clay Buchholz before that game started, and it probably didn’t hurt his chances than Buchholz was either pitching with a torn ligament or in the process of tearing one. Nope. Had to be increased focus. Or was the 24-hour period where Cabrera was stewing over the headhunting episode channeled through Yoenis Cespedes and his three home runs? Is this more of that “contagious focus” stuff?

 

 

 

I cited an example of former MLB players who said they tried their hardest EVERY game EVERY at-bat and EVERY pitch and never gave anything away. Ever heard one who said the opposite?

 

 

 

The real problem with your arguments is they contradict themselves. You scoff at the idea that players try their hardest all the time, even if they say they do, and think they take it easy when the game is decided. But you also repeatedly use post-season and only post-season stats to determine “clutch.” But then by your logic, shouldn’t these same players be not trying their hardest if a post-season game is already decided? Those games do happen. Are they clutch?

 

 

 

Since you refuse to bother trying to define clutch hitting and cannot separate clutch moments from clutch hitters (or from the postseason), why not try using the Leverage Index at B-R.com, that weighs the importance of every at-bat in every game with its potential impact on the outcome, and see how your favorite clutch hitters and chokers do in high leverage vs low leverage situations? Shouldn’t the essence of “clutch hitting” be there? You’ll probably notice there is rarely any significant difference between hitters in high leverage situations as opposed to low leverage ones...

 

its two different discussions Notin. i know you are a very smart man. one discussion is about focus. the other is about clutch. you know that. i know that.

my last post to you was entirely in response to your claim of player focus. it had zero to do with "clutch". please dont strawman it into one.

my comment about the Mets was that the hitters (to me anyways) were WAAAAY more focused on their AB's after Cabrera got buzzed. it had zero to do with Price's postseason woes or Ortiz being the most clutch baseball player that ever lived. in fact my post regarding the Mets didnt even contain the word Clutch.

as for the players on record stating that they never give an AB away - i would never ever ever expect a player to go on record stating anything other than "i try 100% every single pitch of every single at bat". if he was to say anything other than that he would get crucified. you know that. i know that.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Slasher9

[Slasher9]

Since you refuse to bother trying to define clutch hitting and cannot separate clutch moments from clutch hitters (or from the postseason), why not try using the Leverage Index at B-R.com, that weighs the importance of every at-bat in every game with its potential impact on the outcome, and see how your favorite clutch hitters and chokers do in high leverage vs low leverage situations? Shouldn’t the essence of “clutch hitting” be there? You’ll probably notice there is rarely any significant difference between hitters in high leverage situations as opposed to low leverage ones...

Pretty much my entire point about clutch hitters is that they come through when the lights are brightest. how many regular season low leverage and "high" leverage situations is a batter facing a #4 or 5 starter? a middle reliever that wouldnt even make a postseason roster? a terrible team that never sniffs the playoffs? a AAA starter in a spot start or for the month of September expanded roster? a lot of chances to pad your leverage stats. the postseason you dont get to face chumps. it's the best of the best. so if your numbers in the postseason are similar or better than your regular season numbers or you have 2 October nights in a row vs your most hated nemesis and walk them off...you are clutch.

IMO.

[Bellhorn04]

Pretty much my entire point about clutch hitters is that they come through when the lights are brightest. how many regular season low leverage and "high" leverage situations is a batter facing a #4 or 5 starter? a middle reliever that wouldnt even make a postseason roster? a terrible team that never sniffs the playoffs? a AAA starter in a spot start or for the month of September expanded roster? a lot of chances to pad your leverage stats. the postseason you dont get to face chumps. it's the best of the best. so if your numbers in the postseason are similar or better than your regular season numbers or you have 2 October nights in a row vs your most hated nemesis and walk them off...you are clutch.

IMO.

 

Yeah, this is why I like to look at postseason stats, even though I know it's a simplistic approach and the samples are relatively small.

[S5Dewey]

Ted Williams is the greatest hitter in Red Sox history.

 

David Ortiz is the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history.

 

Since there's no such thing as clutch one of these statements has to be wrong. Which one is it?

[Kimmi]

so you dont think he went 4-6 the next night because he wasnt more focused? it was just coincidence? is that really what you think?

 

Absolutely just a coincidence.

 

That said, if you asked Cabrera, he would say he was more focused or that he was on a mission. But, this would be an example of stating that post hoc.

[Kimmi]

A player is not in the same frame of mind every at-bat, that is for certain...there are many things that can change because us human beings are fairly complex organisms.

 

Of course, being able to identify and measure the effects of these things is problematic to say the least.

 

I completely agree with this post.

[Kimmi]

So your argument is that Cabrera amped up his focus enough for Jay Bruce to hit a home run? Got it. So now focus is contagious. Or telepathic. Therefore, by your logic, clutch is, too, since you have clearly intertwined them inseparably. This means there are NO clutch hitters, only clutch teams. And since Price (your favorite choking example) was a teammate of David Ortiz last year in the post-season, why wasn’t “clutch” contagious then?

