A Realistic View at 2017 Part I

[Dojji]

Reminder: If we're looking for a cheap 3B bridge, we already have one.

[moonslav59]

Reminder: If we're looking for a cheap 3B bridge, we already have one.

 

Who? Shaw?

 

Not if he hits like 2nd half Shaw.

[Dojji]

First season shaw gives us plenty of reason to trust him with the job if Sandoval can't do it. If he can't get it done, there's plenty of opportunity for a midseason trade.

[moonslav59]

First season shaw gives us plenty of reason to trust him with the job if Sandoval can't do it. If he can't get it done, there's plenty of opportunity for a midseason trade.

 

Sorry, but I don't count 248 PAs as "plenty of reason" for anything but maybe hope. Here is a look at a larger sample size of Shaw's recent history- most at lower (and easier) levels than MLB. (Note: Shaw was not under aged at any of these levels.)

 

.781 in 133 PAs at AA to end the 2012 season

 

.736 in 529 PAs at AA in 2013

 

.954 in 208 PAs to start the 2014 season in AA

 

.752 in 346 PAs to end the 2014 season in AAA

 

.674 in 322 PAs to start the 2015 season in AAA

 

then,

 

.813 to end the 2015 in Boston in 248 PAs.

 

.726 in 530 PAs in 2016.

 

I'm not sure why so many seem to cling to the second half of 2015 and the first half of 2016 as what they think Shaw will or likely can give us in 2017.

 

The vast majority of his career in AA and above is mediocre.

 

.795 in AA in 870 PAs

 

.715 in AAA in 668 PAs

 

.754 in MLB in 778 PAs

 

While .750 is not bad, it's not really a plus, and I'm not sure he can even give us .750 next year. My guess is, he will be closer to his .715 AAA numbers at best.

 

 

[a700hitter]

Yes, China and the Philippines. I mean WOW, two shinning examples of how we should treat our fellow humans. Where is your humanity? where is your empathy? a bullet in the head????? really??? What if that was your son, daughter, wife, brother, sister, cousin, or loved one??? you sicko.

Comparatively, the U.S. looks pretty good right? That is what I was aiming at, but the sarcasm and satire didn't translate through the internet.

[a700hitter]

To summarize: I said that Pablo's eating himself out of a $90 million profession is his responsibility and that he has no excuses. That was met with an unresponsive "down the rabbit hole" post about the way America criminalizes drug addiction. I responded by sarcastically drawing a contrast to the way China and the Philippines deal with it. That is the story, Hugh. You should really hold your "sicko" accusations until you understand what is going on. Do you have enough cognitive skills to manage that?

[Spudboy]

lol.

 

Yeah Buddy.

[Jack Flap]

*backs slowly out of thread*

[Nick]

*backs slowly out of thread*

 

He now has 8 lives left.

[cp176]

To summarize: I said that Pablo's eating himself out of a $90 million profession is his responsibility and that he has no excuses. That was met with an unresponsive "down the rabbit hole" post about the way America criminalizes drug addiction. I responded by sarcastically drawing a contrast to the way China and the Philippines deal with it. That is the story, Hugh. You should really hold your "sicko" accusations until you understand what is going on. Do you have enough cognitive skills to manage that?

 

And I would like also to add my name to the list of people who care 0 for the feelings of Pablo Sandoval. He signed the contract -guaranteed- knew perfectly well where he was going - has not to date gotten the job done. Many of us, myself included, act as though New England is the only place in the world of athletics where players are actually held accountable. From a news media perspective, maybe it is tougher, I don't know. My advice would be to not watch NESN and don't read the papers while you are in town if you are that sensitive. My experience tells me that if you are a good person and work hard and at least act like you care, you will be appreciated.

[harmony]

And I would like also to add my name to the list of people who care 0 for the feelings of Pablo Sandoval. He signed the contract -guaranteed- knew perfectly well where he was going - has not to date gotten the job done. Many of us, myself included, act as though New England is the only place in the world of athletics where players are actually held accountable. From a news media perspective, maybe it is tougher, I don't know. My advice would be to not watch NESN and don't read the papers while you are in town if you are that sensitive. My experience tells me that if you are a good person and work hard and at least act like you care, you will be appreciated.

