Red Sox Acquire Drew Pomeranz

[a700hitter]

Bedard had a decent career prior to coming to Boston. His numbers in Seattle that year had been good. The Sox didn't really give up anything valuable in return.

He had just hurt his knee the day before and then we got him. His knee injury was known to us. There were better options available. He was a left handed Clay in that he couldn't stay healthy at that juncture of his career. Plus, his stuff was gone, especially with a bum knee.

[mvp 78]

I am including Theo in my statement.

 

2011: Bedard who was one of the better pitchers available

2010: Lost year, got Salty

2009: VMart

2008: Moved Manny, got Jason Bay

[a700hitter]

2011: Bedard who was one of the better pitchers available

2010: Lost year, got Salty

2009: VMart

2008: Moved Manny, got Jason Bay

VMart was a good one. Do you notice that you haven't listed any good pitcher acquisitions? That has always been the big failing -- pitching.

[mvp 78]

He had just hurt his knee the day before and then we got him. His knee injury was known to us. There were better options available. He was a left handed Clay in that he couldn't stay healthy at that juncture of his career. Plus, his stuff was gone, especially with a bum knee.

 

https://mlbreports.com/2011/08/01/tradedeadline/

 

Doug Fister?

[a700hitter]

Plus, my recollection is that far better pitchers moved at the 2011 trading deadline than Bedard. I could be wrong, but it isn't worth my time to research facts to support a throw away line. I stand by my opinion that DD is more decisive when it comes to making deals to fill needs.

[mvp 78]

Plus, my recollection is that far better pitchers moved at the 2011 trading deadline than Bedard. I could be wrong, but it isn't worth my time to research facts to support a throw away line. I stand by my opinion that DD is more decisive when it comes to making deals to fill needs.

 

Ubaldo? He sucked after getting dealt.

[mvp 78]

Edwin Jackson? I'd hold my nose and trade for him, I guess? Maybe...

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacksed01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker&utm_campaign=Linker

[moonslav59]

Some of us didn't trust Kelly or Buchholz. We were right not to trust them. Once ERod went down, there were 3 question marks in the starting rotation.

 

Some of us also thought we should have planned for an unforeseen injury or significant struggle from a pitcher we projected doing fine this year (Price, Porcello, ERod).

 

Look how bad our rotation ended up being despite Wright having a break-out year- seemingly to some- out of nowhere!

 

Remember, Porcello was a question mark going into 2016 as well, even to a poster like me who had been defending him and the extension more than anyone.

 

Looking at the history of big FA SP'er signings, even Price could have been viewed as not being a slam-sunk to put up ace-like numbers in 2016, though I realize you can't get much closer to "sure bet" than Price.

 

The fact is, and this is not hindsight for me and many many other posters, we started the season with an ace (Price), a pretty good bet on two #3's (Porcello and ERod) and then 8 "wings and a prayer" gambles:

Buchholz

Kelly

Wright (some had him below everyone on the depth chart)

Owens

Johnson

Elias

Barnes

Cuevas/O'Sullivan

 

Look, I get the argument that 2 of these guys rated to do well enough to contribute enough wins to our 4-5 slots. Nobody forsaw a 7.00+ ERA from these guys combined (as starters), but I've always hated the quantity over quality mentality on structuring a rotation. I'm not trying to claim I knew more than Sox management, because I know I don't. I realize my position on quality over quantity seems to contradict my point about needing depth to cover something like the injury and struggles of ERod-someone we viewed as a solid #3 going into 2016, but depth of mediocrity (or worse) and high risk guys like Buch and Kelly never seem to work out.

 

You are right, we went into 2016 with 2 question mark rotation slots and ended up with 3 due to ERod's struggles. We were somewhat lucky that Wright more than made up for ERod, and maybe one could argue we were unlucky that nobody out of Buch, Kelly, Owens, Elias, Johnson and others stepped forward to fill even the 4 slot. I saw it then as poor planning, and I see it now as costing us a great long term prospect in Espinoza to fix the mistake made last winter.

 

I'm glad we have Pomeranz, but I'm not going to lie and say I approve of the time and way we went about getting him or someone like him.

 

[a700hitter]

Bedard did nothing for us and even the article that you cited said "The key to this deal is Erik Bedard for the Red Sox. If he stays healthy, and that is a big if, the Red Sox might have a valuable addition to their starting rotation." The "if" was answered in his prior start, he hurt his knee.

[mvp 78]

We were more than "somewhat lucky" with what Wright has provided. We basically walked into a bank, grabbed a bunch of cash, fled and the bank just shrugged their shoulders.

