Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[Wade Boggs]

Youre right, the Yankees probably won't catch Boston in the standings but they just beat them twice in a 3 game series.....When is Boston going to start winning the games that they should win?

 

They swept AZ last weekend.

[S5Dewey]

Um....I've been thinking about this for a while...Kimbrel has been shaky for a while now.....and Kimbrel's job has been primarily to get 3 outs....Barnes is coming in for 2 innings at times.....It's not fun watching your closer make 30 pitches to try and get 3 outs

 

Ugh. As little as I like getting involved in this thread being an old BDC guy, unnecessary threads, guilt by association, and all that, I just have to throw my $0.02 in here.

 

IMO you should have thought about it a little longer before you posted it. I agree with a lot of what you said - see my post from Monday night in the Kimbrel thread regarding throwing strikes - but at the same time Kimbrel has the track record of being able to get it done, and that cuts a lot of ice with me.

 

He drove me nuts in two straight outings by throwing no fewer than three balls to every hitter he faced, but his history says this is just a blip. Before I replace a closer with his track record I want to be darn sure that I'm replacing him with someone better, and Barnes doesn't strike me as being that someone better.

 

I'm not super-comfortable with either of them at the moment but I still think Kimbrel's ceiling as a closer is a lot higher than Barnes' is.

[sk7326]

Um....I've been thinking about this for a while...Kimbrel has been shaky for a while now.....and Kimbrel's job has been primarily to get 3 outs....Barnes is coming in for 2 innings at times.....It's not fun watching your closer make 30 pitches to try and get 3 outs

 

I don't think Barnes in the 9th improves that situation over Kimbrel.

 

I definitely don't think Kimbrel would be an improvement over Barnes in the mid-innings.

[Maxbialystock]

What does everyone think about Barnes? I think he should be the team's closer....I think he holds his composure more than Kimbrel(maybe because he's been with the organization longer,AL) has in that role....Lots of shaky outings....Anyways, I thought Barnes proved himself when he closed the game against the Yanks but then Farrell went back to Kimbrel once again in the next save opportunity...Also, I think Barnes throws harder than Kimbrel and I don't think he compromises his control....

 

Barnes might be an option later, but right now it makes no sense to back off of Kimbrel who has 21 saves and a lot of closing experience. He throws plenty hard and, more importantly, has a wicked knuckle curve, which causes real problems for every batter he's faced. I think his only issue is control and am satisfied it is not a regular problem. He had those 4 straight walks a week or so ago but has been fine since. He just had two saves in two days and you want to dump him?

 

As for Barnes, I'll be delighted if he can just be an effective setup man in the 7th or 8th inning. A good bullpen is never just one guy. Barnes can make a real difference as a setup man.

[moonslav59]

And we won't be making the playoffs this year with Espinoza in the rotation.

 

We won't be making the playoffs with PomPom in the rotation from 2019-2024 either.

 

You guys act like I don't get why we did it.

 

I actually like PomPom, and when we got him, I showed how his 2016 numbers in 2016 looked a lot like those of a 1-2 slot pitcher.

 

I get that 100% of Espi's value was speculative to highly speculative and Pomeranz's was only slightly speculative.

 

I'm glad we got 2.4 years of cost controlled years and I mentioned how that will help us in other ways beyond just what Pom does for us. Our roster is much better with him on it.

 

That doesn't mean I have to like the trade. I keep getting the feeling you guys think if I just understood why we made the deal, I'd agree it was a good deal.

 

I get the deal. I like Pomeranz. I'm not pretending to be smarter than DD. I just hate the deal... a lot.

[Nick]

Coming into the game, the Red Sox starting pitchers had emerged as the best group in baseball throughout August, claiming a 2.69 ERA and .205 batting average against.

 

Price pitched well tonite. Pomeranz had his best outing of his career the other night. E Rod is back on track. Porcello is money. Hopefully missing couple of rotations will help Wright the ship. Johnson is coming around. Owens took couple of steps forward.

 

Why does it always take until August for this staff get its act together?

[Dojji]

Because we keep trying to rebuild our rotation from the ground up

 

Count your blessings. The team stayed in contention while the rotation was sorting itself out.

[Nick]

Because we keep trying to rebuild our rotation from the ground up

 

Count your blessings. The team stayed in contention while the rotation was sorting itself out.