It's an overgeneralization, but ...

 

The typical New England fan is quick to attribute a lack of performance to a character flaw. A typical fan elsewhere might be more likely to mindfully seek solutions to the performance problem.

 

The typical MLB player does not expect the fans and media to ignore a lack of performance, but the player probably welcomes solutions over character assassination.

 

Perhaps the character flaw lies with the typical New England fan.

 

It's an overgeneralization, but ...

[moonslav59]

I have no sympathy for Pablo either, but I'm not writing him off just because he let us down.

 

I'm not counting on him for even 1 AB, but I do think he has the inside track on winning the DH platoon job with Young or less likely- possibly winning the 3B job. It's too bad Pablo, Shaw and Holt all hit righties better than lefties.

[S5Dewey]

The bottom line for me on this topic is this...

 

I have no problem with holding Sandoval responsible for his weight. I understand that it MAY be due to an eating disorder, but lacking that knowledge I also recognize that it also MAY be due to nothing less than gluttony. Either way, he has millions of reasons turn himself around, not even including what should be the most important reason, his health.

 

When John Lester was battling cancer he has the full support of the Red Sox organization behind him. I have no reason to doubt that it's the same with Sandoval. But as I like to say, "Even God only helps those who help themselves".

[a700hitter]

If being a fat slob and accountability for being a fat slob is an attack on one's character, that is news to me. Holding someone accountable for their failure is not an attack on their character.

[notin]

Sandoval isn't going anywhere so the best hope right now is that 2015 was simply a bad season for him all around. He's always been fat, so this might be irrelevant to his poor season, or it might be that he finds himself incapable of playing at the same level he used to as he gets older while maintaining his poor conditioning. Right now we can only hope it was a bad season or that the Sox give up on him quickly. While he is expensive, I really hope an MLB GM can build a 25 man roster as easily with $172mill as easily as he can with $19189million. Or whatever the new CBA uses as it's limits.

[notin]

To summarize: I said that Pablo's eating himself out of a $90 million profession is his responsibility and that he has no excuses. That was met with an unresponsive "down the rabbit hole" post about the way America criminalizes drug addiction. I responded by sarcastically drawing a contrast to the way China and the Philippines deal with it. That is the story, Hugh. You should really hold your "sicko" accusations until you understand what is going on. Do you have enough cognitive skills to manage that?

 

While no one confirmed or denied Sandoval as having an eating disorder, you were thr one who brought up the comparison to opioid addiction and labeled it solely the fault of the addict. At least maintain accountability for your metaphors, as incorrect as they may be.

 

And also whether or not you like or understand addiction, we can all acknowledge that the subject isn't always relevant when talking baseball.

 

I'd love to see Sandoval gone and never wanted him in Boston ever. The only way othrt than an unlikely release is probably a bad contract swap. The "best" fit might be to Atlanta for Matt Kemp. If the Braves keepthe mmoney from SD and LA, they fill 3b, open a spot for Mallex Smith, and get Sandoval for about $11million per. The Sox get Kemp, not an ideal Fenway hitter but a better DH candidate than Sandoval or Shaw or Young....

[harmony]

If being a fat slob and accountability for being a fat slob is an attack on one's character, that is news to me. Holding someone accountable for their failure is not an attack on their character.

Character flaw noted.

[Dojji]

If being a fat slob and accountability for being a fat slob is an attack on one's character, that is news to me. Holding someone accountable for their failure is not an attack on their character.

 

Wait wait... so an attack on someone's character somehow doesn't count as an attack merely because it's accurate? Since when?

 

Pointing out flaws in someone's character and attacking for them may be accurate, may even be correct (a subtly but significantly different thing), and in a few odd cases it might even be the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean that's not exactly what you're doing.

 

I've always found it better policy to confine my comments to a player's actions, and highlight character only as and when the player's actions make that character obvious. Even then, better tread lightly on the mind reading. The judgmental streak in New England society is an ancient pattern in the way we think, and has led to tragedy before.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

Everybody please just let that character stuff go and stick to baseball, or YOTN is going to just lock this thread.