[mvp 78]

Bedard did nothing for us and even the article that you cited said "The key to this deal is Erik Bedard for the Red Sox. If he stays healthy, and that is a big if, the Red Sox might have a valuable addition to their starting rotation." The "if" was answered in his prior start, he hurt his knee.

 

Ok, but who was far and away better at that deadline?

[mvp 78]

No one dealt was THAT much better than Bedard and they didn't give up anything of value for him.

[Nick]

Some of us also thought we should have planned for an unforeseen injury or significant struggle from a pitcher we projected doing fine this year (Price, Porcello, ERod).

 

Look how bad our rotation ended up being despite Wright having a break-out year- seemingly to some- out of nowhere!

 

Remember, Porcello was a question mark going into 2016 as well, even to a poster like me who had been defending him and the extension more than anyone.

 

Looking at the history of big FA SP'er signings, even Price could have been viewed as not being a slam-sunk to put up ace-like numbers in 2016, though I realize you can't get much closer to "sure bet" than Price.

 

The fact is, and this is not hindsight for me and many many other posters, we started the season with an ace (Price), a pretty good bet on two #3's (Porcello and ERod) and then 8 "wings and a prayer" gambles:

Buchholz

Kelly

Wright (some had him below everyone on the depth chart)

Owens

Johnson

Elias

Barnes

Cuevas/O'Sullivan

 

Look, I get the argument that 2 of these guys rated to do well enough to contribute enough wins to our 4-5 slots. Nobody forsaw a 7.00+ ERA from these guys combined (as starters), but I've always hated the quantity over quality mentality on structuring a rotation. I'm not trying to claim I knew more than Sox management, because I know I don't. I realize my position on quality over quantity seems to contradict my point about needing depth to cover something like the injury and struggles of ERod-someone we viewed as a solid #3 going into 2016, but depth of mediocrity (or worse) and high risk guys like Buch and Kelly never seem to work out.

 

You are right, we went into 2016 with 2 question mark rotation slots and ended up with 3 due to ERod's struggles. We were somewhat lucky that Wright more than made up for ERod, and maybe one could argue we were unlucky that nobody out of Buch, Kelly, Owens, Elias, Johnson and others stepped forward to fill even the 4 slot. I saw it then as poor planning, and I see it now as costing us a great long term prospect in Espinoza to fix the mistake made last winter.

 

I'm glad we have Pomeranz, but I'm not going to lie and say I approve of the time and way we went about getting him or someone like him.

 

 

I just can't believe we wasted 25 freaking starts on Kelly in 2015....AND we still didn't know what we were going to get out of him...

[moonslav59]

For purely discussion, shits & giggle purposes... Lets take the last 3 trades for Hill, Ziegler, & Pomeranz and pretend it was all in the same deal w/ just one other team ( including what we gave up of course). Does it all look better in this light? I'm just curious what posters think...

 

Personally, I wouldn't have traded Espinoza for all all 3 combined.

 

I think Espinoza is going to be a great pitcher. I realize it's speculation, but the upside was so great, I didn't think what we got back balanced it out. (I also liked Basabe, but was okay with that deal.)

 

I'm not upset about the Pomeranz trade. His 2.4 years of control at a low cost is a big plus.

[a700hitter]

Can anyone think of an impact pitcher acquired by the Sox at the trading deadline since Mike Boddiker? Peavy was the best effort that I can remember, but he didn't have much of an impact.

[Nick]

Can anyone think of an impact pitcher acquired by the Sox at the trading deadline since Mike Boddiker? Peavy was the best effort that I can remember, but he didn't have much of an impact.

 

Peavy was acquired due to Clay Buchholtz getting 'hurt'.....come to think of it, Clay has COST US a FREAKING TON...it's always covering up for the guy.

[a700hitter]

Ok, but who was far and away better at that deadline?

Fister, and just because other guys didn't get traded doesn't mean that they couldn't be had if the pot had been sweetened. As you pointed out, we gave up nothing for Bedard and that is what we got from him. The need for pitching in 2011 was glaring and critical. They weren't going to get it done on the cheap. Theo did not appropriately address the need of that team down the stretch.

[S5Dewey]

Peavy was acquired due to Clay Buchholtz getting 'hurt'.....come to think of it, Clay has COST US a FREAKING TON...it's always covering up for the guy.

 

Anyone who's here from "that other place" knows that I railed on long and loud about that trade - and still do on occasion - but you're right, the bottom line on that trade was Clay's inability to stay on the field. We're paying this guy $13M/year but covering that guy's ass has cost the team a lot more than that.

[moonslav59]

2011: Bedard who was one of the better pitchers available

2010: Lost year, got Salty

2009: VMart

2008: Moved Manny, got Jason Bay

 

We got Barnes and Owens for VMart after he bolted.