 

Oh believe me, I'm ecstatic. Obviously Sox Management was very wrong about Buchholtz and Kelly. They need to own up to it. Sounds to me like we need to hire more pitching gurus.

[Nick]

Barnes might be an option later, but right now it makes no sense to back off of Kimbrel who has 21 saves and a lot of closing experience. He throws plenty hard and, more importantly, has a wicked knuckle curve, which causes real problems for every batter he's faced. I think his only issue is control and am satisfied it is not a regular problem. He had those 4 straight walks a week or so ago but has been fine since. He just had two saves in two days and you want to dump him?

 

As for Barnes, I'll be delighted if he can just be an effective setup man in the 7th or 8th inning. A good bullpen is never just one guy. Barnes can make a real difference as a setup man.

 

You mean Noble Barnes that walked 3 straight with 6-3 lead?

[SoxHop]

This has nothing to do with someone being right or wrong to me. i honestly hope that Espinoza becomes the great pitcher that some think that he might become. I'm patient as well but my time frame is obviously different than yours. If Pomeranz is able to pitch to a mid rotation or even higher level for us, it is quite possible that he will be responsible for between 40 and 50 wins for us at the major league level before Espinoza throws a ball in the majors. In my opinion, it was a good deal today as well as going forward. I don't agree with you but I value your opinion and realize that there are supporting arguments for either side. I don't think that this will be the last time the Sox use their young prospects as assets either. We can debate how we should use them until the cows come home, but we aren't making the ultimate decisions.

 

I'm on this wavelength too.........

 

we're in it this year........... we had to take a chance to arm up at a cost to get to the playoffs...........

 

Espinoza is far down the line............... Pom may help us get to the playoffs and be a solid rotation piece...........

 

If Espinoza turns into the next Pedro.......... I totally retract all of this.......

[moonslav59]

Well, the Sox did make one huge effort to build the rotation from the top last winter in signing Price.

 

I think they did own up to their Kelly and Buch choices by booting them out of the rotation.

 

The staff is looking real good right now, despite having Wright on the DL and ERod leaving his last start early with Hammy issues.

 

Funny thing is, a week ago, some posters seemed ready to throw in the towel.

[moonslav59]

I'm on this wavelength too.........

 

we're in it this year........... we had to take a chance to arm up at a cost to get to the playoffs...........

 

Espinoza is far down the line............... Pom may help us get to the playoffs and be a solid rotation piece...........

 

If Espinoza turns into the next Pedro.......... I totally retract all of this.......

 

I totally get why they chose to make this type of deal over doing nothing or going blockbuster big for Sale. Pomeranz is a good pitcher at a low cost for 2 more years after this.

 

I'm not against trading top prospects, even though it seems like I am, since I've hated all our recent trades.

 

I wanted to get an ace-type SP'ers for a package, but now that we've spent some top resources on a high paid closer and a 3 slot SP'er, I'm not sure I can be for trading several top prospects for an ace, because our farm would be left almost totally empty.

 

I'm not trying to be overly critical of Sox management, because I have no idea what it would have taken to get an ace. If I knew, maybe I'd be fine with these trades as alternatives. I'm arguing more about theory, because nobody here really knows what all the choices were. In theory, I think we could have gotten a much better SP'er than Pomeranz for Espi, Margot, Guerra and then maybe adding Swihart or Devers.

 

I know that's a steep price to pay, but to me, it's easier to find a closer and by getting a number 1, our current 2 (Porcello) would be our #3. Wright would be our 4, and ERod would be our 5, we wouldn't need a #3. I'm fine with people disagreeing and debating the what ifs and the theories of here and now value vs speculative value. Looking back on the Beckket/Lowell for HanRam/A Sanchez trade, one can argue from both sides of that trade pretty easily.

 

[Slasher9]

Kimbrel has gotten the job done in save situations, he's 21 out of 23 chances (plus the "hold" he was given in the 4 walk game last week, he didn't blow the save but he did pitch his way out of it.) He also is unscored on in 33/40 appearances. When Kimbrel blows up, he blows up spectacularly, but his issues have generally come in tied games and games where the Sox are behind. Given his psyche, I don't see putting him in a set-up role as working very well. And I acknowledge he's had some high wire acts, but overall he's gotten the job done. Not to mention he's got close to 250 major league saves over the past 6-7 years. Even Mariano Rivera, the GOAT, would blow a few saves a year.