[Dojji]

Maybe that would be to the good. Not like there's plenty of other threads with the same conversation happening.

[moonslav59]

I'd love to see Sandoval gone and never wanted him in Boston ever. The only way othrt than an unlikely release is probably a bad contract swap. The "best" fit might be to Atlanta for Matt Kemp. If the Braves keepthe mmoney from SD and LA, they fill 3b, open a spot for Mallex Smith, and get Sandoval for about $11million per. The Sox get Kemp, not an ideal Fenway hitter but a better DH candidate than Sandoval or Shaw or Young....

 

Thanks for trying to bring the thread back to baseball.

[a700hitter]

While no one confirmed or denied Sandoval as having an eating disorder, you were thr one who brought up the comparison to opioid addiction and labeled it solely the fault of the addict. At least maintain accountability for your metaphors, as incorrect as they may be.

 

And also whether or not you like or understand addiction, we can all acknowledge that the subject isn't always relevant when talking baseball.

.

I never brought up the issue of an eating disorder. I only accused him of being fat and unable to perform up to his contract. Others have sought to give him an excuse by positing that maybe he has an eating disorder. Whether he does or not, is no excuse as far as I am concerned. And yes, I did say that I don't give addicts of any kind a pass for being addicts. They themselves are accountable, and any addict that doesn't take responsibility will always be an addict. That is probably part of their 12 step programs, and if not , it should be. I used no metaphors. Get the facts straight, Notin.

[a700hitter]

Wait wait... so an attack on someone's character somehow doesn't count as an attack merely because it's accurate? Since when?

 

Pointing out flaws in someone's character and attacking for them may be accurate, may even be correct (a subtly but significantly different thing), and in a few odd cases it might even be the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean that's not exactly what you're doing.

 

I've always found it better policy to confine my comments to a player's actions, and highlight character only as and when the player's actions make that character obvious. Even then, better tread lightly on the mind reading. The judgmental streak in New England society is an ancient pattern in the way we think, and has led to tragedy before.

Show me where I attacked his character. I said that he was fat and can't play at that weight. I explicitly said that I did not think being fat is a character flaw. If being fat is a character flaw, that is news to me. Your reply misses the mark by a mile.

[Dojji]

Show me where I attacked his character. I said that he was fat and can't play at that weight. I explicitly said that I did not think being fat is a character flaw. If being fat is a character flaw, that is news to me. Your reply misses the mark by a mile.

Being fat is a character flaw in this context (the context of a pro ballplayer being unable to fulfil his contract due to being at an impractical playing weight), especially when you imply that it's the complete lack of self control that is directly to blame as I read you as doing repeatedly over the last few pages. If you feel that's not what you intended to say, feel free to clarify

Edited November 28, 2016 by Dojji

[a700hitter]

Being fat is a character flaw in this context, especially when you imply that it's the complete lack of self control that is directly to blame.

 

Again, accuracy is not a defense when the charge is the fact of an attack and no statement is made about the severity or accuracy of that attack.

I implied no such thing about his self-control. The person/people who sought to paint him as an addict are implying that he has no self control. I myself am "big-boned" That is neither a character issue (in this or any context) nor is it a result of a "complete lack of self control." Read what I write and stop processing what you think I mean. It makes communicating with you impossible.

[mvp 78]

Pablo will be in the lineup on opening day. That means there'll be an extra table open at OCB for you self loathing fatty fatty fat fats.

[moonslav59]

Here's an old story on Pablo visiting the Sox in Tampa this year:

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/clubhouse_insider/2016/08/pablo_sandoval_visibly_in_better_shape_says_hes_learned_his

 

Some nuggets...

 

Pablo Sandoval looks terrific.

 

... Sandoval has been working out six days a week with minor leaguers at the Red Sox’ complex in Fort Myers.

 

“One of the things I put in my mind that I have to work,” said Sandoval, who looks like he’s lost a good chunk of weight during his recovery. “I learned a lot of things about this surgery so I had to work hard to be on the field as on soon as possible.

 

“My shoulder is not back to normal but I feel a lot better, started doing a lot of things in the field. Starting hitting ground balls, started playing catch, handling the ball. There are a lot of things I’ve been doing, working out, doing things so I can get better and better every day.”

