Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[moonslav59]

No. Please refer to what Ussrname said about Tehran. His mechanics and peripherals are very concerning.

 

The only way I trade Swihart or Benintendi is for someone like Gray, Salizar, or Carasco.

 

I doubt we get one of those guys for both Swihart and Benintendi. We probably couldn't get one by adding Devers and Lakins either.

 

I'm not saying I'm willing to trade the farm for one of these guys, but the reality is, that's what it will take.

 

We have to choose wisely.

[moonslav59]

Why do people assume Taz is gone after 2016? Is he a Boris client?

 

Why won't the Sox make a run at signing him?

 

We may, but it will cost way more than he's getting now, so my point was more about the cost needed to replace these three, even if we replace Taz with Taz.

[Bellhorn04]

Why do people assume Taz is gone after 2016? Is he a Boris client?

 

Why won't the Sox make a run at signing him?

 

He's not a Boras client and he should be strongly considered for re-signing. He'll have to be replaced if not.

[moonslav59]

No. Please refer to what Ussrname said about Tehran. His mechanics and peripherals are very concerning.

 

The only way I trade Swihart or Benintendi is for someone like Gray, Salizar, or Carasco.

 

I'm highly skeptical of Teheran as well, but the cost for better pitchers will be way more, and Vizcaino is a gem.

 

I'm hoping we can do better, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Last winter, I suggested trading 3 from Swihart, Devers, Guerra and Margot plus a mid-level prospect for Salazar or Carrasco, and most people thought I was nuts.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I'm highly skeptical of Teheran as well, but the cost for better pitchers will be way more, and Vizcaino is a gem.

 

I'm hoping we can do better, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Last winter, I suggested trading 3 from Swihart, Devers, Guerra and Margot plus a mid-level prospect for Salazar or Carrasco, and most people thought I was nuts.

 

I don't ever remember hearing or reading anything indicating Cleveland wanted to trade anyone in their rotation last winter.

 

Anytime one of those young Indian arms was mentioned somewhere, it always came back to Cleveland trying to win this year, which they are obviously doing.

 

A few of their names may have floated around at last year's deadline, but that sounded more like media speculation. I don't think any of those guys were going to be moved, and I'm sure the Sox checked in on them when they were looking for pitching.

[moonslav59]

I don't ever remember hearing or reading anything indicating Cleveland wanted to trade anyone in their rotation last winter.

 

Anytime one of those young Indian arms was mentioned somewhere, it always came back to Cleveland trying to win this year, which they are obviously doing.

 

A few of their names may have floated around at last year's deadline, but that sounded more like media speculation. I don't think any of those guys were going to be moved, and I'm sure the Sox checked in on them when they were looking for pitching.

 

I did hear rumors on trading one of those guys, but they wanted way too much. Yes, they wanted to compete, so they wanted ML talent (offense) in return- not prospects. I heard CLE asked about JBJ, but I'm not sure if it was related to us getting carrasco or salazar.

 

I suggested a three-way deal sending Cincy's 3Bman to Cleveland. Us adding Swihart (ML ready), Holt and Owens & Johnson (before they fell off a cliff value-wise). Cincy would have gotten Devers and/or Margot or Guerra.

[User Name]

Lots of suggestions. Very little substance. If Cleveland had wanted to move any of them, it clearly could have.

[cp176]

Would you trade him for Chris Sale?

 

You know what - I would not trade Moncada period. I don't know what he will turn out to be but just simply based on what he has done so far and just based on what he looks like in comparison to everybody I saw on both teams the other night, you just walk away saying who was the last player in Portland that had what he has? Obviously you know that I've been a Sox fan for a long time and this kid is unique and could be very special. I saw some video of him this spring. He looked a little bigger than Benintendi. In person, it really is totally different. He is just a kid but he looks like the proverbial man amongst the boys.

[moonslav59]

You know what - I would not trade Moncada period. I don't know what he will turn out to be but just simply based on what he has done so far and just based on what he looks like in comparison to everybody I saw on both teams the other night, you just walk away saying who was the last player in Portland that had what he has? Obviously you know that I've been a Sox fan for a long time and this kid is unique and could be very special. I saw some video of him this spring. He looked a little bigger than Benintendi. In person, it really is totally different. He is just a kid but he looks like the proverbial man amongst the boys.

 

I totally agree. Moncada's upside is too high to risk trading away. I almost feel the same way about Espinoza, but I realize we'll have to give a lot to get controllable greatness in return.

