8/15 new city, new Dbags

[Kimmi]

Normally, when we win, I just put the pain of Farrell's stupid moves behind and move forward. Yesterday, was a very tense game, and imo Farrell did a horrible job of managing the pitching and batting order late in the game. Whether you are a stathead or not, the moves that he didn't make had a much higher chance of success. They were obvious enough that the hometown announcers questioned/criticized the moves.

 

That is simply not true. As I said, I agree with you that they seem like the obvious moves, but they did not have a 'much higher' chance of success.

[Bellhorn04]

LOL I don't know how any of us survive a season.

 

I was so bad off in this game, after the Guardians doubled to lead off the 9th, I had to look at the final score to see if we won. (I DVR'd the game so it was already over by the time we I got to the 9th.) Once I saw that we won, I was able to finish watching the 9th. I couldn't handle it otherwise.

 

I handled it differently. I followed the reactions on the game thread here.

[Maxbialystock]

It was definitely painful, but I watched almost all of it.

[a700hitter]

Ok, of the 3 which is clearly superior offensively in that situation? (2nd and 3rd / 0 outs)

#1 has had 1 AB in that situation.

#2 has never had an AB in that situation.

#3 has had 5 AB's in that situation.

which is clearly superior?

 

not much to differentiate in that situation. so leaving that days starting catcher in up by a run to finish his job while giving your everyday catcher a full day off is not an idiotic (or whatever term you want to use) decision. it's a baseball decision.

You go with the clearly better offensive player in that situation. Are you saying that is Holiday? If so, I would disagree strongly. But if that is your choice, we will have to agree to disagree. I think Holiday is the worst offensive player on the roster, unless he PH Wright.

[a700hitter]

That is simply not true. As I said, I agree with you that they seem like the obvious moves, but they did not have a 'much higher' chance of success.

i disagree.

[a700hitter]

No need to resort to insults.

it was the emotion of the game thread, but you are right.

[Slasher9]

You go with the clearly better offensive player in that situation. Are you saying that is Holiday? If so, I would disagree strongly. But if that is your choice, we will have to agree to disagree. I think Holiday is the worst offensive player on the roster, unless he PH Wright.

 

no. i am trying to say there is no "clearly superior" player in that situation. so it makes sense to me to give the regular catcher the full day off and not risk going into extra innings with no backup by PHing with 0 outs in a game you are winning by a run in the 9th inning......

[Slasher9]

and who's to say Leon doesnt call for the wrong pitch selection in the bottom of the 9th?

[Slasher9]

and who's to say Leon doesnt call for the wrong pitch selection in the bottom of the 9th?

 

good point.

Kimbrell era by catcher:

Leon: 6.75

haladay: 0.00

Hanigan: 1.74

vaz: 1.62

 

clearly the manager knows better than to put leon behind the plate in a one run game with how terrible he does calling/catching kimbrell.....

[a700hitter]

no. i am trying to say there is no "clearly superior" player in that situation. so it makes sense to me to give the regular catcher the full day off and not risk going into extra innings with no backup by PHing with 0 outs in a game you are winning by a run in the 9th inning......

What are the stats on how many times a catcher is forced to leave a game in the late innings of a game do to injury-- probably statistically insignificant, and it is my position that there were at least a couple of hitters on our bench who are clearly superior to Holiday as a hitter.

[a700hitter]

good point.

Kimbrell era by catcher:

Leon: 6.75

haladay: 0.00

Hanigan: 1.74

vaz: 1.62

 

clearly the manager knows better than to put leon behind the plate in a one run game with how terrible he does calling/catching kimbrell.....

Agree to disagree.

[Slasher9]

What are the stats on how many times a catcher is forced to leave a game in the late innings of a game do to injury-- probably statistically insignificant, and it is my position that there were at least a couple of hitters on our bench who are clearly superior to Holiday as a hitter.

 

see post 279. if anything, i am PHing for leon with haladay late in the game in any game up by at least a run in which kimbrel is going to get a sniff in.....

