Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[southpaw777]

Buchholz' stuff may play up though. We can't make a definitive statement without him actually pitching.

 

He looked pretty damn good to me. Maybe being pissed off about it works for him. Maybe getting out of a daily routine as a starter will help him in some way.

Personally, I think a good clay in the rotation may be needed come august. Leaving him in the pen too long wont allow him to be as effective as a starter if hes needed. Maybe going down to AAA to work things out for a few starts is best at this point. A phantom injury is needed or i believe he will have to go through waivers first...

[S5Dewey]

He looked pretty damn good to me. Maybe being pissed off about it works for him. Maybe getting out of a daily routine as a starter will help him in some way.

Personally, I think a good clay in the rotation may be needed come august. Leaving him in the pen too long wont allow him to be as effective as a starter if hes needed. Maybe going down to AAA to work things out for a few starts is best at this point. A phantom injury is needed or i believe he will have to go through waivers first...

 

?????

 

With his salary and his upside? Ain't no way that guy's gonna clear waivers!!

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

I still feel Buch will bounce back and be a major factor in our championship run this year.

 

Why do you feel this way?

 

Judging from the peripherals I've seen posted in here and the results so far this year that may seem overly optimistic.

[Dojji]

Why do you feel this way?

 

Judging from the peripherals I've seen posted in here and the results so far this year that may seem overly optimistic.

 

I'm with you. There's no reason to cut Buchholz any slack or give him any benefit of the doubt any longer. We like to like our players, but this guy has broken my heart a few dozen times too many. I want him gone.

[Slasher9]

i dont think he would clear waivers either. but i agree with Lefty...maybe "pissed off Clay" is exactly what he needed to be. JF will give him another high pressure situation and see how he does. we are all aware that injuries to SP can happen at anytime. a Clay with some confidence would be nice to have "just in case".....

[a700hitter]

If Buch gets into 2 or 3 games a week, maybe he will build some arm strength that will eventually help him if he gets back into the rotation. I wonder if being in the bullpen will allow him to pitch past his usual expiration date of the All Star Break.

[sk7326]

For now the pen works - stuff might play up, and not having to turn the lineup over can help too. Also with Wright in the rotation, another long man is good to have.

 

Honestly what the rotation needs is - frankly, what we were expecting from Wright. Decent bulk with perhaps a little more than that. One expects Ervin Santana to be a target as the season unfolds, especially if a Julio Teheran gets too rich. (although he is the clear #1 to me among the targets)

[Emp9]

Man, Wright is just straight dealin' this season. I wanted him in our rotation as our #5, over Kelly, but I never expected him to pitch like our #1. The wild pitches/passed balls don't seem to matter at all. What a bright ray of sunshine he's been through a turbulent cluster of thunder storms that this rotation sometimes is.

[FredLynn]

As of this morning, the Red Sox bullpen ranks fourth in ERA in the league-with Clay Buchholz pitching a total of one inning for them out of the pen. And as of this morning Clay Buchholz's ERA is 6.24 with a WHIP of 1.46 and a K/BB ratiio of 1.58. This is not the kind of pitcher who is likely going to help an already pretty good bullpen, and his presence and attitude ("They moved me to the #$*& bullpen. Write it down") could very well prove disruptive. There is a chance he might turn it around out there, but there is also a chance that he will be a negative factor in a bullpen that is humming along pretty well. Clay had his chance; he didn't perform. He should have been put on waivers and given a chance to perform elsewhere as Dombrowski addresses our real need: a quality SP.

[Spudboy]

As of this morning, the Red Sox bullpen ranks fourth in ERA in the league-with Clay Buchholz pitching a total of one inning for them out of the pen. And as of this morning Clay Buchholz's ERA is 6.24 with a WHIP of 1.46 and a K/BB ratiio of 1.58. This is not the kind of pitcher who is likely going to help an already pretty good bullpen, and his presence and attitude ("They moved me to the #$*& bullpen. Write it down") could very well prove disruptive. There is a chance he might turn it around out there, but there is also a chance that he will be a negative factor in a bullpen that is humming along pretty well. Clay had his chance; he didn't perform. He should have been put on waivers and given a chance to perform elsewhere as Dombrowski addresses our real need: a quality SP.

 

Yes.

