Dombrowski Referendum

[moonslav59]

When Ben was the GM:

they refused to resign Lester

they traded Lester away

they traded Lackey away for nothing

they signed Pablo and Hanley at the same time when they only needed one of them

 

He's front and center for the terrible 2014 and 2015 seasons. He can have all the credit for 2013, but he should take all the blame for the following 2 years.

 

Ben also built the farm that DD has and is going to use to take all the credit for getting us out of the cellar.

[Nick]

Moon sometimes I just like to throw crap at you....rationally speaking though

 

Price gave us what we needed. He three over 200+ innings. Sure I would love for him to be lights out starter. He gave us a chance to win every game at the start.

 

I'm not sure if win without Kimbrel. I too was surprised with his up and down outings. I thought he threw just strikes and not be so wild. But he was pretty effective for most part closing.

[mvp 78]

The 2011 team "tanked". The clubhouse was in turmoil like never before. Have you forgotten the state of the team from 2011 to 2012? We were 11.5 games out 4 days before the deadline in 2012. What a great team Ben inherited!

 

They were sure great "on paper"!

 

Then, he makes 3 mid-level signings (Naps, Viv & Demp) and the team comes together and wins a ring.

 

Had HanRam played like 2016 in 2015, we wouldn't have finished in last place. I guess that's Ben's fault.

 

DD makes big glitzy signings and trades and we don't advance past the first round, and he gets your pat on the back.

 

 

If Tito was the manager in 2012, they would have won 90 games easy.

[moonslav59]

If Tito was the manager in 2012, they would have won 90 games easy.

 

Agreed, but with all that clubhouse turmoil, letting Tito go made some sense at the time.

[mvp 78]

Agreed, but with all that clubhouse turmoil, letting Tito go made some sense at the time.

 

I think the "turmoil" was greatly overstated by the media to help clean house and get rid of Tito.

 

If they kept Tito and Theo, none of that stuff would have gotten out, imo.

[Spudboy]

I think the "turmoil" was greatly overstated by the media to help clean house and get rid of Tito.

 

If they kept Tito and Theo, none of that stuff would have gotten out, imo.

 

Which ultimately points the finger at the three turds who own the team.

[sk7326]

In the year and change he has been in charge, most of the people responsible for the roster which won the division and is set up for such good things has left - that is unfortunate.

 

It is hard to say anything one way or the other - he made several moves which made sense, although besides Price, very few of the moves were essential to their success.

[moonslav59]

I think the "turmoil" was greatly overstated by the media to help clean house and get rid of Tito.

 

If they kept Tito and Theo, none of that stuff would have gotten out, imo.

 

Maybe it wouldn't have gotten out, but what happened was clearly "turmoil" or worse. It was a mess.

[moonslav59]

In the year and change he has been in charge, most of the people responsible for the roster which won the division and is set up for such good things has left - that is unfortunate.

 

It is hard to say anything one way or the other - he made several moves which made sense, although besides Price, very few of the moves were essential to their success.

 

It's hard to know for sure what Ben might have done had he stayed, but I'm pretty certain he'd have signed a big pitcher and addressed the pen needs.

[mvp 78]

Maybe it wouldn't have gotten out, but what happened was clearly "turmoil" or worse. It was a mess.

 

The only mess in September 2011 was the horrible rotation that they were stuck with.

[moonslav59]

The only mess in September 2011 was the horrible rotation that they were stuck with.

 

You mean the great one Theo assembled and Tito directed?

 

The one left for Ben? (Lester, Lackey, Beckett, Wake & Bedard subbing for Buch. We had Andrew Miller and Paplebon in the pen.

[moonslav59]

The only mess in September 2011 was the horrible rotation that they were stuck with.

 

So Ben failed to extend and ended up trading away our "horrible rotation" and then you hold it against him.

 

Hmmm....

[mvp 78]

You mean the great one Theo assembled and Tito directed?

 

The one left for Ben? (Lester, Lackey, Beckett, Wake & Bedard subbing for Buch. We had Andrew Miller and Paplebon in the pen.