 

Sandoval’s size may have weighed heavy on the minds of Red Sox fans, but those in the front office have been mostly quiet when asked to discuss it publicly. One of his former trainers told the Herald in April that Sandoval has an eating problem and “needs a babysitter” to help him stay in baseball shape.

 

Sandoval did not directly answer questions about that on Wednesday, but he openly admitted to some regrets about how this season played out for him.

 

“It’s tough, but you learn your lesson from all the mistakes you make,” he said. “You’re human, you make mistakes. You have to put all the things in the past. So you have to work out and have good people around you to support you every single day. I’ve got that situation already, with my family around to support me every single day.

 

Sandoval said he feels “way different” than he did in spring training, when his poor defense at third base and inconsistent plate approach left him on the bench to start the year.

 

“It depends how you feel, how you want to handle things,” he said. “Now that I learned my lesson, I have to prove myself that I can do a better job out there.”

 

Sandoval said the birth of his son three months ago has been inspiring him to come back.

 

“That’s one of those things every time I wake up, looking at him, I want to do everything for him so he can see me back on the field and play baseball,” Sandoval said. “That’s the thing I put in my mind every single day.”

 

“I’ll do whatever,” Sandoval said. “I’m just going to come here the best I can. I just want to do the best things I can do on the field, do the things I know how to in baseball, have fun. I want to prepare myself to be ready for next year.

 

“I know I can put more pressure out there and do a better job out there,” he said. “Things happen for a reason. I’m happy but not I’m not satisfied with the things I’m doing. I’m going to keep working hard, continue my rehab and be better for next year.”

 

Sandoval is making $17 million this year and is under contract to make $17 million in 2017, $18 million in 2018 and $18 million in 2019 with a club option for $17 million ($5 million buyout) in 2020.

 

“Pablo is a supremely talented veteran and a proven winner,” Red Sox principal owner John Henry said in an email to the Herald last week. “He knows exactly what he needs at this point in his career. With Papi leaving we absolutely need Pablo to return to the form we’ve seen in the past. This year and last were frustrating for him and frustrating for us. We need him next year.

 

“I think a lot of people wrote off Hanley last year. He’s an extremely important part of the offense and the defense now.”

 

Sandoval said he’s never been so motivated.

 

“I miss the game,” he said. “I watch every single day, I miss those guys but sometimes you have to put yourself in the situation, in the right situation to be better.”

 

[harmony]

I implied no such thing about his self-control. The person/people who sought to paint him as an addict are implying that he has no self control. I myself am "big-boned" That is neither a character issue (in this or any context) nor is it a result of a "complete lack of self control." Read what I write and stop processing what you think I mean. It makes communicating with you impossible.

Most everyone can agree that a player should be held accountable. The issue is how a player should be held accountable.

 

In terms of player accountability, a person with a character flaw is one who is unable to distinguish between calling a player a "fat slob" and mindfully addressing the player's shortcomings.

 

The "fat slob" designation is an attack on character. What does that designation achieve? Alternative measures can result in accountability.

[a700hitter]

Most everyone can agree that a player should be held accountable. The issue is how a player should be held accountable.

 

In terms of player accountability, a person with a character flaw is one who is unable to distinguish between calling a player a "fat slob" and mindfully addressing the player's shortcomings.

 

The "fat slob" designation is an attack on character. What does that designation achieve? Alternative measures can result in accountability.

It is an attack on his appearance, not his character. Is it insulting? Yes. And that is how I meant it. If he was slow, I would call him a turtle or a snail. There are all sorts of insults that abound for poor performance. I usually just stick with "he stinks", but Pablo's under-performance is related to his weight, hence I call him a fat slob. He broke his belt for crying out loud. Go find a safe space on some other Sports Forum if you can't handle it.

[Kimmi]

Most everyone can agree that a player should be held accountable. The issue is how a player should be held accountable.

 

In terms of player accountability, a person with a character flaw is one who is unable to distinguish between calling a player a "fat slob" and mindfully addressing the player's shortcomings.

 

The "fat slob" designation is an attack on character. What does that designation achieve? Alternative measures can result in accountability.

 

Bingo.