 

Additionally, placing Buch in the bullpen has created the need to send Hembree ( say what you will about him, overall he has been good ) back down to Pawtucket in order to activate E-rod.

 

I realize that there will be a constant flow of pitchers and reserve players moving back and forth between AAA and The Show and that Hembree will be back up at some point.

 

I just wonder if Buch will be able to replace Hembree until such time that Hembree returns or when Buch is otherwise dispensed with.

 

Buch could turn into another Eckersley but I very much doubt it.

[FredLynn]

Yes.

 

Additionally, placing Buch in the bullpen has created the need to send Hembree ( say what you will about him, overall he has been good ) back down to Pawtucket in order to activate E-rod.

 

I realize that there will be a constant flow of pitchers and reserve players moving back and forth between AAA and The Show and that Hembree will be back up at some point.

 

I just wonder if Buch will be able to replace Hembree until such time that Hembree returns or when Buch is otherwise dispensed with.

 

Buch could turn into another Eckersley but I very much doubt it.

 

Tell you what else: if I am Hembree, while I am keeping my mouth shut about it, I am wondering what else I have to do to make the club and where is the fairness in what just happened. And if I am Kimbrel (or Layne or Ross or anyone else out there), I am looking at someone being sent down that I know helped make the pen what it is today: fourth rated in the league-and I see someone who certainly didn't earn it enter the brotherhood out there. I know all about the possible need for a spot start at some time down the road, and yes, thats a risk we are taking. And as I wrote earlier, there is some chance that Buchholz turns it around in the pen; its not likely. If Dombrowski can secure one more good SP then Kelly can return to the pen, which I believe is where he is best suited, and HE can spot start if need be. This is a risky move. I hope it doesn't upset the cart out in the pen.

[Spudboy]

Tell you what else: if I am Hembree, while I am keeping my mouth shut about it, I am wondering what else I have to do to make the club and where is the fairness in what just happened. And if I am Kimbrel (or Layne or Ross or anyone else out there), I am looking at someone being sent down that I know helped make the pen what it is today: fourth rated in the league-and I see someone who certainly didn't earn it enter the brotherhood out there. I know all about the possible need for a spot start at some time down the road, and yes, thats a risk we are taking. And as I wrote earlier, there is some chance that Buchholz turns it around in the pen; its not likely. If Dombrowski can secure one more good SP then Kelly can return to the pen, which I believe is where he is best suited, and HE can spot start if need be. This is a risky move. I hope it doesn't upset the cart out in the pen.

 

I don't disagree with anything you have said.

[southpaw777]

?????

 

With his salary and his upside? Ain't no way that guy's gonna clear waivers!!

 

Thats what Im saying, so it HAS to be a phantom injury.

[southpaw777]

Tell you what else: if I am Hembree, while I am keeping my mouth shut about it, I am wondering what else I have to do to make the club and where is the fairness in what just happened. And if I am Kimbrel (or Layne or Ross or anyone else out there), I am looking at someone being sent down that I know helped make the pen what it is today: fourth rated in the league-and I see someone who certainly didn't earn it enter the brotherhood out there. I know all about the possible need for a spot start at some time down the road, and yes, thats a risk we are taking. And as I wrote earlier, there is some chance that Buchholz turns it around in the pen; its not likely. If Dombrowski can secure one more good SP then Kelly can return to the pen, which I believe is where he is best suited, and HE can spot start if need be. This is a risky move. I hope it doesn't upset the cart out in the pen.

 

I believe someone had to go down for Buch right now. That, and Hembree, i believe, just pitched a bunch of innings and would be unavailable anyway. He also has options. Bur really, Im over Buchholz too...

The bottom line is half of these moves in the pen wouldnt have to be made if it was managed better. Farrell has had 3 of his big 4 unavailable one game, not used hot guys and chooses to be OCD with L on L machups, uses Taz in Toronto instead of leaving a hot Barnes in since he only got one out the prior inning. Has to use Kimbrel in a situation he has NEVER been in as a closer and overused him.

For a former pitching coach I really dont like the way he uses them as a Manager. Especially bullpen arms.

[harmony]

Knuckleballer Steven Wright garnered props at FanGraphs on Tuesday:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/its-time-to-buy-into-steven-wright/

[moonslav59]

Why do you feel this way?