 

Yup. That rotation sucked in September.

[Slasher9]

when DD brings us a Championship he can get some credit. Getting swept out of the ALDS isn't exactly what i'm looking for. The GM needs to have a team in place that can win games in October. when he's rolling out of the Fens in a duckboat i will give him credit.

the LTC to Price is an embarrassment.

the trade for Pom is a trainwreck.

his attempt to fix 3b during the season with Hill was a terrible move.

the way he handled swihart was a disaster.

[moonslav59]

Yup. That rotation sucked in September.

 

Yeah, the rotation Ben got from Theo.

 

It's not Tito's fault they sucked. It's not Theo's fault they sucked.

 

But it's Ben's fault that same rotation had us 11.5 games behind with 4 days to go to the deadline that saw the great purge.

[Bellhorn04]

93 wins, 98 Pythagorean wins, and a division title is a good performance by the GM in my opinion.

 

I always try to look at the big picture rather than on a move-by-move basis. People used to criticize Theo for a lot of his individual moves but his overall record was exemplary.

[cp176]

Come on now - you know that you are hindsight's master.

 

100% wrong.

 

I have never said "I told you so" after price, Kimbrel and Pom all failed to reach expectations.

I was highly critical of the trades the second they occurred. That's not "hindsight".

I'm also not one to try and blame everything on one guy or player. I was the last to call for Bobby V's firing. I didn't even complain about leaving Pedro in.

 

The Red Sox have made a ton of huge deals over the years. Some have worked out, more I guess have not. I'll leave that up to you. I like DD's moves because they have been rational and seem to make sense. Of course we all wish that Kimbrel and Price could have shown the dominance that they have shown but who knew? None of us really wanted to see Smith get injured. DD has not simply thrown crap against the wall in hopes that some would stick as his predecessors have done. Sensible moves in the present tense! We'll see how this off-season works out for him.

 

I liked the Carson Smith and Ziegler deals at the time they were made. I have said so many times. I'm not upset with DD. I realize why he made the deals I disliked just like I did with the Iggy trade and the great 2014 pitcher purge. I also called (at the time of the trade) the Dodger Dump "perhaps the best trade made by a Sox GM in my lifetime". I'm not always against trades and signings. I liked the Porcello trade and extension AT THE TIME. I liked the Napoli signing and re-signing. I liked the Uehara trade, AT THE TIME, and the re-signings.

 

 

Just a little chain rattle. Good posting!

[mvp 78]

Yeah, the rotation Ben got from Theo.

 

It's not Tito's fault they sucked. It's not Theo's fault they sucked.

 

But it's Ben's fault that same rotation had us 11.5 games behind with 4 days to go to the deadline that saw the great purge.

 

They sucked due to injury. I don't think Ben had Wake or Bedard in his 2012 rotation.

[moonslav59]

They sucked due to injury. I don't think Ben had Wake or Bedard in his 2012 rotation.

 

Yeah, you're right. It's Ben's fault that the guy Theo signed (Lackey) was hurt all 2012, the guy Theo extended (Beckett) sucked in 2012, Lester had his career worst season and the fill-ins: Dice-K, Cook and Doubront didn't help much.

 

The fact is, the rotation that imploded in 2011 sucked or was hurt in 2012 too. If people want to blame Ben for 2012 while others give Theo credit for 2013, then there's not much I can say. I don't think hiring Bobby V was Ben's idea. There's no doubt Ben missed badly with Pablo. Many felt he missed badly with HanRam too, before 2016. He'd still be here, if those guys just hit 90% of their career norms. Ben made a lot of moves I was against. I don't want to sound like an apologist for the moves he made. I was against many of them (Pablo, HanRam, Vic, Dempster and Masterson). The Tito firing looks bad now, but who knows if that is on Ben or Larry, and besides, many fans thought the clubhouse turmoil demanded Tito's firing.