 

(no, im not really phing for him...but i may send haladay out in the defensive 9th)

[a700hitter]

see post 279. if anything, i am PHing for leon with haladay late in the game in any game up by at least a run in which kimbrel is going to get a sniff in.....

 

(no, im not really phing for him...but i may send haladay out in the defensive 9th)

i would rather send Kimbrel out with a 2 run lead and Leon catching than Holiday with a 1 run lead.

[illinoisredsox]

Maybe Leon was banged up a little and Farrell wanted him to have the whole day off before heading for Baltimore. Not hard to imagine a foul tip or something hitting a fleshy or not so fleshy part over the weekend.

 

Not saying he was or wasn't, but it's one of the "inside" knowledge thing that managers know and we as fans are not privy to.

[Kimmi]

Maybe Leon was banged up a little and Farrell wanted him to have the whole day off before heading for Baltimore. Not hard to imagine a foul tip or something hitting a fleshy or not so fleshy part over the weekend.

 

Not saying he was or wasn't, but it's one of the "inside" knowledge thing that managers know and we as fans are not privy to.

 

Exactly.

[a700hitter]

Maybe Leon was banged up a little and Farrell wanted him to have the whole day off before heading for Baltimore. Not hard to imagine a foul tip or something hitting a fleshy or not so fleshy part over the weekend.

 

Not saying he was or wasn't, but it's one of the "inside" knowledge thing that managers know and we as fans are not privy to.

maybe he caught the "Poops" from Pedroia. I hear that it is going around. Maybe he belongs to a religion that will not let him work until after Sundown on a Monday in August. These are possibilities of things we were not privy to.

[mvp 78]

There's no trap door under that jacket?

 

I promise nothing.

[mvp 78]

I happen to agree with you on both calls. I would have pinch hit Leon for Holaday, and I would not have allowed Abad to face the righty.

 

That said, I am willing to give Farrell the benefit of the doubt. As far as why Farrell didn't bring Ziegler in, Francona would have countered with a lefty. Farrell preferred the matchup he had with Abad. It worked out.

 

 

And when it doesn't work out, are we allowed to complain that it was the wrong move, or is it still the right move because it was a Farrell decision?

[Bellhorn04]

Like I say, one of the beauties of this game is that you can have debates about stuff that go on forever.

[Maxbialystock]

good point.

Kimbrell era by catcher:

Leon: 6.75

haladay: 0.00

Hanigan: 1.74

vaz: 1.62

 

clearly the manager knows better than to put leon behind the plate in a one run game with how terrible he does calling/catching kimbrell.....

 

My goodness. Looks like Leon has issues catching Kimbrel, and we can be sure Holiday has not because he did a great job catching him in the 9th. For all we know Leon would have had another PB or maybe failed to get someone stealing 3B. Leon would appear to be the wrong guy to insert into a close game in which the Sox have a narrow lead and need to preserve it. Let's not forget that Leon was also not warmed up, which made him even more likely to make a costly mistake. He also would have been "cold" pinch-hitting.

 

Meanwhile, the sagacious Farrell knew that, even if Holiday K'd, he still had too good shots at at driving guys home with Benintendi and Pedroia coming to bat.

 

Were I Farrell's lawyer, I think I would move to have the case thrown out for lack of evidence. Keeping Holiday in was the only sensible move.

[a700hitter]

My goodness. Looks like Leon has issues catching Kimbrel, and we can be sure Holiday has not because he did a great job catching him in the 9th. For all we know Leon would have had another PB or maybe failed to get someone stealing 3B. Leon would appear to be the wrong guy to insert into a close game in which the Sox have a narrow lead and need to preserve it. Let's not forget that Leon was also not warmed up, which made him even more likely to make a costly mistake. He also would have been "cold" pinch-hitting.

 

Meanwhile, the sagacious Farrell knew that, even if Holiday K'd, he still had too good shots at at driving guys home with Benintendi and Pedroia coming to bat.

 

Were I Farrell's lawyer, I think I would move to have the case thrown out for lack of evidence. Keeping Holiday in was the only sensible move.