 

Judging from the peripherals I've seen posted in here and the results so far this year that may seem overly optimistic.

 

Buch has had many ups and downs over his career, so I'm thinking maybe he'll get it together before the year is over and hit a good stretch.

 

It's a gut feeling not based on any numbers.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Buch has had many ups and downs over his career, so I'm thinking maybe he'll get it together before the year is over and hit a good stretch.

 

It's a gut feeling not based on any numbers.

 

So, basically, hoping.

[Dojji]

You know, I didn't realize Hanigan was hitting so bad. With him having this much trouble hitting, is it worth switching over to Sandy Leon, who's supposed to have great hands and might be able to do the Kevin Cash thing?

[moonslav59]

So, basically, hoping.

 

Well, there is a bit of history on my side, but hoping isn't far from the truth.

 

He's had 3 really good seasons out of the 6 prior to this year, although 2 ere with only 16 and 18 GS'd.

 

When he's on, he can be phenomenal. Since 1972, there have been 5305 instances of SP'ers having 100+ iP in a season. The best ERA- seasons in those 45 years are as follows:

 

35 Pedro (2000)

37 Maddux (1994)

39 Maddux (1995)

41 Rogers (1973)

42 Buchholz (2013)

42 Pedro (1999)

...

32) 54 Buchholz (2010)

 

Even his 2015 ERA- of 77 ranks 635th out of 5305 which places that season in the top 12% of all samples in that 45 year span. 3 seasons in the top 12% in the last 6 seasons is nothing to ignore.

 

His two greatest seasons place him in the top .6% or best 6 out of every 1,000 seasons.

 

Yeah, I guess I'm hoping he can come close to those numbers this year, but it's not like one can argue 2 or 3 seasons are a fluke.

 

[moonslav59]

You know, I didn't realize Hanigan was hitting so bad. With him having this much trouble hitting, is it worth switching over to Sandy Leon, who's supposed to have great hands and might be able to do the Kevin Cash thing?

 

I'm not sure any Sox catcher can catch Wright's knuckleball, and I think Hanigan is just in a slump.

Hanigan was one of our best hitters vs LHPs last year.

[Spudboy]

You know, I didn't realize Hanigan was hitting so bad. With him having this much trouble hitting, is it worth switching over to Sandy Leon, who's supposed to have great hands and might be able to do the Kevin Cash thing?

 

Sorry, but this is a bonehead idea.

 

A la Tehan, Lin.

[Dojji]

Sorry, but this is a bonehead idea.

 

A la Tehan, Lin.

 

Right now Hanigan has an OPS of about.470. I dunno about you, but I think Leon can equal that production, and he's supposed to be a world class defender.

 

I just think it wouldn't be a terrible idea to see if he could receive Wright. There are worse backup catchers in the league than Leon would be.

 

And Hanigan is 35 -- he wouldn't be the first catcher to drop off the face of the earth at that age. Is he going to bounce back to the somewhat decent level of offense he's known for? I don't know if he will or won't, but he hasn't done it yet.

 

I wouldn't have even mentioned the idea but Hanigan has been SO bad that you kind of need to examine your options.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Dojji

[StephenCurry30]

Its a fun game me and my buddies play to talk about Joe Kelly. Basically the game is where we pick things we'd rather do then watch Joe Kelly pitch, painful things, boring things,, stupid things.

 

Ill start

 

I would rather get raped by a horse than watch Joe Kelly pitch.

[Emp9]

The only bright spot concerning Kelly & Buchholz is that at least it's still early and we have time to address acquiring another SP. We all knew we should be looking for an upgrade anyhow, even going back to last season, wether that be #3,#2,or a #1, that's a whole different argument. But this will force the issue I think. It sucks we can't depend on these guys, but it's great that we can do something about it.

[southpaw777]

Were def gonna NEED another starter...Buch=Bullpen Kelly=awful Porcello=solid 3 ERod=Needs to bulid stamina and velocity. Left ball up in zone starting in the fourth and was VERY lucky on a lot of pitches. Also lots of help from D. Not fully sold on him yet either. Wright=stellar year so far, but hes still a flutter baller. RA Dickey had a similar CYA winning year though...Price=Ace, but no success in playoffs yet.