 

Barnes has been spectacular at times and decidedly mediocre at others. Yeah, he's 1/1 in saves and has 10 holds, but he's been scored on in 15 out of 46 appearances and only lately has begun making regular appearances in the 8th inning.

 

Now is not the time to experiment.

 

great post IL.

 

personally i think dalas is trolling.

[greenwell]

great post IL.

 

personally i think dalas is trolling.

 

I agree, but he's pretty good at it. Very subtle.

[Spudboy]

great post IL.

 

personally i think dalas is trolling.

 

Or maybe he just does not know what he is talking about. That happens around here.

[Dojji]

I think our rotation is going to be in a much, MUCH better shape next year. We had to do a near-complete revolution in our rotation this year and none of our opening day projections actually worked out.

 

We will be in a position to know a lot more about the pitching talent we bring to the table next year, especially if Clay Buchholz is not a part of the mix and we've brought in a nice professional swing man type or get some productivity out of Owens, Johnson or Elias to replace him

[Dojji]

great post IL.

 

personally i think dalas is trolling.

 

I'd agree except once upon a time, I was that stupid. In the 06 offseason I was arguing to make Josh Beckett the closer -- because he had good stuff and was struggling in the rotation. I'd also fallen in love with my first "Dojji type" -- Kason Gabbard -- and wanted to see him have a bigger role on the team. I managed to make a thorough ass of myself on both points. Turns out I was right about Gabbard, though not for the right reason, and I was dead dead wrong about Beckett.

 

(I still think that Gabbard could have made it if he had managed to avoid the elbow injuries that destroyed his command and control -- he pitched very, very well for us that year until the deadline when he got traded to Texas)

Edited August 18, 2016 by Dojji

[greenwell]

I totally get why they chose to make this type of deal over doing nothing or going blockbuster big for Sale. Pomeranz is a good pitcher at a low cost for 2 more years after this.

 

I'm not against trading top prospects, even though it seems like I am, since I've hated all our recent trades.

 

I wanted to get an ace-type SP'ers for a package, but now that we've spent some top resources on a high paid closer and a 3 slot SP'er, I'm not sure I can be for trading several top prospects for an ace, because our farm would be left almost totally empty.

 

I'm not trying to be overly critical of Sox management, because I have no idea what it would have taken to get an ace. If I knew, maybe I'd be fine with these trades as alternatives. I'm arguing more about theory, because nobody here really knows what all the choices were. In theory, I think we could have gotten a much better SP'er than Pomeranz for Espi, Margot, Guerra and then maybe adding Swihart or Devers.

 

I know that's a steep price to pay, but to me, it's easier to find a closer and by getting a number 1, our current 2 (Porcello) would be our #3. Wright would be our 4, and ERod would be our 5, we wouldn't need a #3. I'm fine with people disagreeing and debating the what ifs and the theories of here and now value vs speculative value. Looking back on the Beckket/Lowell for HanRam/A Sanchez trade, one can argue from both sides of that trade pretty easily.

 

 

I'm not trying to say that Sale isn't good, but it's interesting that since the trade deadline

Sale: 21.2 IP, 4.15 ERA

E-Rod: 21.2 IP, 2.08 ERA

Pomeranz: 19 IP, 2.37 ERA

 

One of these other 2 pitchers would probably have been gone in a trade for Sale.

[oldtimer]

Buchholz instead of an injured Wright. Hope we don't pay for the base running snafu today. Also, we will have a very tired team out there. MLB got this one wrong.

[kenmeister]

I'd agree except once upon a time, I was that stupid. In the 06 offseason I was arguing to make Josh Beckett the closer -- because he had good stuff and was struggling in the rotation. I'd also fallen in love with my first "Dojji type" -- Kason Gabbard -- and wanted to see him have a bigger role on the team. I managed to make a thorough ass of myself on both points. Turns out I was right about Gabbard, though not for the right reason, and I was dead dead wrong about Beckett.

 

(I still think that Gabbard could have made it if he had managed to avoid the elbow injuries that destroyed his command and control -- he pitched very, very well for us that year until the deadline when he got traded to Texas)

 

Kason Gabbard and Juan Pena both had the potential to be special, but now we'll never know.

[illinoisredsox]

Buchholz instead of an injured Wright. Hope we don't pay for the base running snafu today. Also, we will have a very tired team out there. MLB got this one wrong.