 

Ben did some great things though. Napoli, Uehara and rebuilding a farm system Theo left on the decline. He got us out from under Theo's biggest mistake: Crawford and shed Beckett in the process. He set the team of for the long run and was yanked before it really had a chance to show the fruits of his labor. His FAs bombed worse than DD's. For that he is gone, and I'm not losing sleep over his departure.

Edited November 2, 2016 by moonslav59

[Eddy Ballgame]

Lol...I'm pretty sure Ben Cherington doesn't consider Victorino, Dempster & Ramirez "mistakes" as you do. I'm also pretty sure he'd make those 3 moves again in a nano-second.

 

I also don't think Cherington was behind Pablo. Declining ticket sales, declining marketing revenue, declining merchandise sales all probably had a little something to do with bringing the lovable "Panda" to Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

They sucked due to injury. I don't think Ben had Wake or Bedard in his 2012 rotation.

 

Who really knows why Lester pitched so badly in September 2011? Beckett wasn't that great either. It was a collective collapse by the pitching staff and nobody knows exactly why. That's why the chicken and beer story made sense to some people.

[Kimmi]

Ben also built the farm that DD has and is going to use to take all the credit for getting us out of the cellar.

 

Exactly. I still think Ben should have been given the opportunity to see his plan through. IMO, the team never should have finished in last place in 2014 or 2015, and it was kind of fluky that they did. Also IMO, the 2016 team would have finished in first place had Ben still been GM. The team was primed to do so before Dombrowski ever entered the picture.

[Kimmi]

93 wins, 98 Pythagorean wins, and a division title is a good performance by the GM in my opinion.

 

I always try to look at the big picture rather than on a move-by-move basis. People used to criticize Theo for a lot of his individual moves but his overall record was exemplary.

 

But you are giving the current GM credit that belongs to his predecessors.

[Kimmi]

Lol...I'm pretty sure Ben Cherington doesn't consider Victorino, Dempster & Ramirez "mistakes" as you do. I'm also pretty sure he'd make those 3 moves again in a nano-second.

 

I also don't think Cherington was behind Pablo. Declining ticket sales, declining marketing revenue, declining merchandise sales all probably had a little something to do with bringing the lovable "Panda" to Boston.

 

Though I have no proof, I am never going to believe that Pablo was a Cherington move. It just doesn't fit into his MO. That move has Lucchino written all over it.

[Bellhorn04]

But you are giving the current GM credit that belongs to his predecessors.

 

Maybe so. Those discussions about who gets the credit become quite a tangled web. I think Ben should get the credit for 2013 even though a lot of the players were inherited.

[moonslav59]

Lol...I'm pretty sure Ben Cherington doesn't consider Victorino, Dempster & Ramirez "mistakes" as you do. I'm also pretty sure he'd make those 3 moves again in a nano-second.

 

I also don't think Cherington was behind Pablo. Declining ticket sales, declining marketing revenue, declining merchandise sales all probably had a little something to do with bringing the lovable "Panda" to Boston.

 

I never said Vic and Ramirez were mistakes.

 

I said I was against both signings.

 

I do think Dempster was a mistake but understandable. We lucked out when he retired.

[moonslav59]

Who really knows why Lester pitched so badly in September 2011? Beckett wasn't that great either. It was a collective collapse by the pitching staff and nobody knows exactly why. That's why the chicken and beer story made sense to some people.

 

It wasn't a "story": it was real. So was the Shoppach's text from AGon's phone.

[Bellhorn04]

It wasn't a "story": it was real. So was the Shoppach's text from AGon's phone.

 

You're saying that chicken and beer really was behind the collapse of the pitching staff?

[Dojji]

It wasn't a "story": it was real. So was the Shoppach's text from AGon's phone.

 

It was probably real, but that doesn't mean it wasn't pumped into a big "story" and blown out of all proportion by the media until someone had to go.

[moonslav59]

You're saying that chicken and beer really was behind the collapse of the pitching staff?

 

No, but I do feel it was a symptom of Beckett's loss of a winning "attitude".

 

Maybe some rubbed off- maybe not.

 

It's the age old question: did the bad attitude cause the collapse or did the collapse cause the bad attitude?

 

Maybe neither..