We will need three solid starters. Right now I see Price and Wright as the top two. I like what Porcello is doing this year, but still would like an upgrade for the playoffs and the future.

I think we can say goodbye to either JBJ or Swihart...

[Hitch]

Right now Hanigan has an OPS of about.470. I dunno about you, but I think Leon can equal that production, and he's supposed to be a world class defender.

 

I just think it wouldn't be a terrible idea to see if he could receive Wright. There are worse backup catchers in the league than Leon would be.

 

And Hanigan is 35 -- he wouldn't be the first catcher to drop off the face of the earth at that age. Is he going to bounce back to the somewhat decent level of offense he's known for? I don't know if he will or won't, but he hasn't done it yet.

 

I wouldn't have even mentioned the idea but Hanigan has been SO bad that you kind of need to examine your options.

 

He is struggling, but one thing with Hannigan - he seems to have a lot of good at bats. Makes the pitcher work for his out.

[Hitch]

Were def gonna NEED another starter...Buch=Bullpen Kelly=awful Porcello=solid 3 ERod=Needs to bulid stamina and velocity. Left ball up in zone starting in the fourth and was VERY lucky on a lot of pitches. Also lots of help from D. Not fully sold on him yet either. Wright=stellar year so far, but hes still a flutter baller. RA Dickey had a similar CYA winning year though...Price=Ace, but no success in playoffs yet.

We will need three solid starters. Right now I see Price and Wright as the top two. I like what Porcello is doing this year, but still would like an upgrade for the playoffs and the future.

I think we can say goodbye to either JBJ or Swihart...

 

JBJ?

 

 

 

As an aside, I cannot believe Farrell didn't have Clay up much earlier warming up last night. Kelly was done from the first inning. He had nothing.

[Emp9]

Were def gonna NEED another starter...Buch=Bullpen Kelly=awful Porcello=solid 3 ERod=Needs to bulid stamina and velocity. Left ball up in zone starting in the fourth and was VERY lucky on a lot of pitches. Also lots of help from D. Not fully sold on him yet either. Wright=stellar year so far, but hes still a flutter baller. RA Dickey had a similar CYA winning year though...Price=Ace, but no success in playoffs yet.

We will need three solid starters. Right now I see Price and Wright as the top two. I like what Porcello is doing this year, but still would like an upgrade for the playoffs and the future.

I think we can say goodbye to either JBJ or Swihart...

 

Price is definelty a warm weather SP and we can't ignore his post season record. It's great Kelly had option(s?) left. I wish I was wrong and he found success as a SP but he cld still be a nice BP piece for the future. Buchholz had to truly bomb for him to be not worth his contract this season or next, and he has bombed. Porcello has been consistent enough as our #3 and with our defense behind him, I think that will last. In my mind, Wright is the new Buch, only he'll eat a lot more innings and he's much more durable. Let's not expect or demand #1 performances from him every outing. He is what he is. When trading for another SP, they should temporarily forget Wright is pitching so well and go after the best SP (preferably somewhat cost controlled) they can get their hands on.

 

I hope we keep the Killer B's intact with Papi retiring. Swihart is much more expendable and would have the same value or more.

[S5Dewey]

Were def gonna NEED another starter...Buch=Bullpen Kelly=awful Porcello=solid 3 ERod=Needs to bulid stamina and velocity. Left ball up in zone starting in the fourth and was VERY lucky on a lot of pitches. Also lots of help from D. Not fully sold on him yet either. Wright=stellar year so far, but hes still a flutter baller. RA Dickey had a similar CYA winning year though...Price=Ace, but no success in playoffs yet.

We will need three solid starters. Right now I see Price and Wright as the top two. I like what Porcello is doing this year, but still would like an upgrade for the playoffs and the future.

I think we can say goodbye to either JBJ or Swihart...

 

If those are the choices it's a no-brainer.

 

If you liked the idea of this team without JBJ you must have loved last night's game. I saw at least two balls Young didn't get to that JBJ would have caught, both of which led to run(s). In addition, the team played without his OPS >1.00. That's what we're looking at without him.

Edited June 2, 2016 by S5Dewey

[Bellhorn04]

The time is certainly now to try to turn Kelly into a reliever. He's that or nothing.