 

Of the big three, I'd deal Benintendi. I think a Beninetndi, Swihart and Devers package should get us a great arm, but I have yet to see or find a name that fits the deal at this point of the season.

[moonslav59]

Lots of suggestions. Very little substance. If Cleveland had wanted to move any of them, it clearly could have.

.Probably so, but we don't know what was offered, if anything, and what it might have taken to get one (assuming talks got that far). Maybe CLE would have wanted JBJ, Swihart, Devers and Guerra. Maybe Holt or Owens/Johnson too.

 

Teams don;t usually float names, unless they are at least considering a deal. They don't want to mess with a player's emotions, psyche or loyalty.

[Nick]

we definitely need to trade Espinoza....Red Sox can not develop pitchers. Trade him before he loses his value....anyone watching the game? E Rod is a freaking joke.

[Nick]

Can we start Kimbrel every game so we can stay in the game after 1st inning?

[a700hitter]

we definitely need to trade Espinoza....Red Sox can not develop pitchers. Trade him before he loses his value....anyone watching the game? E Rod is a freaking joke.

Good point.Even if the guy has the tools, this organization seems incapable of developing pitchers

[Bellhorn04]

I think we might as well get a new pitching coach also. They couldn't do any worse, I assume.

[Spudboy]

I think we might as well get a new pitching coach also. They couldn't do any worse, I assume.

 

I just don't understand why this is so. We had one of the best that was fired and now we have Kenny Rodgers who is supposed to be good as well. All along we have had Farrell who was a pitcher and supposedly an excellent pitching coach. What's the deal when you have that kind of staff and can't help what ails your pitchers?

 

Basically we just start with low quality pitchers and hope for the best. Just my opinion.

[moonslav59]

We never had a good rotation this year. We went with quantity over quality, and now we are paying the price.

[Nick]

Moon you're good at this...seriously how many pitchers have we developed? Go ahead and throw in home grown pitchers we've traded. In a perfect world, with a 10 man staff in major leagues, shouldn't there be 10 Red Sox bred pitcher in the mlb?

[jacksonianmarch]

Buch and ERod have been septic abortions in the rotation. When two spots are cesspools of utter suck, the other 3 guys need to be perfect. If theyre off for one turn of the rotation, you're at the mercy of your offense to avoid a 5 game losing streak

[moonslav59]

Moon you're good at this...seriously how many pitchers have we developed? Go ahead and throw in home grown pitchers we've traded. In a perfect world, with a 10 man staff in major leagues, shouldn't there be 10 Red Sox bred pitcher in the mlb?

 

We suck at drafting and developing pitchers, especially starters, and especially recently.

 

Here's the best 12 I could come up with....

 

SP1) Jon Lester

SP2) Anibal Sanchez

SP3) Felix Doubront

SP4) Clay Buchholz

SP5) Justin Masterson, Frank Montas/ A Ranaudo/ C Kelly

.....Owens/Johnson/W Cuevas

Closer) J Papelbon

RP2) J Tazawa

RP3) Alex Wilson

RP4) H Strickland

RP5) M Barnes

RP6) J Aro/ N Hagadone/ N Ramirez/ Workman

RP7) R Betancourt/ P Light/ W Jerez

 

[Spudboy]

We suck at drafting and developing pitchers, especially starters, and especially recently.

 

Here's the best 12 I could come up with....

 

SP1) Jon Lester

SP2) Anibal Sanchez

SP3) Felix Doubront

SP4) Clay Buchholz

SP5) Justin Masterson, Frank Montas/ A Ranaudo/ C Kelly

.....Owens/Johnson/W Cuevas

Closer) J Papelbon

RP2) J Tazawa

RP3) Alex Wilson

RP4) H Strickland

RP5) M Barnes

RP6) J Aro/ N Hagadone/ N Ramirez/ Workman

RP7) R Betancourt/ P Light/ W Jerez

 

 

Wasn't Daniel Bard home grown?

[curiousd]

My opinion:

 

1. The Badness of Buch does not compare with the much, much worse Badness of ERod. Can they send ERod back to the minors to learn how to get a curve over the plate?

2. The starting pitching after Price, Wright, and Porcello is so horrendous that I am giving up on the Sox even making the wild card this year. So don't trade prospects, wait two years for 2018.

 

Cheers,

 

Curiousd

[moonslav59]

Wasn't Daniel Bard home grown?