 

What's MLB got to do with any of it? The only time a start time is dictated is when national television (ESPN or Fox) is involved. Otherwise the home team sets it.

 

Every Thursday Tiger home game this year has been a 1:08 start. Unfortunately for the Red Sox, this is the only time it opens a series; the others were/are the final game.

[Slasher9]

I'd agree except once upon a time, I was that stupid. In the 06 offseason I was arguing to make Josh Beckett the closer -- because he had good stuff and was struggling in the rotation. I'd also fallen in love with my first "Dojji type" -- Kason Gabbard -- and wanted to see him have a bigger role on the team. I managed to make a thorough ass of myself on both points. Turns out I was right about Gabbard, though not for the right reason, and I was dead dead wrong about Beckett.

 

(I still think that Gabbard could have made it if he had managed to avoid the elbow injuries that destroyed his command and control -- he pitched very, very well for us that year until the deadline when he got traded to Texas)

 

lol. true enough. we have all come up with doozies from time to time being the "fan"atics that we are.

the reason i think that dalas is trolling is because all his ideas are subtly or not so subtly out of left field. and it hasnt been 1 or 2 players or positions. im not pointing it out to get him banned or anything like that. just this guys opinion of who/what he is doing....

[Spudboy]

I enjoy talk of Dojji Types.

[Dojji]

I enjoy talk of Dojji Types.

 

Every now and again one of those guys comes up good and that's all the impetus I need to keep doing my little bit of research to try to spot the next one

[Dojji]

Oh -- for the record -- one of the guys I'm keeping an eye on is Portland SS Mauricio Dubon. Soxprospects is talking about his potential as a utility man, but I see a mid-tier starting SS here -- the man has no power, but is very patient at the plate, and makes good contact. He's also 21 in Portland, so you have to think there's potential for gap power to develop. Combine a good OBP approach with what Soxprospects calls good defensive skills, and what looks like decent speed, and I could see Dubon finishing his career starting as a SS and leadoff man for some small market team.

[Spudboy]

Every now and again one of those guys comes up good and that's all the impetus I need to keep doing my little bit of research to try to spot the next one

 

I' among others, have given you s*** over the likes of Seshuane Lin sp, lol, and Mark Teahan.

 

But then you came up with Nava and Napoli.

 

To me, Dojji Type is a Talksox exclusive.

 

I look forward to the next one.

[Kimmi]

Coming into the game, the Red Sox starting pitchers had emerged as the best group in baseball throughout August, claiming a 2.69 ERA and .205 batting average against.

 

Price pitched well tonite. Pomeranz had his best outing of his career the other night. E Rod is back on track. Porcello is money. Hopefully missing couple of rotations will help Wright the ship. Johnson is coming around. Owens took couple of steps forward.

 

Why does it always take until August for this staff get its act together?

 

I wonder how much of the improvement in our rotation can be credited to Bannister being in uniform in the dugout. Maybe it's nothing. Then again, maybe it's not.

[Bellhorn04]

I wonder how much of the improvement in our rotation can be credited to Bannister being in uniform in the dugout. Maybe it's nothing. Then again, maybe it's not.

 

I think it has a lot to do with E-Rod and Pomeranz pitching well.

[Kimmi]

I think it has a lot to do with E-Rod and Pomeranz pitching well.

 

I think you're right. They have been able to stabilize the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation.

[Dojji]

I' among others, have given you s*** over the likes of Seshuane Lin sp, lol, and Mark Teahan.

 

But then you came up with Nava and Napoli.

 

To me, Dojji Type is a Talksox exclusive.

 

I look forward to the next one.

 

I still think that Che-Hsuan Lin had a shot to establish himself on someone's bench as a defense guy, but it wound up that no one really had a reason to let him in and give him that shot. It happens that way some times where a guy has the talent but just never gets a chance to break in (see also: Dan Butler)

 

I'm a sucker for the athletic speedy defensive CF types, guys like Joey Gathright, Jarrod Dyson, and Lin. I've seen them pay off enough in late innings to appreciate them in action. Most folks want an outfielder to be a guy who hits a ton though, so it's not hard to see why Lin couldn't break in. A lot of my guys who don't make it fit into that category -- guys that COULD have been useful, but really never got the chance to show one way or the other..