We got Swihart and JBJ for losing Beltre.

We also got Brentz and Workman when we lost Bay to free agency.

We got Ranaudo (who turned into R Ross) for Billy Wagner.

 

Some of those deals just keep on giving.

[mvp 78]

Can anyone think of an impact pitcher acquired by the Sox at the trading deadline since Mike Boddiker? Peavy was the best effort that I can remember, but he didn't have much of an impact.

 

I mentioned the Boddicker trade a few weeks ago. I don't think they've acquired any pitcher like that since during the season. Boddicker was more of a sure thing that Pomeranz.

[a700hitter]

Peavy was acquired due to Clay Buchholtz getting 'hurt'.....come to think of it, Clay has COST US a FREAKING TON...it's always covering up for the guy.

Which is why I argue that we have needed to move on from him, because half seasons are not enough. He always leaves us with a huge expensive hole at the trading deadline.

[a700hitter]

I mentioned the Boddicker trade a few weeks ago. I don't think they've acquired any pitcher like that since during the season. Boddicker was more of a sure thing that Pomeranz.

We gave up a lot for him. Wasn't it Schilling and Brady Anderson? People here would throw themselves off roofs if DD did something like that. Ar the very least, they would need to be hospitalized and medicated until mental stability was restored.

[Maxbialystock]

Anyone who's here from "that other place" knows that I railed on long and loud about that trade - and still do on occasion - but you're right, the bottom line on that trade was Clay's inability to stay on the field. We're paying this guy $13M/year but covering that guy's ass has cost the team a lot more than that.

 

Yes, but when we traded Iglesias for a starter, however mediocre, we had two good SS's in Drew and Bogaerts. More to the point, we made the deal to enhance our chances in the the postseason, and guess what? The Sox won the WS that season. And didn't Iglesias miss the next season 2014?

[Hugh2]

I am including Theo in my statement.

 

Well Theo helped to build 3 championship teams here, and he's still responsible for a lot of the product that is on the field today. And then he went to Chicago and completely turned that organization around.

 

Also, sometimes you can make the right move that doesn't work out in your favor. Eric Gagne looked like a great move in 2007, only problem is the guy completely laid an egg when he got here. Of course it didn't matter at the end of the day because the team he put together was still good enough to win the world series in 2007.

[mvp 78]

We gave up a lot for him. Wasn't it Schilling and Brady Anderson? People here would throw themselves off roofs if DD did something like that. Ar the very least, they would need to be hospitalized and medicated until mental stability was restored.

 

Sox hadn't won in 70 years and they gave up some prospects for a workhorse who pitched well in 1988 and 1990. Schilling was as good in 1990, but they were really trying to strike while Evans, Rice and Boggs were still in their primes. They also had Greenwell and Burks playing like gangbusters. Clemens and Hurst were still in the rotation. That's a team you load up for each and every time.

[mvp 78]

Yes, but when we traded Iglesias for a starter, however mediocre, we had two good SS's in Drew and Bogaerts. More to the point, we made the deal to enhance our chances in the the postseason, and guess what? The Sox won the WS that season. And didn't Iglesias miss the next season 2014?

 

Would Iglesias even be a starter on this team? Bogey was better the moment he came up. My guess is that Iglesias would have been traded at some point anyway.

[a700hitter]

Well Theo helped to build 3 championship teams here, and he's still responsible for a lot of the product that is on the field today. And then he went to Chicago and completely turned that organization around.

 

Also, sometimes you can make the right move that doesn't work out in your favor. Eric Gagne looked like a great move in 2007, only problem is the guy completely laid an egg when he got here. Of course it didn't matter at the end of the day because the team he put together was still good enough to win the world series in 2007.

Yep, Theo did all that, but he wasn't great at everything. In season trades for pitching was one of his weaknesses, unless you think he was perfect.

[a700hitter]

Sox hadn't won in 70 years and they gave up some prospects for a workhorse who pitched well in 1988 and 1990. Schilling was as good in 1990, but they were really trying to strike while Evans, Rice and Boggs were still in their primes. They also had Greenwell and Burks playing like gangbusters. Clemens and Hurst were still in the rotation. That's a team you load up for each and every time.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, I would make that trade.

[mvp 78]

Even with the benefit of hindsight, I would make that trade.

 

I probably would too. There's no telling that Schilling would have played well in Boston early in his career. We probably would have dumped him at some point anyway under Duquette.

[Bellhorn04]

Peavy was acquired due to Clay Buchholtz getting 'hurt'.....come to think of it, Clay has COST US a FREAKING TON...it's always covering up for the guy.

 

The trade for Peavy didn't cost us much, relatively speaking.