 

That was a coffee spitting line (if I had coffee in my mouth at the time). Good job.

[Kimmi]

its two different discussions Notin. i know you are a very smart man. one discussion is about focus. the other is about clutch. you know that. i know that.

my last post to you was entirely in response to your claim of player focus. it had zero to do with "clutch". please dont strawman it into one.

my comment about the Mets was that the hitters (to me anyways) were WAAAAY more focused on their AB's after Cabrera got buzzed. it had zero to do with Price's postseason woes or Ortiz being the most clutch baseball player that ever lived. in fact my post regarding the Mets didnt even contain the word Clutch.

as for the players on record stating that they never give an AB away - i would never ever ever expect a player to go on record stating anything other than "i try 100% every single pitch of every single at bat". if he was to say anything other than that he would get crucified. you know that. i know that.

 

How many times to players get buzzed?

 

How many times do they and their teammates fail to come through in situations after the buzzing?

 

I'm not sure, but I'd guess that it's about the same percentage as they normally fail.

 

You say the team was more focused, which led to the victory. But what about all the times that players are more focused and they fail? I understand that they are not going to come through all the time. The point is, there is no statistical evidence of players coming through more often in these types of situations.

[Kimmi]

Ted Williams is the greatest hitter in Red Sox history.

 

David Ortiz is the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history.

 

Since there's no such thing as clutch one of these statements has to be wrong. Which one is it?

 

Very easy. The second line is wrong.

 

Although, some would debate your first sentence as well.

[Slasher9]

How many times to players get buzzed?

 

How many times do they and their teammates fail to come through in situations after the buzzing?

 

I'm not sure, but I'd guess that it's about the same percentage as they normally fail.

 

You say the team was more focused, which led to the victory. But what about all the times that players are more focused and they fail? I understand that they are not going to come through all the time. The point is, there is no statistical evidence of players coming through more often in these types of situations.

are you arguing with me about focus? or clutch? or results of focus?

again, i was using the Mets game as an example that players do not treat every single pitch of their ~550 AB's per year the exact same way. believe it or not....some of those pitches/AB's they are actually amped up. and sometimes when a batter is more focused or more amped up - he will make better contact. and sometimes when a batter makes better contact it results in a hit.

[Slasher9]

You say the team was more focused, which led to the victory.

 

i absolutely said the first part of this sentence. i never used the words "led to victory" (bolded in your quote above). i stated the FACT that the Mets hitters (especially Asdrubal Cabrera) had an increased Focus effect from the headhunting pitch. if you dont believe that's true you have absolutely never stepped on a field for a competitive event.

[Kimmi]

i absolutely said the first part of this sentence. i never used the words "led to victory" (bolded in your quote above). i stated the FACT that the Mets hitters (especially Asdrubal Cabrera) had an increased Focus effect from the headhunting pitch. if you dont believe that's true you have absolutely never stepped on a field for a competitive event.

 

Umm no. The 'Focus effect' is hardly fact.

 

And don't assume to know what I have or have not done competitively.

[Kimmi]

are you arguing with me about focus? or clutch? or results of focus?

again, i was using the Mets game as an example that players do not treat every single pitch of their ~550 AB's per year the exact same way. believe it or not....some of those pitches/AB's they are actually amped up. and sometimes when a batter is more focused or more amped up - he will make better contact. and sometimes when a batter makes better contact it results in a hit.

 

Both. I agree that mental factors play a large part in the game. I agree that players are not going to be in the same state of mind with every at bat.

 

I don't agree that a player or team can 'will' themselves to win a game or get a hit with increased focus.

[S5Dewey]

Very easy. The second line is wrong.

 

Although, some would debate your first sentence as well.

 

Then we need to rip that plaque down.

[a700hitter]

 

I don't agree that a player or team can 'will' themselves to win a game or get a hit with increased focus.

Has anyone made this claim?

[S5Dewey]

Has anyone made this claim?

 

I will. Almost.

 

I believe that a player can will himself to play better in a clutch situation whether by focus, adrenaline, or whatever. He won't be successful every time because that's the nature of the game but he can give himself a better chance to be successful.

[Bellhorn04]

Some guys do play harder than others. It's pretty hard to tell if a hitter isn't going all out. You certainly see it in some fielding and base running efforts, though.

[Spudboy]

Some players are just better at playing than other players.

 

That is the bottom line.

[Bellhorn04]

Some players are just better at playing than other players.

 

That is the bottom line.

 

Sure, but then you've got David Price, one of the best pitchers in the game, with a 2-8 record and a 5.54 ERA in the postseason.

[mvp 78]

sure, but then you've got david price, one of the best pitchers in the game, with a 2-8 record and a 5.54 era in the postseason.

 

sss!!!!!!!!!