 

Yeah, but he's not playiung anymore as far as I know.

 

Here's another way of looking at it. Here are our noteworthy pitching draft picks since 2003:

 

02 Lester (2nd rd)03 Papelbon (4th round)/Abe Alvarez (2nd rd)

04 Cla Meredith (6th rd)

05 Buchholz (#42 pick)/ C Hansen (#26)/ M Bowden (#47)

06 D Bard (#28)/Masterson (2nd Rd)/ K Johnson (#39)/C Clay (#43)/ D Richardson (5th rd)

07 Hagadone (#55)/ H Strickland (18th rd)/ D Britton (23rd rd)

08 C Kelly (#30)/ Bryan Price (#45)/Stephen Fife (#85)/ K Weiland (#108)

09 A Wilson (#77)

10 A Ranaudo (#39)/ Workman (#57)

11 M Barnes (#11)/ H Owens (#36)/ N Ramirez (#143)

12 B Johnson (#31)/ P Light (#37)/ J Callahan (#87)

13 T Ball (#7)/ Stankiewicz (#45)/ Kyle Martin (#263)

14 M Kopech (#33)/ Jake Cosart (#103)

15 T Lakins (#171)

16 K Groome (#12)

 

International signings:

04 Doubront

06 Matsusaka/S Pimental

07 Roman Mendez

08 Tazawa/ W Cuevas

09 F Montas

10 J Aro

13 Hinojosa

14 Espinoza/ C Acosta

[Bellhorn04]

Giving up this many runs through a full turn of the rotation in late June is a fiasco...Henry and Dombro must be getting a wee bit restless at this point.

[moonslav59]

I'm not saying I want to trade for this guy, but Justin Verlander is still owed $28M a year for 3 more years after this. We could probably get him without losing a top prospect, but our budget would be shot for a few years.

 

Is there anyone else out there better than Verlander, cheaper than Verlander, but still maybe available for less than a top 4 prospect?

[moonslav59]

Giving up this many runs through a full turn of the rotation in late June is a fiasco...Henry and Dombro must be getting a wee bit restless at this point.

 

SP'er lines in the last 5

ERod 2.2 IP 9 runs 12 BB+H

Buch 5.1 IP 5 runs 12 BB+H

Wright 4.2 IP 8 runs 9 BB + H

Price 2.1 IP 6 runs 12 BB+H

Porcello 5.1 IP 4 runs 9 BB+H

Total: 20.1 IP 32 Runs 54 BB+H

(Note: runs not earned runs)

 

[Jack Flap]

Not trying to be a doom-and-gloomer, but the more I watch this team, the more I hate the idea of mortgaging the future in some quixotic attempt to get to the World Series in Papi's final season. In order to even consider trading top prospects, I'd have to see a major turnaround between now and the deadline -- at minimum, Price consistently pitching like the Price we know and a fourth reliable starter emerging -- because the way we've played lately, we are a lot more than just one SP away from being a championship-caliber club.

 

My fear for this summer is that Dombrowski doesn't see it that way and pulls something like the Kimbrel trade on steroids.

[Slasher9]

Rick Porcello. thats my dude right there.

[SoxnCycles]

Rick Porcello. thats my dude right there.

 

Yup, it's about time a pitcher put a stop to the "let's spot them 2 runs in the 1st" crap.

Good games by Shaw and Hanley too.

Both of those guys need to get it going.

Shaw has looked better but Hanley still has a ways to go.

 

And yes, I know "it's the Rays and they suck", but when you're in a funk as bad as the Sox were, you have to start with the team that's in front of you.

 

The good news is they play them again in 10 days, back in Fenway.

[mvp 78]

Rick Porcello. thats my dude right there.

 

Yup. They have 3 starters that are good enough to keep this team competitive for the rest of the year. Just need to figure out the last 2 rotation spots.

[Emp9]

Yup, it's about time a pitcher put a stop to the "let's spot them 2 runs in the 1st" crap.

Good games by Shaw and Hanley too.

Both of those guys need to get it going.

Shaw has looked better but Hanley still has a ways to go.

 

And yes, I know "it's the Rays and they suck", but when you're in a funk as bad as the Sox were, you have to start with the team that's in front of you.

 

The good news is they play them again in 10 days, back in Fenway.

 

HanRam & Shaw are pretty even on the season. HanRam is having the better month, better last 7 games. I might say tgat he should be though.