Max, as a lawyer you would go broke if you took cases on a contingency basis.

 

Let's keep a lookout for Farrell replacing Leon in 9th innings because he has issues catching Kimbrel. I don't even think this entered into Farrell's thinking. He would need an additional neuron to give it this much thought.

Edited August 16, 2016 by a700hitter

[Maxbialystock]

And when it doesn't work out, are we allowed to complain that it was the wrong move, or is it still the right move because it was a Farrell decision?

 

I like the use of the word "right" because it underscores where we disagree. To me almost all managerial decisions are "right" because they have logic, experience, stats, and timely advice behind them regardless of the outcome.

[a700hitter]

I like the use of the word "right" because it underscores where we disagree. To me almost all managerial decisions are "right" because they have logic, experience, stats, and timely advice behind them regardless of the outcome.

And sometimes they don't and those are the times that I speak up.

[Maxbialystock]

Max, as a lawyer you would go broke if you took cases on a contingency basis.

 

Let's keep a lookout for Farrell replacing Leon in 9th innings because he has issues catching Kimbrel. I don't even think this entered into Farrell's thinking. He would need an additional neuron to give it this much thought.

 

Actually, I would expect Leon to be kept in a game when Kimbrel was closing if only because he would not be "cold." Plus he has the good bat in case Kimbrel gets hit and the Sox need to come back. Plus there is additional risk anytime you sub for your catcher.

[mvp 78]

And sometimes they don't and those are the times that I speak up.

 

And you're still wrong for it! The manager is always right.

[a700hitter]

Actually, I would expect Leon to be kept in a game when Kimbrel was closing if only because he would not be "cold." Plus he has the good bat in case Kimbrel gets hit and the Sox need to come back. Plus there is additional risk anytime you sub for your catcher.

Oh yes, that huge risk of the catcher getting injured in the 9th inning and not being able to continue which happens almost never. Of course you have to back off the "Leon has trouble catching Kimbrel argument" because we both know that that never entered into Farrell's thinking.

[Maxbialystock]

And sometimes they don't and those are the times that I speak up.

 

Actually, you speak up during or after almost every game because you believe that managers in general but especially Farrell do not meet your standard of logic. The upside of your approach is that it almost invariably leads to a discussion or argument, which is good for a discussion board. If everyone agreed with me, this would be a pretty dull blog site. Contrary is good.

[a700hitter]

And you're still wrong for it! The manager is always right.

I had a paralegal who was a notary and didn't understand the rules around being a notary. When I pointed out that she was going about things the wrong way, she told me that her professor told her to do it that way and he had to be right because he was the professor. I asked her for something in a rule or reg that supported her assertion. The next day she came in with a very professional brochure that said exactly what she had told me the day before. I asked her what the source was for the pamphlet as it contained no citation. Her answer was that her professor wrote it. I responded -- well, he was wrong when he said it and he was wrong when he wrote it. Her response: " but he is the professor."

[a700hitter]

Actually, you speak up during or after almost every game because you believe that managers in general but especially Farrell do not meet your standard of logic. The upside of your approach is that it almost invariably leads to a discussion or argument, which is good for a discussion board. If everyone agreed with me, this would be a pretty dull blog site. Contrary is good.

I only criticize the manager when I think he is wrong. My low opinion of managerial intelligence is another issue. If you disagree with the latter, good for you. I don't see a need to debate that. But I will only argue about moves that I think are wrong.

[Spudboy]

I had a paralegal who was a notary and didn't understand the rules around being a notary. When I pointed out that she was going about things the wrong way, she told me that her professor told her to do it that way and he had to be right because he was the professor. I asked her for something in a rule or reg that supported her assertion. The next day she came in with a very professional brochure that said exactly what she had told me the day before. I asked her what the source was for the pamphlet as it contained no citation. Her answer was that her professor wrote it. I responded -- well, he was wrong when he said it and he was wrong when he wrote it. Her response: " but he is the professor."

 

I had a friend who called such people "Educated Fools".